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By Finfinder
#15138807
annatar1914 wrote:@Finfinder , I'll tell you the same thing I'd tell @Pants-of-dog , to prevent civil unrest and worse, for the sake of the rule of law and to remove doubts, I insist that this should go before the Supreme Court, unless President Trump withdraws his contention of the election before the constitutionally allowed time before hand.


POD can’t be told anything. Even when he asks for evidence and is presented it, he always has to have the out of contact last word until there’s 100 posts. It never ends.
User avatar
By annatar1914
#15138808
This made me laugh out loud.

It is concrete reality that there has been no evidence presented to support the claim of widespread fraud.

It is also concrete reality that this should not go to the SCOTUS as long as there is no evidence that the lower courts made an error.



No, it should not be presented to the SCOTUS if the lower courts have made no errors.

Trump does not get to take it to the SCOTUS just because he does not like what other courts said.



And you would be wrong about me. But since this is irrelevant, you are free to believe whatever insulting things you want about me.


My intention was not to insult you personally, I don't know you. But I do believe that you have a partisan bias which isn't uncommon on any side, but nonetheless colors your perception.

I'll tell you the same thing I'd tell @Finfinder or anyone else, I don't want to see any more civil strife in this country. Taking this to the highest court in the land will accomplish that, and confer much more legitimacy to the winner of the election.
By Rugoz
#15138809
Rancid wrote:I think @Doug64 wants a 1 party state.

Basically, he wants to rig the system so that Republicans always win, but still keep the democrats around so that they can "compete" and say "look, there's another party!", but really, it's just a one party state.


Yeah, it's beyond pathetic.

Doug64 wrote:Why is it that Democrats think their voters are too incompetent to follow common sense laws protecting the integrity of the vote? In this case Georgia already requires a photo ID to vote in person, they're just talking about extending that to mail-in ballots. But apparently providing a photocopy of a photo ID with the ballot is too hard.


Who has a photocopier at home these days? If you get your voting documents by mail that means you're already registered, which required some sort of ID. A signature should suffice.

Fasces wrote:Democrats supported a National ID program to replace the use of SS cards through the 2000s-2010s to GOP opposition, and they generally have no problem with requiring voter ID if two simple things are done:

1: It is free, so that it doesn't constitute a poll tax.

2: It is mailed to the address of the registered voter or at least to the nearest post office (in case of homeless individuals), so as to not constitute a poll tax on the poor by requiring them to take time off work to go to the DMV or other registers office and waste potentially hours of their time.

The real question is why the GOP wants to require additional ID but not make the effort to provide that ID to all possible voters. :roll: Maybe its because their claims of voter fraud are disingenuous and the real aim is to disenfranchise the most marginalized sections of the population.


Isn't that a state issue anyway? If you ask me how states organize elections is none of the POTUS' business. Otherwise abolish the electoral college.
User avatar
By annatar1914
#15138810
Finfinder wrote:POD can’t be told anything. Even when he asks for evidence and is presented it, he always has to have the out of contact last word until there’s 100 posts. It never ends.


I've been here many years now, took a very long break in between, and nothing has changed much, except a hardening of position between the conservatives, the liberals, and the populists/nationalists. As something of a traditionalist and a socialist, it is alarming but not unexpected to see.
By Finfinder
#15138811
annatar1914 wrote:I've been here many years now, took a very long break in between, and nothing has changed much, except a hardening of position between the conservatives, the liberals, and the populists/nationalists. As something of a traditionalist and a socialist, it is alarming but not unexpected to see.


You would think we all could agree on corruption, fraud, and the complete failure of this swamy political establishment.

Joe Biden represents everything that’s wrong with politics and that is their champion now. We’re just so stuck on stupid.
#15138812
The SCOTUS isn't going to waste their time with these lawsuits because the lower court judges already slapped them down for having no merit. Even if they did genuinely want to overturn the election for Trump, doing so would require multiple rulings on multiple cases and destroy the legitimacy of the SCOTUS. It would be an incredibly transparent intercession on the president's behalf done in a slow and deliberate manner. They won't touch these suits with a ten foot pole because having Trump's dunce lawyers show up with zero evidence will embarrass the court, waste everyone's time, and probably get the chud base to send them death threats.

These suits already went before the courts, often in front of Republican appointed judges, and were deemed meritless. Even being given a SCOTUS hearing with the intent to provide a final and definitive ruling against them grants the cases more legitimacy than they deserve. The same people who think they didn't get a legitimate hearing before won't care, and nobody is going to the mat for Trump on this one.

The idea that this will somehow appease the delusional idiots who think the election was stolen is a fantasy.

Finfinder wrote:You would think we all could agree on corruption, fraud, and the complete failure of this swamy political establishment.

Joe Biden represents everything that’s wrong with politics and that is their champion now. We’re just so stuck on stupid.


Good thing Trump did such a good job draining the swamp!
User avatar
By annatar1914
#15138816
Finfinder wrote:You would think we all could agree on corruption, fraud, and the complete failure of this swamy political establishment.

Joe Biden represents everything that’s wrong with politics and that is their champion now. We’re just so stuck on stupid.


Many people on all sides are totally sick of the corrupt political establishment of the West. But they hate the alternatives (except for their own political ideology) even more. And so we tend to think this establishment is preferable to civil strife and social breakdown, that the status quo is preferable to civil wars and revolution.

Is that not a reasonable conclusion after all? Tilden won, but Hayes became President, both parties were forced to change and compromise, and life went on.
By Doug64
#15138817
Rugoz wrote:Who has a photocopier at home these days? If you get your voting documents by mail that means you're already registered, which required some sort of ID. A signature should suffice.

I have a photocopier at home, it's called a scanner and it's connected to my desktop computer. For those that don't have a personal computer with a printer/scanner, so far as I know local libraries still have photocopy machines, and computer centers that might come with printer/scanners as well. And no, signatures don't suffice. First, they're really a terrible way to verify someone's identity whether in person or by mail, which I suspect is why Georgia already requires photo ID for in-person voting. Second, by requiring that mail-in ballots include a photocopy of the photo ID, they would be guaranteeing that whoever is filling out the ballot at least has access to the ID. With that, even if Georgia was to blast out a mass mailing of mail-in ballots to every registered voter in the state, including to residences that might now be occupied by people other than the registered voters that are supposed to be living there, whoever is living there instead of the registered voters couldn't fill out and return the ballots themselves. Also, fraudulent mail-in dumps cease to be a problem, so those unsupervised drop boxes Abrams got placed throughout the state cease to be a threat to the election's legitimacy. There's a reason why the 2005 Carter-Baker Report included as one of its recommendations that voters be required to use the REAL ID card or its equivalent for non-drivers, with the modest alteration that the REAL ID card show whether its holder is a citizen.
By Rugoz
#15138818
Doug64 wrote:I have a photocopier at home, it's called a scanner and it's connected to my desktop computer. For those that don't have a personal computer with a printer/scanner, so far as I know local libraries still have photocopy machines, and computer centers that might come with printer/scanners as well. And no, signatures don't suffice.


Well I don't have a scanner and I never needed a copy of my ID to vote by mail, only to open bank accounts. Nobody here ever questioned the process. At this point you're just obsessed with finding fraud everywhere.
#15138819
Voter fraud would not cease to be a problem because it is not a problem to begin with. Voter fraud is so rare and so negligible that the Trump campaign has consistently been unable to prove it in the courts. Of the few cases that we have, most are made in error and easily caught by our current system. Such as:

-Someone whose house lies on a county line believing they can vote in both counties.

-The released felon who voted and was unaware that she was not eligible to vote, for which she was sent back to prison for five years (which I think we can all agree is ridiculous).

The Venn Diagram for people who think voter fraud is a problem and people who are angry that Trump lost is a perfect circle. You are insisting that solutions must be found for a problem that doesn't exist. There is no reason to make people jump through extra hoops or make them "earn" the right to cast their ballot unless you are ignorant or purposely trying to keep people from voting, which is the purpose of voter ID laws.

Implementing voter ID laws will also not placate rightwingers, as their goal is to discredit the legitimacy of elections rather than ensure they valid. There are no additional measures that can be taken to appease them, because securing the integrity of elections was never their goal in the first place. They will simply find other reasons to cast doubt on the results.
By Sivad
#15138822
Election Fraud Likely In Debbie Wasserman Schultz Victory


Fighting Debbie Wasserman Schultz & Election Fraud w/Tim Canova


Why Did Bernie Abandon Tim Canova & Election Integrity
By Rugoz
#15138823
SpecialOlympian wrote:Implementing voter ID laws will also not placate rightwingers, as their goal is to discredit the legitimacy of elections rather than ensure they valid. There are no additional measures that can be taken to appease them, because securing the integrity of elections was never their goal in the first place. They will simply find other reasons to cast doubt on the results.


I think it's appropriate to ask for ID at registration or when voters aren't registered. But assuming that the registration at the old place gets canceled once people register at a new place, there's really no need for ID when voting by mail. I mean for there to be fraud, somebody would have to leave without canceling their registration at the old place or registering at the new place, then the person now living at the old place would have to forge the signature and send it in. Sure it can happen, but IMO it's unlikely to be a real world issue.
By Sivad
#15138826
Confessions of a voter fraud: I was a master at fixing mail-in ballots

A top Democratic operative says voter fraud, especially with mail-in ballots, is no myth. And he knows this because he’s been doing it, on a grand scale, for decades.

Mail-in ballots have become the latest flashpoint in the 2020 elections. While President Trump and the GOP warn of widespread manipulation of the absentee vote that will swell with COVID polling restrictions, many Democrats and their media allies have dismissed such concerns as unfounded.

But the political insider, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he fears prosecution, said fraud is more the rule than the exception. His dirty work has taken him through the weeds of municipal and federal elections in Paterson, Atlantic City, Camden, Newark, Hoboken and Hudson County and his fingerprints can be found in local legislative, mayoral and congressional races across the Garden State. Some of the biggest names and highest office holders in New Jersey have benefited from his tricks, according to campaign records The Post reviewed.

“An election that is swayed by 500 votes, 1,000 votes — it can make a difference,” the tipster said. “It could be enough to flip states.”

The whisteblower — whose identity, rap sheet and long history working as a consultant to various campaigns were confirmed by The Post — says he not only changed ballots himself over the years, but led teams of fraudsters and mentored at least 20 operatives in New Jersey, New York and Pennsylvania — a critical 2020 swing state.


“There is no race in New Jersey — from city council to United States Senate — that we haven’t worked on,” the tipster said. “I worked on a fire commissioner’s race in Burlington County. The smaller the race, the easier it is to do.”

A Bernie Sanders die-hard with no horse in the presidential race, he said he felt compelled to come forward in the hope that states would act now to fix the glaring security problems present in mail-in ballots.

“This is a real thing,” he said. “And there is going to be a f–king war coming November 3rd over this stuff … If they knew how the sausage was made, they could fix it.”

Mail-in voting can be complicated — tough enough that 84,000 New Yorkers had their mailed votes thrown out in the June 23 Democratic presidential primary for incorrectly filling them out.

But for political pros, they’re a piece of cake. In New Jersey, for example, it begins with a blank mail-in ballot delivered to a registered voter in a large envelope. Inside the packet is a return envelope, a “certificate of mail in voter” which the voter must sign, and the ballot itself.

That’s when the election-rigger springs into action.

Phony ballots

The ballot has no specific security features — like a stamp or a watermark — so the insider said he would just make his own ballots.

“I just put [the ballot] through the copy machine and it comes out the same way,” the insider said.

But the return envelopes are “more secure than the ballot. You could never recreate the envelope,” he said. So they had to be collected from real voters.

He would have his operatives fan out, going house to house, convincing voters to let them mail completed ballots on their behalf as a public service. The fraudster and his minions would then take the sealed envelopes home and hold them over boiling water.

“You have to steam it to loosen the glue,” said the insider.

He then would remove the real ballot, place the counterfeit ballot inside the signed certificate, and reseal the envelope.

“Five minutes per ballot tops,” said the insider.

The insider said he took care not to stuff the fake ballots into just a few public mailboxes, but sprinkle them around town. That way he avoided the attention that foiled a sloppy voter-fraud operation in a Paterson, NJ, city council race this year, where 900 ballots were found in just three mailboxes.

“If they had spread them in all different mailboxes, nothing would have happened,” the insider said.

Inside jobs

The tipster said sometimes postal employees are in on the scam.

“You have a postman who is a rabid anti-Trump guy and he’s working in Bedminster or some Republican stronghold … He can take those [filled-out] ballots, and knowing 95% are going to a Republican, he can just throw those in the garbage.”

In some cases, mail carriers were members of his “work crew,” and would sift ballots from the mail and hand them over to the operative.

In 2017, more than 500 mail-in ballots in New York City never arrived to the Board of Elections for races that November — leaving hundreds disenfranchised. They eventually were discovered in April 2018. “For some undetermined reason, some baskets of mail that were bound to the New York City Board of Elections were put off to the side at the Brooklyn processing facility,” city elections boss Michael Ryan said at the time of discovery.

Nursing homes

Hitting up assisted-living facilities and “helping” the elderly fill out their absentee ballots was a gold mine of votes, the insider said.

“There are nursing homes where the nurse is actually a paid operative. And they go room by room by room to these old people who still want to feel like they’re relevant,” said the whistleblower. “[They] literally fill it out for them.”

The insider pointed to former Jersey City Mayor Gerald McCann, who was sued in 2007 after a razor-thin victory for a local school board seat for allegedly tricking “incompetent … and ill” residents of nursing homes into casting ballots for him. McCann denied it, though he did admit to assisting some nursing home residents with absentee ballot applications.

Voter impersonation

When all else failed, the insider would send operatives to vote live in polling stations, particularly in states like New Jersey and New York that do not require voter ID. Pennsylvania, also for the most part, does not.

The best targets were registered voters who routinely skip presidential or municipal elections — information which is publicly available.

“You fill out these index cards with that person’s name and district and you go around the city and say, ‘You’re going to be him, you’re going to be him,'” the insider said of how he dispatched his teams of dirty-tricksters.

At the polling place, the fake voter would sign in, “get on line and … vote,” the insider said. The impostors would simply recreate the signature that already appears in the voter roll as best they could. In the rare instance that a real voter had already signed in and cast a ballot, the impersonator would just chalk it up to an innocent mistake and bolt.

Bribing voters

The tipster said New Jersey homeless shelters offered a nearly inexhaustible pool of reliable — buyable — voters.

“They get to register where they live in and they go to the polls and vote,” he said, laughing at the roughly $174 per vote Mike Bloomberg spent to win his third mayoral term. He said he could have delivered the same result at a 70 percent discount — like when Frank “Pupie” Raia, a real estate developer and Hoboken nabob, was convicted last year on federal charges for paying low-income residents 50 bucks a pop to vote how he wanted during a 2013 municipal election.

Organizationally, the tipster said, his voter-fraud schemes in the Garden State and elsewhere resembled Mafia organizations, with a boss (usually the campaign manager) handing off the day-to-day managing of the mob soldiers to the underboss (him). The actual candidate was usually kept in the dark deliberately so they could maintain “plausible deniability.”

With mail-in ballots, partisans from both parties hash out and count ballots at the local board of elections — debating which ballots make the cut and which need to be thrown out because of irregularities.

The insider said any ballots offered up by him or his operation would come with a bent corner along the voter certificate — which contains the voter signature — so Democratic Board of Election counters would know the fix was in and not to object.

“It doesn’t stay bent, but you can tell it’s been bent,” the tipster said. “Until the [certificate] is approved, the ballot doesn’t matter. They don’t get to see the ballot unless they approve the [certificate.]”

“I invented bending corners,” the insider boasted, saying once the fixed ballots were mixed in with the normal ones, the bed was made. “Once a ballot is opened, it’s an anonymous ballot.”

While federal law warns of prison sentences of up to five years, busted voter frauds have seen far less punishment. While in 2018 a Texas woman was sentenced to five years, an Arizona man busted for voting twice in the mail was given just three years’ probation. A study by the conservative Heritage Foundation found more than 1,000 instances of documented voter fraud in the United States, almost all of which occurred over the last 20 years.

“There is nothing new about these techniques,” said Hans von Spakovsky, a senior legal fellow at Heritage who manages their election law reform initiative. “Everything he’s talking about is perfectly possible.“

The city Board of Elections declined to answer Post questions on ballot security.

https://nypost.com/2020/08/29/political ... n-ballots/
#15138827
What is up with all these republicans testing positive for COVID-19? It seems every single time I turn on the news some new republican is coming down with COVID. Senate republican Kelly Loeffler who is running to get elected in this January 5, 2021 Georgia Runoff election has now just tested positive for COVID. I haven't seen too many democrats test positive for COVID. I have heard of one or maybe two test positive.

But it seems the vast majority of those politicians testing positive for COVID are republicans. Do republicans not value themselves and their health or what? Do they think that medical experts went through all that schooling and education for nothing? Some of these republicans are showing a lack of respect for themselves, their constituents and the accomplishments and hard work of others with some of the actions they have chosen to take in regards to COVID. What's the matter with these republicans?


Caroline Kenny of CNN wrote:Georgia Republican Sen. Kelly Loeffler has tested positive for Covid-19, her campaign announced.

Loeffler tested positive for the coronavirus on Friday, but a subsequent test came back as inconclusive on Saturday evening, according to campaign spokesperson Stephen Lawson.

Loeffler was maskless with Vice President Mike Pence and Sen. David Perdue during campaign events most of the day Friday. The trio rode on a bus from the airport to two campaign events for Georgia Senate seat runoff elections in January.

"Senator Loeffler took two COVID tests on Friday morning. Her rapid test results were negative and she was cleared to attend Friday's events. She was informed later in the evening after public events on Friday that her PCR test came back positive, but she was retested Saturday morning after conferring with medical officials and those results came back inconclusive on Saturday evening," said Lawson.


https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/21/politics ... index.html
User avatar
By SpecialOlympian
#15138829
Rugoz wrote:I think it's appropriate to ask for ID at registration or when voters aren't registered. But assuming that the registration at the old place gets canceled once people register at a new place, there's really no need for ID when voting by mail. I mean for there to be fraud, somebody would have to leave without canceling their registration at the old place or registering at the new place, then the person now living at the old place would have to forge the signature and send it in. Sure it can happen, but IMO it's unlikely to be a real world issue.


ID is required when you register and when you cast a provisional ballot outside your precinct. Which is how most states currently operate. To be on the voter rolls at your precinct you have to have registered.

Sivad wrote:Confessions of a voter fraud: I was a master at fixing mail-in ballots


Even in your example, provided by an anonymous source from a pro-Trump newspaper, voter fraud is so minimal that in a statewide race it can account for 500-1000 ballots.

Its solutions also demand that large swathes of individual, registered voters possibly be disenfranchised by being forced to vote in person or obtain an ID they may not have the means to obtain (for example, states where IDs can only be obtained on the third Thursday of every month or where DMV offices do not have full hours) because of the actions of professional political operatives actively committing crimes.

The majority of the actions listed in the article are already illegal or unethical but not illegal. If you let someone fill out your ballot for you and sign it then that's still your vote that you're free to cast. Having an elderly person submit a photocopy of their ID alongside their mail-in ballot doesn't change that.

I also question the authenticity of the article because that Voter Impression scheme is a pretty God damned risky move to pull off en masse. All you need is a few infrequent voters to come in and cast their ballot and alarm bells are going to go off somewhere. I sincerely doubt that is being pulled on any sort of mass scale.

Thank you for sharing the results of two minutes of Googling, I guess.
User avatar
By ingliz
#15138837
@annatar1914

SpecialOlympian wrote:in front of Republican appointed judges...

Judge Matthew William Brann spent years as a Republican Party official in Pennsylvania and was active in the Federalist Society and National Rifle Association

and were deemed meritless

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA

DONALD J. TRUMP FOR
PRESIDENT, INC., et al.,
Plaintiffs,
v.
KATHY BOOCKVAR, et al.,
Defendants.
No. 4:20-CV-02078
(Judge Brann)
MEMORANDUM OPINION
NOVEMBER 21, 2020


Brann penned an opinion that could support sanctions of discipline against both the lawyers who filed the complaint [then withdrew] and the succeeding counsel who pressed frivolous claims in apparent violation of RPC 3.1.

annatar1914 wrote:Supreme Court

A case that is “dismissed with prejudice” is completely and permanently over.


:)
Last edited by ingliz on 22 Nov 2020 13:51, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#15138866
Red_Army wrote:I can't imagine a sane person getting excited about either of these decrepit scumfucks.


That is because you wouldn't be excited about anybody. May be Bernie could excite you but I think that even he would disillusion you as a "Capitalist sell out".

The main problem with Biden is that he is old. Otherwise his head is in the right place if he will try to unite the country as he has always done during his career. He also comes from the Obama team and considering that Obama was really fucking good all the propaganda aside that is a big plus. (He is actually considered to be the most respected/popular politician in the world right now)
User avatar
By Drlee
#15138870
I was going to stay out of this shit storm but WTF.

I love @Sivad article from (as @SpecialOlympian points out the highly partisan New York Post. Clearly Sivad wants to join most of us in laughing at the notion of voter fraud. He posted this article, no doubt, to lend to the argument this tasty piece of "evidence":

A study by the conservative Heritage Foundation found more than 1,000 instances of documented voter fraud in the United States, almost all of which occurred over the last 20 years.


So this highly partisan, highly motivated and highly funded think tank look back OVER 20 years and could not find more than 50 cases a year? Let's see. HUGE problem. Right in line with the risk of being attacked and killed by a dog. This is one of those absurd statistics like the documented fact that men are four times more likely to be struck by lightning than women are.

Trump controls the federal law enforcement apparatus. The Republican party controls the state governments of some 30 states. They both have highly motivated and well funded operatives in abundance. And what did they find? As yet they have not presented to any judge substantial evidence of voter fraud.

The hidden source of the alleged Democratic voter fraud wants us to believe that all of his proposed dirty tricks happen frequently and not one soul can be found to charge. Not one soul can be found to speak out even though they could get immunity for eating children in some states if they would just admit to committing voter fraud.

But here is the thing. A shit ton of Trump's supporters believe this happens. They are not intelligent enough to see the truth. They just blindly follow their fuhrer. Well he lost. They are going to have to suffer the indignities of improved health care, higher pay, better benefits, secure retirement and more privacy. The horror of it.

They truly are a confederation of dunces.
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