America Compared: USA is not what you think it is - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15139546
America is into exploitation and it will lead to political turmoil. Those who deny this reality shown in the video below are in total denial. Stop denying the obvious.

#15139550
Tainari88 wrote:America is into exploitation and it will lead to political turmoil. Those who deny this reality shown in the video below are in total denial. Stop denying the obvious.



Yes. Believe me, as an American I was shocked the first time I went to Western Europe and the Russian Federation (yes, even Russia...) and saw the differences and how life appeared to be considerably better in important ways.

I'm not a Socialist because I'm Larping or whatever, but because of what I've experienced and have seen personally.
#15139553
Random American wrote:@Tainari88 Yes, because what our founding fathers wrote have been subverted and there are massive corporate interests that have taken control of our political system. Corporate lobbying and job offerings by lobbying firms as well as campaign contributions to corrupt politicians all contribute to this.


The video discusses a very strong truth--mainly that the United States is run by corporations who control what the politicians wind up doing and passing as laws in DC. The average working masses are ignored and are fed lies about how they are living on a daily basis.

Capitalism is a reality in the USA and how it is practiced here is about a very weak, sold out government. The way other workers cope with that? In other parts of the world? Is very different than in the USA. I found the segment on Denmark's workers in the McDonald's there very interesting. If you open up a business in a country it doesn't mean you can just pay people shitty salaries and no benefits and have zero responsibilities because you paid off the politicians and the lawmakers.

A lot of bad brainwashing needs to be tackled to get out of the lie that America is the best for making money. Making money for WHO? You had better understand which class of people you belong to and take action.
#15139556
Random American wrote:@Tainari88 Yes, because what our founding fathers wrote have been subverted and there are massive corporate interests that have taken control of our political system. Corporate lobbying and job offerings by lobbying firms as well as campaign contributions to corrupt politicians all contribute to this.


I think if you believe in the capitalist system and don't realize what type of capitalism you are practicing you can fall into this very bad sort that is practiced in the USA. Namely the short-term profit mentality. Instant gratification with a violent and grotesque sort of individualism and lack of empathy or social responsibility that is characteristic of the American Cappy Greed pattern that defines these type of zero days off the type of policies for American low wage labor.

Mexico has abysmally low wages but the employees who are full time and permanent workers here? They have a lot of rights. Days off. Paid. Maternity leave paid and aguinaldos for December. That means you have to pay people double salaries in the month of December for their Christmas vacations. Or face fines and legal problems in Mexican courts. People in the states don't know any of this. Why? Information blocking on worker rights. It is purposeful and widespread. People are incredibly misinformed on what the rest of the world is actually experiencing in the world rather than accepting some lie about the USA has the best society, best standard of living, best labor laws and protections, best maternity leave, best prices for services, insurances, etc.

First rule of being a critical thinker is to go and find out if the question of the best of? Is true or it is all a bunch of propaganda perpetuated by special interest groups with ties to political influence and power based on being wealthy and exclusive.

Stop the automatic knee-jerk reactions of "We are the greatest country on Earth!" What the hell is that? What does that even mean??!! Put that bullshit into context. Do an overall comparison. Hell ETHIOPIA gives you more funeral attendance bereavement pay or maternity leave pay than the USA does? ETHIOPIA. MEXICO. And many others. Think about it.

@annatar1914 the truth is very few people actually know how labor policies are done in the USA or all over the world. I can't emphasize how critical it is to have a deep understanding of labor laws, rules and so on for many many people all over the world. Not understanding your rights while you are working is incredibly dangerous. Not fighting for your rights are also something not to be underestimated. If you fight for your rights you will be able to change not only your quality of life as a working person but also the quality of life of all of those who share your concerns.

If you worked as an organizer of people and had to take political action to get to the goal of changing it for the better? You need to really study how social and political movements change the world.
#15139561
@Tainari88

Your video mentions Denmark and I believe it was $22 dollars an hour for a worker in Denmark who also gets various protections by law that are not offered in the U.S. My question though in turn would be how much does it cost to live in Denmark and what is the take home pay of a Danish worker after paying ALL of his or her taxes that he or she will be required to pay by law as part of normal life taxes that a typical Danish citizen will have to pay? You also have to consider real-estate prices if a Danish worker doesn't want to rent an apartment for the rest of their lives. How much does real estate and a home cost in Denmark as opposed to the US?
#15139568
https://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1910/lih/chap10.htm
“The unoccupied rich are without any active pursuit; an object in life is wanting to them. The means of gratifying the senses, the imagination even, of sating all wants and caprices they possess. The pleasures of power are still to be attained. It is one of the strongest and most unavoidable propensities of those who have been brought up in indulgence, to abhor restraint, to be uneasy under opposition, and therefore to desire power to remove these evils of restraint and opposition. How shall they acquire the power? First by the direct influence of their wealth, and the hopes and fears it engenders; then when these means are exhausted, or to make these means more effectual, they endeavour everywhere to seize on, to monopolise the powers of Government.
...

“How shall the wretchedly poor be virtuous? Who cares about them? What character have they to lose? What hold has public opinion on their action? What care they for the delicate pleasures of reputation who are tormented by the gnawings of absolute want? How should they respect the property or rights of others who have none of their own to beget a sympathy for those who suffer from their privation? How can they feel for others’ woes, for others’ passing light complaints, who are tormented by their own substantial miseries? The mere mention of the trivial inconveniences of others insults and excites the indignation, instead of calling forth their complacent sympathies. Cut off from the decencies, the comforts, the necessaries of life, want begets ferocity. If they turn they find many in the same situation with themselves, partaking of their feelings of isolation from kindly sympathies with the happy. They become a public to each other, a public of suffering, of discontent and ignorance; they form a public opinion of their own in contempt of the public opinion of the rich, whom, and their laws, they look upon as the result of force alone. From whom are the wretched to learn the principle while they never see the practice of morality? Of respect for the security of others? From their superiors? From the laws? The conduct of their superiors, the operation of those laws have been one practical lesson to them of force, of restraint, of taking away without their consent, without any equivalent, the fruits of their labour. Of what avail are morals or principles or commands, when opposed, when belied by example? These can never supply motives of virtuous conduct. Motives arise from things, from surrounding circumstances, not from the idleness of words and empty declamations. Words are only useful to convey and impress a knowledge of these things and circumstances. If these things do not exist, words are mere mockery.

- William Thompson
#15139575
Politics_Observer wrote:@Tainari88

Your video mentions Denmark and I believe it was $22 dollars an hour for a worker in Denmark who also gets various protections by law that are not offered in the U.S. My question though in turn would be how much does it cost to live in Denmark and what is the take home pay of a Danish worker after paying ALL of his or her taxes that he or she will be required to pay by law as part of normal life taxes that a typical Danish citizen will have to pay? You also have to consider real-estate prices if a Danish worker doesn't want to rent an apartment for the rest of their lives. How much does real estate and a home cost in Denmark as opposed to the US?


These are all good questions Politics Observer, but the reality is that many workers pay a lot more taxes to the USA federal government than a very wealthy American actually does Politics. The laws favor abnormally in the USA very wealthy people. There are tax loopholes for incredibly wealthy companies like Amazon.com. A quick search for Bezos and how much taxes he pays compared to the average full time middle stage worker in Amazon makes?

I am of the opinion that I don't mind paying high taxes as long as I know my taxes are going for infrastructure, free university high quality educations for my kids, great prenatal care for pregnant women, great child care for working parents, and making sure people can afford to buy their own homes for the future and pay them off within a reasonable period--10-20 years of full time working lives. Not 35-50 years to pay off a mortgage to a bank. Most people who work for a living don't have 50 years of full time work to do that pays off a house.

Hell, Puerto Rico in the past? The Puerto Rican government in the 60s and 70s all allowed low income Puerto Rican families to move in to public housing and if they stayed there for 10 years and paid their maintenance and sliding scale costs of being part of that community the Puerto Rican government would let you become the owner of the apartment. Yours. Not the governments. My husband sold his mother's (who had died) apartment in Puerto Rico as a private apartment. Why do they do this? It stabilizes communities and people feel invested in that community and they take care of their property and work to preserve their properties for their kids and relatives and friends to inherit. In the mainland USA they have these dumb concepts about never allowing the reality that the best thing in life is security. For working poor people, working families and working communities.

Got to stop the myth that working people are lazy and the reason they are not rich like Bezos is because they are inferior. That is all bullshit Politics.

The laws and the way the economy is done all favors a very tiny group of people in the USA. They call all the shots and unfortunately, they are going to be making very important decisions that impact the vast majority of working families.

I don't know how many Mexicans I know who have no idea how the USA works in reality. I had one young woman here whom I adore a lot, and who is the epitome of hard-working and honest and decent human being and she did not know that people in the USA can become homeless, that millions of people are driving and so on to food banks and waiting in line. She told me..."How can they own cars and not have enough to eat at home? That doesn't make sense to me?" Look at this video. She is confused. They don't have enough to eat what they want at home because they lost a job to COVID or something and the unemployment check only covers rent and gas and utilities and not food. They don't qualify for food stamp assistance or it is not enough for the amount of mouths they need to feed in their rented places. She doesn't understand it because it doesn't jibe with her image of the prosperous USA where everyone has full bellies and new cars and big homes and lots of money. There is a total disinformation campaign in the world about the true living conditions of many working families all over the world.



The young woman in question has a mother who is retired, never graduated from high school but worked a good job at the Mexican Social Security office and makes lower middle class pension income and has a small economy car, a paid off huge home with all the conveniences and she was able to go to college and graduate and she thinks that the American citizens automatically have it better than she does. I have to sit down and say, "No, they don't. Why?" I told her, "It is not as easy as you think to escape certain problems in the USA. Sure there are wealthy people in the USA. There are wealthy people in Mexico too. But the most common folk in both nations? How do they live?" Mexico's poverty is bad. I do mean bad. But? The Mexicans never had welfare at all or food stamps. All cooperation and support come from extended families working together and pooling all their resources. There are laws against abandoning family members and they are HARSH. Nothing like that exists in the USA where individuals have no family responsibilities because the entire society is set up to have a rugged individualism (look out for your own needs only). Now, someone like you that is or was part of the military Politics understands teamwork well. Other nations say...if you are part of our 'team' you get benefits for that. Period. Like Veterans benefits, and being able to pull a military pension when you get to retirement age, get some free college tuition out of military services etc. WHY? Using the power of the group to create a safety net. That is the essence of socialist organization of society. It is the center of it all. Use the power of the group to benefit all members of society. Not all the benefits are floated to a tiny elite and let the rest fend for themselves and not have any safety at all.

There is a reason Roosevelt implemented all these social programs in the 30s and 40s. Because it stabilized the society and the economy.

Other nations are not standing still Politics. They are moving forward. Fighting for justice is hard in any government and in any human society. But the USA is going to have more divisive false shit happening and lies like this last 2020 election has revealed unless Americans start realizing that their 'image' and their 'reality' is not coinciding at all. They need to work very hard to make their lives reflect a better standard of living and a much higher quality of life than they currently are getting Politics.

I think Biden will do a better job at that than Trump did for sure. But if Biden hires these corporate stooges to run important agencies in the government? The neoliberal agenda won't change much. And that agenda is the one causing the problems.

Erin Brockevich on the new EPA appointee in the Biden transition team. It is concerning.



Why choose a person with a horrible track record with the environment for that post? It is a neoliberal thing. And those people are not the Left. NOT at all. But the USA citizens don't know what the LEFT really is. They are confused.
#15139582
Tainari88 wrote:The video discusses a very strong truth--mainly that the United States is run by corporations who control what the politicians wind up doing and passing as laws in DC. The average working masses are ignored and are fed lies about how they are living on a daily basis.

Capitalism is a reality in the USA and how it is practiced here is about a very weak, sold out government. The way other workers cope with that? In other parts of the world? Is very different than in the USA. I found the segment on Denmark's workers in the McDonald's there very interesting. If you open up a business in a country it doesn't mean you can just pay people shitty salaries and no benefits and have zero responsibilities because you paid off the politicians and the lawmakers.

A lot of bad brainwashing needs to be tackled to get out of the lie that America is the best for making money. Making money for WHO? You had better understand which class of people you belong to and take action.


You are so out of touch with reality, that it pains me to read this. People who put workers on a pedestal and chastise the job creators are just ignorant infantile and jealous.
#15139588
I can't fix your brainwashing oxy. You are responsible for your own brainwashing. I am not.

Lol.

Talk to me again when you are a millionaire and have tons of money and your kids are going to private elitist universities and you are part of that crowd of job creators. Because you are still just a working class dude who kisses ass to people who tell him he too can be a millionaire and act like one even though his bank account is low or not very healthy. You go and work hard for your family and become a one percenter Oxy. I really don't give a damn about how your job creators need to be worshipped when all they do is fuck over the most hard working people who do produce and never get a damn break.

#15139595
@Tainari88

I understand your point of view as well. I am a big fan of Franklin Roosevelt but I don't think he should have been allowed three terms as President. I am also a big fan of term limits and I think term limits should extend to all members of Congress too. Franklin Roosevelt had great policy but he was also the reason for the ratification of the 22nd amendment. We need another amendment to impose term limits on members of Congress too.

If Congress deems it necessary for the President to have term limits, then there is no reason why Congress shouldn't have term limits as well. It's fair. But I have a hunch, even though it's right and fair, Congress won't want to have term limits imposed on them like they imposed on the Presidency with the 22nd amendment. Term limits acts as an additional check on the power of potentially corrupt politicians in Congress.

It acts as a check against too much power being accumulated into the hands of one person. You have some members of Congress who have been there forever and have accumulated too much power and/or don't get anything done while they are up there.

Term limits for members of Congress might solve some of these problems of Congress sitting up there and never getting anything done or doing anything. Just taking up space and not taking action and getting things done. Just being useless instead of compromising, working together and getting things done. Term limits for members of Congress might help to fix that problem (though I can't say for sure).

I do think we need some programs to assist the poor and working people. I also think it's very important to have programs in place to make a college education and trade school more accessible. Plus, real deal hands on training, valuable apprenticeships where less experienced skilled workers learn from the more experienced skilled workers so they are better able to master their skills and keep their jobs after somebody has completed their trade school or college education.

But, as with anything, there are trade offs. So, we need a good balanced policy that balances the various trade offs that will inevitably have to be made to help make education more accessible for working people and to help working people and the poor live a better life while also keeping in mind the needs of the economy, good fiscal policy (everything has got to be paid for without going bankrupt or from killing too many jobs that people need to pay bills and survive), the needs of business as well as the needs of the planet and environment. I am not an expert in this field. However, it seems the democrats do a better job when it comes to helping the poor and working people and giving a better balance that is needed.
#15139602
@Politics_Observer, many people who voted for Trump were just ordinary working people who got tired of messages sent to them that they were country bumpkins or not important members of society or not part of the liberals shaping policy in the world. They want to live traditional lives. They find that things are getting worse for many of the people they know and care about.

The truth is if you are sent to go out and change things you should do it from a position of knowledge. That is always helpful.

I am happy with my life. I always wanted an old colonial Spanish traditional house in a city near the ocean. I always wanted a place I could invite my friends over to eat dinner and to talk and laugh and dance and so on. I always wanted my son to learn Spanish well and to speak Spanish with a lot of fluency and to make lifelong friendships. I always wanted to write books and stories and do a lot of things that working full-time jobs and going to university at the same time never allowed much time for. Now I have the time.

I got more than what I need. I am lucky. Most people in the world don't get that. They are like the people in the video standing inline or in their cars for food bank deliveries to survive. They worry about paying rents or mortgages, and can either be evicted from their rentals or be foreclosed on and lose all the money they invested in their homes so far...going back to uncertainty and troubles. I don't want that for any nationality of people. The Mexicans here work very very hard. They struggle every day to feed themselves. They want to give their beloved children every opportunity. But the way the system is set up? It doesn't happen for them.

I want something better for all those beautiful children that deserve to be all they hope to be someday. To think that somehow that my political philosophy is the axis of evil is very ignorant. it is not about evil. it is about a better and just existence for all of us. ALL OF US. Not just the USA or Mexico or Ethiopia or any nation in the world. All of us. The way history works for human beings? People eventually figure out what is going wrong and they change it with a lot of struggle and a lot of work. But that is the purpose of struggle.

If we can't see past our own common good there is no hope for the human race Politics. Might as well fold it up and call it a day and let us go extinct with a few nukes and boom and bam vaporized.

I once heard the testimony of a survivor of the atom bombs from the 1940s from WWII...Let me see if I can find it....it is like the darkest most hopeless reality. She survived and was old and very gray and she looked out on a street that was totally destroyed and years later she saw buildings, and streets and businesses and homes and gardens when it was all ashes and dust and hopelessness decades before. Hope springs eternal. And it is the greatest thing about our species. The ability to have that hope.
Last edited by Tainari88 on 25 Nov 2020 22:49, edited 1 time in total.
#15139605
@Tainari88

Tainari88 wrote:Politics, many people who voted for Trump were just ordinary working people who got tired of messages sent to them that they were country bumpkins or not important members of society or not part of the liberals shaping policy in the world.


That's where you and I don't agree. I think race, by and large, played the biggest role for people voting for Trump. The U.S. was founded as a white supremacist country. The founding fathers owned black slaves and committed genocide against Native Americans. Basically, rich white males were the ones who had the political and economic power and the same is true today to a large degree.

So, when Obama, a black man, got elected TWICE, whites saw that as a threat to their status as the dominant group in American society and thus voted for Trump. Racism, race, the view of Obama being a status threat and white supremacy was biggest and most important reasons for people voting Trump both in 2016 and 2020.

"Cultural Wars" is nothing more than euphemism for race and the struggle for equality by minority groups. Most of the people who voted for Trump were white. A lot of them were white women too who voted for Trump despite his disrespect for women. White women supported white supremacy too. It's one of the complaints I have with feminism today in that feminism today is designed to benefit white women while neglecting the rights of black and Latino women. I am sure white women would not like that being brought up when talking about feminism.

Aside from that, I think one of the big reasons that Biden got elected was the fact he was a white man. If it was a black man or a black woman or Latino or Asian running for President who had the exact experience and personality as Biden, I think it would have been far less likely they would have been elected.
Last edited by Politics_Observer on 26 Nov 2020 02:14, edited 1 time in total.
#15139613
USA is Brazil at the ass end of the Brazilian Empire. Turning rapidly into a certified south American narcostate.
#15139726
I heard that cell phone plans are cheaper in Germany. A friend of mine showed me a link to an Aldi phone plan. He is a German citizen. Per month the rate was 20 USD, 20! It was for a smart phone. Yet in the US it is 5 to 10 times as much. Why is that? Are US wires made out of gold? The price gap is outrageous! But US carriers are so greedy and they do not care if consumers are shit deep in debt because of the high prices for phone, internet and cable.

How many US people have college debt? Why must tuition be so expensive? The average time for loan pay up is 20 years! Tuition rates vary by state. I am lucky to be in a state with low tuition costs. It is no wonder that men and women chase rich old folks...they are miserable and they want a master to pay off their debts.

In Taiwan, my parents never heard of college debt. Everyone was so focused on studying or partying.

Rising health costs, another flaw in the US. How can anyone except a wealthy person afford surgeries and prescriptions? I cannot. So I exercise hard in hopes that I will not need to pay through the nose. So I can just buy food and necessities, not have to choose between the medical procedure or my monthly ration of groceries.
#15139728
annatar1914 wrote:Yes. Believe me, as an American I was shocked the first time I went to Western Europe and the Russian Federation (yes, even Russia...) and saw the differences and how life appeared to be considerably better in important ways.

I'm not a Socialist because I'm Larping or whatever, but because of what I've experienced and have seen personally.


Moscow and St Petersburg is not representative of the average Russian life.
#15139734
JohnRawls wrote:Moscow and St Petersburg is not representative of the average Russian life.


I was not only in those cities, and I have spent much time in the country as well. :roll:
#15139735
annatar1914 wrote:I was not only in those cities, and I have spent much time in the country as well. :roll:


Hmmm weird, then you would not be saying what you are saying. Where the hell did you stay in the countryside.
#15139736
JohnRawls wrote:Hmmm weird, then you would not be saying what you are saying. Where the hell did you stay in the countryside.


Not weird at all, which says more about you than anything else could.

In places where it's clear that while people may not have some of the things Americans cannot seem to live without these days, they have advantages we Americans do not. Neither place is perfect by any means, each with unique problems, but i'd rather live in either Russia or the United States over dying Western Europe, anytime.
#15139737
annatar1914 wrote:Not weird at all, which says more about you than anything else could.

In places where it's clear that while people may not have some of the things Americans cannot seem to live without these days, they have advantages we Americans do not. Neither place is perfect by any means, each with unique problems, but i'd rather live in either Russia or the United States over dying Western Europe, anytime.


Not sure where you lived but I do not think that you understand that a good salary outside of the biggest cities (Moscow, ST Petersburg) is very low. It is not unusual for it to be 15k rubles to 20k rubles and that is okay. Also there is an absence of work. Some people recieve around 5k rubles per month. (Postman for small vilages, apparently they are not full time workers) The difference between Moscow and the less prosperous regions is catastrophic.
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