America Compared: USA is not what you think it is - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15139741
JohnRawls wrote:Not sure where you lived but I do not think that you understand that a good salary outside of the biggest cities (Moscow, ST Petersburg) is very low. It is not unusual for it to be 15k rubles to 20k rubles and that is okay. Also there is an absence of work. Some people recieve around 5k rubles per month. (Postman for small vilages, apparently they are not full time workers) The difference between Moscow and the less prosperous regions is catastrophic.


People in Russia endure, they get by on little compared to folks in the USA and help each other out to a degree apparently impossible to my American loved ones. Let's put it this way; I don't know too many people there past a certain age that doesn't miss important aspects of life in the Soviet Union. Still, now things are not ''catastrophic''. Back in the 1990's and early 2000's, that was catastrophic.

Do I want things to be better? Sure, and I bet I could spend all day listing terrible things about life in either Russia or America. But better also includes not going down the path of suicide the West universally has chosen.
#15139742
annatar1914 wrote:People in Russia endure, they get by on little compared to folks in the USA and help each other out to a degree apparently impossible to my American loved ones. Let's put it this way; I don't know too many people there past a certain age that doesn't miss important aspects of life in the Soviet Union. Still, now things are not ''catastrophic''. Back in the 1990's and early 2000's, that was catastrophic.

Do I want things to be better? Sure, and I bet I could spend all day listing terrible things about life in either Russia or America. But better also includes not going down the path of suicide the West universally has chosen.


The situation hasn't changed much for the regions since the 90's. That is the problem. The difference is that there is a semblance of "order" either by local Oligarchs or beuracrats who are in charge.
#15139745
JohnRawls wrote:The situation hasn't changed much for the regions since the 90's. That is the problem. The difference is that there is a semblance of "order" either by local Oligarchs or beuracrats who are in charge.


Order is order, and the Tsar is far away. It's an old story, but not such a permanent one.
#15139770
Politics_Observer wrote:@annatar1914

It seems Putin is Russia's Tsar these days, though nobody calls him a Tsar.


It matters little in any case whether they do or not or whether he is or not. As the Russian saying goes, for good or bad, ''the Tsar is far away''.
#15139793
ckaihatsu wrote:Young Billionaire Says Wealthy Are Not 'Job Creators'


Job creation is wealth creation. It's a collaboration between the capitalist who supplies the resources/materials to produce goods + the worker who manufactures and sells it + the consumer who chooses to buy it.

There's no job creation if one of those 3 are missing.
#15139795
Unthinking Majority wrote:Job creation is wealth creation. It's a collaboration between the capitalist who supplies the resources/materials to produce goods + the worker who manufactures and sells it + the consumer who chooses to buy it.

There's no job creation if one of those 3 are missing.


Except that the capitalist acquires the resources and materials they possess from the previous labors of workers. And consumers are workers who buy things from inventories of businesses.

The whole economy derives value and impetus from the labors of workers.
#15139801
Being grateful to a billionaire for graciously providing you with a job is like a slave being grateful to his master for providing a roof over his head, food on his plate, and healthy outdoor activities.

Do people really love their chains so much?
#15139804
annatar1914 wrote:Except that the capitalist acquires the resources and materials they possess from the previous labors of workers. And consumers are workers who buy things from inventories of businesses.

Right so it's a self-perpetuating cycle involving all three components: owners, workers, and consumers.

A worker in a Chinese factory needs the company they work for to give them a task to do, and the materials and machines and building space to do it, just as the owner needs the Chinese worker to work the machines and put the item together, and then use their wages to buy products from a large variety of businesses.

The whole economy derives value and impetus from the labors of workers.

But the whole economy does not simply depend on consumers and labourers though, even thought they're a massive and irreplaceable part of it. There's also the people who risk and put up the capital and buy the materials and organize the business.

The economy depends on capitalists, workers, and consumers to create jobs and produce wealth. You can change who puts up the money and the risk and organizes the structure of the business, but somebody (whether workers themselves, or government etc) will always be needed to fill that role.
#15139805
Potemkin wrote:Being grateful to a billionaire for graciously providing you with a job is like a slave being grateful to his master for providing a roof over his head, food on his plate, and healthy outdoor activities.

Do people really love their chains so much?

The difference between an employee and a slave is that a slave is forced against their will through threat of violence to work for their master with no choice about anything, whereas an employee voluntarily signs a contract with the company they voluntarily apply to, and they can quit (terminate the contract) whenever they like.

If the worker doesn't want to work for anybody they can choose to start their own business, or go homeless and starve. They have free will.

When somebody does work for a company it's a business transaction between those 2 parties. The worker voluntarily agrees to complete tasks for the company in exchange for an agreed upon amount of money. The exchange of money is the completion of that transaction and the worker doesn't have any obligation to thank the business, nor does the business have to thank the worker. Nobody is doing the other a favour, they're both getting something out of the deal that they previously agreed upon, which is why they both enter the deal in the first place. Unless of course one of both of them goes above and beyond the terms of the contract, then it would be polite to give thanks I suppose.
#15139807
@annatar1914

annatar1914 wrote:It matters little in any case whether they do or not or whether he is or not. As the Russian saying goes, for good or bad, ''the Tsar is far away''.


I disagree. Inside Russia the Tsar might be far away, but outside of Russia he is close by, especially in the Baltic regions that borders Russia. Outside of Russia the Tsar is close by and he wants the empire back that he lost when the Soviet Union collapsed. I imagine this is not for the good when it comes to Russia's neighbors who wish to remain free and independent. The Tsar poses a threat.
#15139818
Unthinking Majority wrote:Job creation is wealth creation. It's a collaboration between the capitalist who supplies the resources/materials to produce goods + the worker who manufactures and sells it + the consumer who chooses to buy it.

There's no job creation if one of those 3 are missing.


No, Unthinking the 'job creators' are scammers. Listen to this. Where is your rebuttal to his points? I am waiting.






Greed is the value system and the American worker has to live with that greed that makes people poor, sick and hopeless.

You keep defending that horrible inhumane system. It will destroy the world if it is not confronted and dealt with appropriately.

#15139834
Right so it's a self-perpetuating cycle involving all three components: owners, workers, and consumers.


It's a cycle all right, but entirely dependent on the worker, who as I said is also the consumer (which Capitalists often become forgetful of that, spawning the cyclic crises of overproduction)

A worker in a Chinese factory needs the company they work for to give them a task to do, and the materials and machines and building space to do it, just as the owner needs the Chinese worker to work the machines and put the item together, and then use their wages to buy products from a large variety of businesses.


Again, entirely dependent on the worker, although administrative functions cannot be denied (said Administrators are often workers themselves).

But the whole economy does not simply depend on consumers and labourers though, even thought they're a massive and irreplaceable part of it. There's also the people who risk and put up the capital and buy the materials and organize the business.


And where do those materials come from, those funds? The labor of workers. The Capitalists are an un-necessary part of the equation.

The economy depends on capitalists, workers, and consumers to create jobs and produce wealth. You can change who puts up the money and the risk and organizes the structure of the business, but somebody (whether workers themselves, or government etc) will always be needed to fill that role.


As I said, the Capitalists are an unnecessary part of the equation, and others indeed can fill the roles of organizing the structure of the business.
#15139835
Politics_Observer wrote:@annatar1914



I disagree. Inside Russia the Tsar might be far away, but outside of Russia he is close by, especially in the Baltic regions that borders Russia. Outside of Russia the Tsar is close by and he wants the empire back that he lost when the Soviet Union collapsed. I imagine this is not for the good when it comes to Russia's neighbors who wish to remain free and independent. The Tsar poses a threat.


@Politics_Observer

I'm sorry you've been listening to some pretty retarded propaganda from people who senselessly want to start a new Cold War for no goddamned reason. None of what you said is true, at all, not one bit of it. Russia's government has absolutely no interest whatsoever in doing what you and others suggest, and is thriving in her recovery precisely because she doesn't have the burden of these former soviet republics draining her resources.
#15139920
@annatar1914

I don't know annatar....I don't think it's "propaganda" to state just only the facts and the logical conclusions from just the facts. Just the facts annatar. Only the facts and logical conclusions from those facts. Russia took a chunk of Ukraine when Ukraine decided they wanted to be free and independent. Plus, the Russians doing sudden menacing snap drills on the borders of other Baltic NATO countries. Then Putin moving into Syria and hacking our elections in 2016 and attempted to hack our elections again during the 2020 election. Did I mention that Putin has been expanding his influence with the Hungarian government too?

Ohh and let's not forget Putin harassing our naval forces and military reconnaissance flights in international air space and waters (these were not mere military interceptions). Putin can talk this game about "imperial Western powers" all he wants but I think quite the contrary it seems that your bro Putin and Tsar Putin wants his empire back that he lost when the Soviet Union collapsed. I don't pay attention to words. I pay attention to action. Russia's actions and the logical conclusions we can draw from those actions (that Russia seeks to expand it's influence and get it's empire back) speak for themselves. Outside of Russia's borders, the Tsar seems quite close by, hostile, aggressive and has demonstrated it wants back it's old empire. The Baltics and Eastern Europe should especially worry.
#15139923
Tainari88 wrote:America is into exploitation and it will lead to political turmoil. Those who deny this reality shown in the video below are in total denial. Stop denying the obvious.

It's weird to compare McDonalds workers in Denmark with McDonalds workers in the US. Denmark has no minimum wage. Yet, they pay their workers more than twice what an American McDonalds worker receives. That's typically because their workforce is unionized, and the stores aren't individually franchised as in the United States.

annatar1914 wrote:Yes. Believe me, as an American I was shocked the first time I went to Western Europe and the Russian Federation (yes, even Russia...) and saw the differences and how life appeared to be considerably better in important ways.

It's changing though, as there is a growing underground economy in Europe with so many "refugees." All that compassion hides a lot of exploitation. Anyone for an evening stroll through Clichy su Bois?
Image

Tainari88 wrote:The video discusses a very strong truth--mainly that the United States is run by corporations who control what the politicians wind up doing and passing as laws in DC. The average working masses are ignored and are fed lies about how they are living on a daily basis.

Yes, but the poor ostensibly are voting for these politicians. What makes you think people in China aren't being fed lies and being ignored by their government--the world's second largest economy, and largest country by population?

Tainari88 wrote:If you open up a business in a country it doesn't mean you can just pay people shitty salaries and no benefits and have zero responsibilities because you paid off the politicians and the lawmakers.

A lot of bad brainwashing needs to be tackled to get out of the lie that America is the best for making money. Making money for WHO? You had better understand which class of people you belong to and take action.

Well, it's important to understand the differences. Denmark has no minimum wage at all. So why try comparing the US to Denmark with a pitch about the minimum wage?

Tainari88 wrote:Instant gratification with a violent and grotesque sort of individualism and lack of empathy or social responsibility that is characteristic of the American Cappy Greed pattern that defines these type of zero days off the type of policies for American low wage labor.

Why do you focus on the United States? You moved to Mexico, where the labor issues are far worse.

Tainari88 wrote:Mexico has abysmally low wages but the employees who are full time and permanent workers here? They have a lot of rights. Days off. Paid. Maternity leave paid and aguinaldos for December.

America has the Family and Medical Leave act as well. You get maternity/paternity leave here too. We have days off, paid.

Tainari88 wrote:That means you have to pay people double salaries in the month of December for their Christmas vacations.

America has a separation of church and state. You cannot force people to pay more for a religious event. It's unlawful.

Tainari88 wrote:People in the states don't know any of this. Why? Information blocking on worker rights.

It's unconstitutional to use government power to recognize a religion in the US. American workers do have paid vacation and family and medical leave. Why don't you know this?

Tainari88 wrote:The laws favor abnormally in the USA very wealthy people.

The capital gains tax is lower than the earned income tax, but it's the same rate as in the UK, Estonia, and Latvia for example. Poland, Czechia and Hungary are even lower than the US. Some don't even have capital gains taxes, like Switzerland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Slovakia and Slovenia. The rates are only marginally higher in most European countries.

Tainari88 wrote:There are tax loopholes for incredibly wealthy companies like Amazon.com.

Yes, and there are tax loopholes in Europe too. England's corporate tax rate is 20%. In the US, it's 21%. In Ireland, the business tax rate is 12.5%.

Tainari88 wrote:I think Biden will do a better job at that than Trump did for sure.

The establishment is into exploiting illegal immigrants, which is exactly what a Biden administration will do. So when you talk about the ignorance of others, why not look in the mirror? Working class wages were stagnant until Trump came into office. Watch what happens to them when he leaves office.

Tainari88 wrote:But if Biden hires these corporate stooges to run important agencies in the government?

They are already warming up the war machine. Have you seen his picks so far?

Tainari88 wrote:And that agenda is the one causing the problems.

So why do you think Biden would do a better job? He spent 47 years representing high interest credit card companies that exploit the underclass. Do you not know his record?

Tainari88 wrote:Greed is the value system and the American worker has to live with that greed that makes people poor, sick and hopeless.

So we should adopt the policies of Guatemala?

annatar1914 wrote:And where do those materials come from, those funds? The labor of workers. The Capitalists are an un-necessary part of the equation.

If that were the case, competition would have weeded them out a long time ago.
#15139928
Tainari88 wrote:Greed is the value system and the American worker has to live with that greed that makes people poor, sick and hopeless.

You keep defending that horrible inhumane system. It will destroy the world if it is not confronted and dealt with appropriately.


I only watched the beginning of the OP video but I agree with it.

I'm not saying capitalism is some perfect system, nor am i even defending capitalism in this thread. What i've said is that laborers aren't the only important part of job creation, you can't have an economy without somebody putting up investment and risk of money and creating the business model. That can be the workers themselves, but it is a different and necessary component than simply labour.

I'm also arguing there's no such thing as "wage slavery", and workers aren't "slaves". I'll fully acknowledge that many workers are exploited and work under less than humane conditions and this is wrong.
#15139950
@blackjack21 I have had a very long and eventful day. My quote button has blown up. And you require a good and thorough response. I will deal with you tomorrow.

@blackjack21
Why do you focus on the United States? You moved to Mexico, where the labor issues are far worse.


Why did I focus on the USA? First, because the thread is about America Compared: USA is not what you think it is. What does this imply for the reader? That the image the USA has about being the land of milk and honey and fairness and success is BULLSHIT. If you take some stats about real working conditions in the present of the USA's labor force---the USA's working masses are not getting good and safe and consistently beneficial working conditions. Why? The neoliberal agenda Blackjack. Someone is getting rich off of these conditions, these conditions are models that have worked for the neoliberals and neocons all over the world before. It is now coming to culminate within the USA. It is as Chris Hudgens indicated in the Greed video with Bill Moyers I have posted in this thread already...that the USA did a lot of terrible exploiting off its own shores and now loves the results and brought it home to the USA's working masses. That is the point of that Senor. Nationalism is not going to work with these vultures Relampaguito. They are everywhere and they will implement what works with other nations within the USA's borders. Because they are capitalists. The system that you love.

Why did I move to Mexico? Because first I miss Latin American culture. I am from a Latin American mother culture. There are quite a few in this part of the world. The New world. Second, I visited that country consistently since I was eight years old and know it well. Third, my native country Puerto Rico is far more expensive to live in than Mexico is. Fourth, my husband needs to stop working constantly and enjoy his life and his family and live a slower paced life. Fifth, the USA is a rat race for people who are not millionaires Blackjack. I am surprise not a millionaire. Lol. Sixth, I have worked since I was sixteen years old and paid my dues and should be able to live where I like to live. Seventh, I like this region of Mexico because I have a background in anthropology BJ. And this place has some of the most wonderful archaeological zones in the world. I love that. Eighth, I like teaching and I think I can do the most good and best service with my time and energy serving the people here and not people who have a lot more resources but who seem to not know what the hell to do with it and make it serve the largest group of people. Too many rugged individualistic narccisst sociopathic lack of love for others is going on in wealthy nations with too many alienation problems. I don't like that shit at all to tell you the truth. Ninth, one can be well off and not be happy and be lonely and not feel loved. Money ain't everything in the world and I never thought money and having a lot of it could ever substitute having a lot of love and a lot of truly good people to be with and spend one's time on. Tenth, I am a relationship oriented person above anything else Relampaguito. I like the way Mexicans are into relationships in general. All people that are human beings got problems. I get to choose which set of problems I am willing to work on in this stage of my life. I chose Mexican problems. For the rest of my life to work on. The Americans never gave a shit about Puerto Ricans really. If they did? I should have been able to vote if I lived in San Juan, Puerto Rico, my birth city. But they don't. The USA doesn't give a shit. They never did. So why should I worry about giving them more decades of my time and money? I paid and pay taxes, I voted, I worked, I raised a son who is born in the USA and I did a lot. I am not beholden to nationalistic ideas BJ...especially to a nation that never gave my homeland equal rights. Mexico is going to make me a citizen in less than two and a half years. The USA has not given Puerto Rico the ability to vote and power over its own destiny in over a century....one century of LACK of respect, and the other country in two years? Welcome, you are gonna effect change and we accept you as part of this society--even though you are a foreigner. Which do I think is the more just mentality?

;) :D
#15139956
Just the facts, @Politics_Observer ;

I don't know annatar....I don't think it's "propaganda" to state just only the facts and the logical conclusions from just the facts. Just the facts annatar. Only the facts and logical conclusions from those facts. Russia took a chunk of Ukraine when Ukraine decided they wanted to be free and independent.


This is in fact untrue. The Crimea was given over the the Ukraine SSR during the time of Khruschev, and both regions were historically Russian. Plus, when the Oligarchs and Fascists took over in Kiev in the Ukraine in 2013, the Crimea (mainly ethnic Velikorussians) voted overwhelmingly to rejoin Russia. And in the Donbass where I have people I know, the Fascists had already sent out death squads like the Azov Battalion to kill Russians there, and so the Donbass Russians decided to declare the independence of the Donetsk People's Republic and the Lugansk People's Republic.

So that is a lie, it's bullshit. It's not your lie, but it's still false.


Plus, the Russians doing sudden menacing snap drills on the borders of other Baltic NATO countries.


Because NATO is now just a few minutes missile strike from St. Petersburg and Moscow, the Russians have to have such preparedness drills, not counting on the West's permanent goodwill. We have at least 27.6 million reasons not to. The menacing is not from Russia; what would you thing of armed and possibly hostile forces that close to America as we are to Russia?

Then Putin moving into Syria


At the request of the legitimate and internationally recognized government of Syria, the Russian armed forces assisted the Syrian military in defeating militant Jihadi forces from taking over Syria. Is having ISIS or Al Qaida being in charge in Damascus something you'd really prefer to see? :eh:


and hacking our elections in 2016 and attempted to hack our elections again during the 2020 election.


Bullshit. No proof of that whatsoever, it's a hysterical conspiracy theory started by Hillary Clinton... You know, the woman who started the whole ''Birther'' conspiracy theory against Barack Obama.

Did I mention that Putin has been expanding his influence with the Hungarian government too?


Wow, Russia shouldn't try to have good relations with anyone, should they? :roll:

Ohh and let's not forget Putin harassing our naval forces and military reconnaissance flights in international air space and waters (these were not mere military interceptions).


Similar incidents from Western forces don't make Western media reports, and most of the incidents are in places like Syria, where US forces are illegally occupying Syrian territory in violation of international law. Funny, that started under President Trump, are you suddenly a Trump supporter?


Putin can talk this game about "imperial Western powers" all he wants but I think quite the contrary it seems that your bro Putin and Tsar Putin wants his empire back that he lost when the Soviet Union collapsed.


More nonsense. From everything i've seen and everyone i've talked to, Putin is actually the closest thing to a Russian liberal fond of the West, and he has absolutely no interest in even taking back areas that are majority Russian, except the Crimea, which voted on annexation, and was already home to Russian military forces under agreement with previous Ukrainian governments.

I don't pay attention to words. I pay attention to action.


I'm not seeing you doing that, I'm seeing you taking in all your information from a congenitally biased media in the West that is Anti-Russian.

Russia's actions and the logical conclusions we can draw from those actions (that Russia seeks to expand it's influence and get it's empire back) speak for themselves.


Wrong, as I've stated above.

Outside of Russia's borders, the Tsar seems quite close by, hostile, aggressive and has demonstrated it wants back it's old empire. The Baltics and Eastern Europe should especially worry.


That's one of the stupidest things i've heard in a while, and I know you aren't stupid, especially when you should know that Elitist white western scumbags continually lied to Russian leaders after the fall of the Soviet Union and among many other outrages, lied about NATO expansion to the point where, as I said before, NATO expansion to the very frontiers of Russia presents an existential threat to the Russian people, from the West, once more in a single lifetime . Consider the possibility that you are flat wrong and possibly quite prejudiced against Russia and Russians, and maybe a little misinformed?
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