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#15140590
Verv wrote:The evidence is largely circumstantial with Burisma, sure. The evidence is also apparently circumstantial with a lot of the China money narrative -- we just have a person saying that yes, Biden is the Big Guy that appeared in the emails of Hunter Biden that were leaked.

The Russia hoax was launched on flimsier evidence than we have of Biden family corruption, wouldn't you agree?


Trumps Russia investigation was far more documented and had far more actual evidence which didn't lead anywhere. But the situations are pretty similar non-the-less because because the base for both of the situations is he said that she said etc. Just in case of Trump it was a private investigator(Former mi5 guy?) while in case of Biden/Burisma it is the Republican party.
#15140591
Verv wrote:The evidence is largely circumstantial with Burisma, sure. The evidence is also apparently circumstantial with a lot of the China money narrative -- we just have a person saying that yes, Biden is the Big Guy that appeared in the emails of Hunter Biden that were leaked.

The Russia hoax was launched on flimsier evidence than we have of Biden family corruption, wouldn't you agree?


@Verv ;

Most of the corrupt stuff done in Washington is corrupt and unethical, but at least technically legal. After all, they wrote the laws that way for a reason; to operate with impunity.

A company or government wants to bribe a Congressman to do something for them, so they give the money to a ''charitable foundation'' run by the Congressman's wife, who gets a large ''consultation fee'' or whatever and splits it with her husband the Congressman, for example.
User avatar
By Godstud
#15140603
@Verv There are people in jail, today, because of that "Hoax". That you and other people call it that, is an insult to your intelligence and makes you look foolish.

It's quite an extensive list, in case you forgot.
Here's everyone who has been charged, convicted, and sentenced in the Russia probe so far
https://www.businessinsider.com/who-has ... mp-2017-12


That Trump didn't get prosecuted is because he surrounded himself with patsies to take the fall. That's why Trump is so concerned with "loyalty".
User avatar
By Verv
#15140619
Godstud wrote:@Verv There are people in jail, today, because of that "Hoax". That you and other people call it that, is an insult to your intelligence and makes you look foolish.

It's quite an extensive list, in case you forgot.
Here's everyone who has been charged, convicted, and sentenced in the Russia probe so far
https://www.businessinsider.com/who-has ... mp-2017-12


That Trump didn't get prosecuted is because he surrounded himself with patsies to take the fall. That's why Trump is so concerned with "loyalty".


As I stated in the other thread, these are process violations...

Lying, fraud, witness intimidation, etc., and none of these actually link back to the idea that Russia colluded with Trump to "steal" the election.

I did not read the link thoroughly. But, if you would like to present a case that someone is in jail now for reasons very directly related to Russia, Russia, Russia, be my guest.

I apologize -- I am only inclined to effort post & cover something seriously and in-depth if other people are doing it. And, even then, I do not know if I have the time :hmm: .
#15140627
Verv wrote:Lying, fraud, witness intimidation, etc., and none of these actually link back to the idea that Russia colluded with Trump to "steal" the election.
That is a false premise. No one has ever said that the election was fraudulent, only that there was interference by way of Russian influence. This was supported by all the whole US intelligence community, as well.

Verv wrote:I did not read the link thoroughly. But, if you would like to present a case that someone is in jail now for reasons very directly related to Russia, Russia, Russia, be my guest.
From the article you choose to ignore:
Mueller charged Manafort's "right-hand man" Konstantin Kilimnik in June with witness tampering in a superseding indictment that charges the Russian citizen and Manafort with conspiracy to obstruct justice and obstruction of justice.

Mueller reportedly began further investigation into Kilimnik in November with the help of three of his associates, including Manafort, to examine their political consultancy and lobbying work that connected them with prominent Russian oligarchs.
The special counsel has said Kilimnik has strong ties from past work with Russian intelligence and was in contact with top figures in Trump's 2016 campaign.


Of course there is much more, but Trump cultists like to ignore them. To pretend Russia was not involved is to be a fool.

Verv wrote:I apologize -- I am only inclined to effort post & cover something seriously and in-depth if other people are doing it. And, even then, I do not know if I have the time :hmm: .
That's a pretty pathetic reason to ignore facts and reality. You continue to reinforce the Trump-cultist label that applies so aptly to you.
#15140679
Godstud wrote:That is a false premise. No one has ever said that the election was fraudulent


Like hell.

only that there was interference by way of Russian influence. This was supported by all the whole US intelligence community, as well


What they did support is that Russia tried to interfere with American elections. Guess what? So did other countries. Guess what else? It wasn't the first time.

Same goes with us. I hope that NOBODY on PoFo is stupid enough to believe that America has never attempted, or succeeded in, interfering with foreign democratic elections.

Of course there is much more, but Trump cultists like to ignore them. To pretend Russia was not involved is to be a fool.

That's a pretty pathetic reason to ignore facts and reality. You continue to reinforce the Trump-cultist label that applies so aptly to you.


There was zero evidence that Trump was complicit in any of Russia's wrongdoings. However, there is significant evidence that the door-opening for that bullshit investigation was a criminal violation, as the criminality of the Steele Dossier is not really up for debate except for the worst of Democrats and those affected by Trump Derangement Syndrome.
#15140729
Verv wrote:@Deutschmania provides us with lots of evidence in the form of reassurances from the Biden party that it ain't so...



"Trust us, guys, this is absurd!"



"Guys, if you believe our narrative, then Biden didn't even play much of a role!"

Like we would ever suggest that there were not dozens & dozens of other actors involved.

Do you really think it would be the case that the Embassy alone would be able to pressure the firing of a top prosecutor? Of course not. This would come from on high -- especially when it is a country that was in the geopolitical spotlight at the time.

What's your response to things like this?



Fox News

Here is my response .
Shokin's former deputy, Vitaliy Kasko, said the investigation into Burisma and company owner Mykola Zlochevsky was inactive at the time of Joe Biden's pressure in late 2015 and early 2016. A leading Ukrainian anti-corruption activist said the same.
"Shokin was not investigating. He didn't want to investigate Burisma," Daria Kaleniuk, executive director of Ukraine's Anti-Corruption Action Center, told The Washington Post for a July article. "And Shokin was fired not because he wanted to do that investigation, but quite to the contrary, because he failed that investigation." 2. Shokin was widely seen -- by Ukrainian activists, US diplomats, European governments and the International Monetary Fund -- as ineffective or corrupt. In a speech in 2015, Geoffrey Pyatt, then the US ambassador to Ukraine, castigated Shokin's office for impeding the investigation of Burisma's owner Zlochevsky. Pyatt called for people in Shokin's office to be fired, "at minimum."
"Rather than supporting Ukraine's reforms and working to root out corruption, corrupt actors within the prosecutor general's office are making things worse by openly and aggressively undermining reform," Pyatt said.
3. Biden was acting in accordance with official US policy. Because of Shokin's reputation, the US and its allies believed that removing him would increase, not decrease, the chances of people like Zlochevsky being pursued.
"What former Vice President Biden requested of former President of Ukraine, (Petro) Poroshenko, was the removal of a corrupt prosecutor general, Viktor Shokin," George Kent, the deputy assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs, testified in the impeachment inquiry. Kent went on to say Shokin had "undermined" a US-funded program to try to investigate corrupt Ukrainian prosecutors.
4. Some Republican senators had also demanded changes to the prosecutor general's office Shokin led.
In a bipartisan 2016 letter, Republican Sens. Rob Portman of Ohio, Mark Kirk of Illinois and Ron Johnson of Wisconsin joined Democratic colleagues in calling on then-President Poroshenko to "press ahead with urgent reforms to the Prosecutor General's office and judiciary
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/27/politics/fact-check-joe-biden-burisma-pam-bondi/index.html
#15140733
Goranhammer wrote:There was zero evidence that Trump was complicit in any of Russia's wrongdoings. However, there is significant evidence that the door-opening for that bullshit investigation was a criminal violation, as the criminality of the Steele Dossier is not really up for debate except for the worst of Democrats and those affected by Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Yes, the investigation did not find evidence that Trump was involved, but many in his campaign WERE. The investigation was warranted, given how many people were indicted, and I am sure even the smarter Trump-cultists(as you are identifying yourself as one by using lame term "Trump Derangement Syndrome" to call anyone who dislikes Trump) can see that. That does not make the investigation unwarranted, or illegal. In fact, it justifies it.

Regardless, Trump is a loser now, and so are his idolaters.
User avatar
By Verv
#15140768
Deutschmania wrote:Here is my response . https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/27/politics/fact-check-joe-biden-burisma-pam-bondi/index.html


Which is an interesting line.

I must admit, looking into other articles, Shoskin has a very checkered past. But it does include people willing to stand up for him:

Piskun insists that he never regretted hiring Poroshenko’s man, saying that Shokin showed himself to be a “capable” investigator. He mentioned Shokin’s success getting to the bottom of an investigation of the murders of journalists like Georgy Gongadze, who was found decapitated in woods outside Kiev in 2000. (Gongadze's family say those who ordered the killing were never brought to justice.)

“No one ever investigated as much as we did,” Piskun says. “And I doubt anyone will.”


This is also an interesting part of the article:

The approach of Shokin’s office to the Burisma investigations fell into a well-practiced pattern of corruption, the anonymous prosecutor says. By the time of Biden’s intervention, there were no active investigations to speak of.

“If the idea was to get a result on the Burisma case, Shokin would have put his top people on it,” he says. “That didn’t happen. The aims were different.”

Investigations into Burisma, which only ever covered the period from before Hunter Biden’s involvement in the company, were finally settled in 2016. An audio recording purporting to be of Petro Poroshenko in conversation with another gas tycoon acting as a mediator, offered some clues as to the sequencing. In it, the two men talk about a “global solution” to Burisma’s problems: redirecting cashflows to Poroshenko’s companies.

Poroshenko’s spokespeople have described the recordings as fake, but not everyone is convinced.

“Neither Shokin nor Poroshenko wanted to investigate [Burisma owner Mykola​] Zlochevsky,” says Sakvarelidze. “They simply began a criminal case, arrested a few assets, and began negotiating with the corruptioneer for a bribe.”


Independent

The narrative is perhaps wrong that Shokin was fired for hotly pursuing Zlochevsky, but it is certainly true that Burisma is as corrupt as they come, and that they took on Hunter Biden for the explicit reason that he is the Vice President's son. They paid him ridiculous money for his connection to Biden.

There is room for a narrative in which the desire to get rid fo Shokin was the desire to get rid of Poroshenko's hand in the affairs, and to have their own guys in office that are ultimately no different from Shokin, just with different allegiances.

Of course, if yuo want to argue that the long tentacles of the USA have been geared to honestly fight corruption, that would be very sweet of you.

One of the greatest things that the Trump Presidency has done has been to show me left wingers arguing against tariffs and free markets, and to also see them painting the global US influence as completely benign. Guys who cheer for Bernie Sanders going after the 1% are always excited to explain away how surely there was no corruption between US oligarchs & Ukrainian oligarchs.

There are no US oligarchs but for the remaining Koch brother and the Bushes, after all.
User avatar
By Verv
#15140769
Godstud wrote: From the article you choose to ignore:
Mueller charged Manafort's "right-hand man" Konstantin Kilimnik in June with witness tampering in a superseding indictment that charges the Russian citizen and Manafort with conspiracy to obstruct justice and obstruction of justice.

Mueller reportedly began further investigation into Kilimnik in November with the help of three of his associates, including Manafort, to examine their political consultancy and lobbying work that connected them with prominent Russian oligarchs.
The special counsel has said Kilimnik has strong ties from past work with Russian intelligence and was in contact with top figures in Trump's 2016 campaign.

.


More on Kilimnik:

They began working for Viktor Yanukovych after the 2004 Orange Revolution cost him the Presidency. With help from Manafort and Kilimnik, Yanukovych became President in 2010. Kilimnik then spent 90% of his time inside the Presidential administration.[13] From 2011 to 2013 with liaison to Viktor Yanukovych's chief of staff Serhiy Lyovochkin, Kilimnik, Manafort, Alan Friedman, Eckart Sager, who was a one time CNN producer, and Rick Gates advised on an international public relations strategy.[15] This effort supported the administration of President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych.[15] Yanukovych hired Manafort's company Global Endeavour, a St. Vincent and Grenadines based consulting and lobbying company, which during the end of Yanukovych's presidency transferred $750,000 out of Ukraine and also paid Kilimnik $53,000 during November and December 2013.[16][17] When Yanukovych fled the country, Manafort and Kilimnik gained employment with the Ukrainian party Opposition Bloc which is backed by the same oligarchs who backed Yanukovych.[8] At some point, Opposition Bloc stopped paying Manafort's firm but even though the non-payment forced Manafort's firm to shut down their Kyiv office, Kilimnik continued to advise the party while working to collect unpaid fees for Manafort's firm.[8]

Around 2010, Kilimnik collaborated with Rinat Akhmetshin when the Washington-based lobbyist was trying to sell a book disparaging one of Yanukovych's opponents.[11]

Kilimnik and Manafort actively assisted Ukrainian oligarchs and Russian oligarchs that are close to the Kremlin and Vladimir Putin.[18] Also, they worked to ensure that Viktor Yanukovych and his Party of Regions would reduce and eventually sever Ukraine's ties to the United States and Europe so that Ukraine would become much closer to Russia, the Kremlin, and Vladimir Putin.[18]


WIkipedia

Whatever he was doing in the Ukraine as a consultant was definitely being watched by the CIA if not partly directed by them. Of course, US HUMINT is notoriously low quality, but you don't imagine that Manafort's consultant agency was operating entirely out of view of the US intel community? What are the chances that they were even working for the US intel community as well?

Now we are supposed to believe that a guy whose made his whole life's work navigating the complex world of Russian & Ukrainian politics is totes Putin's guy, and just like Trump?

On what evidence..?

... Because we really, really want to believe that Trump stole the 2016 election through secret charts & opinion polls the Russians alone had access to? Through an $12 million Russia-sponsored Facebook ad campaign, much of which was aimed at supporting Sanders & rallying BLM types?

Make your case, bro.
User avatar
By Godstud
#15140784
@Verv Seeing as there are numerous indictments linked to the Russia probe(hardly a hoax when you consider that), I think it is you who needs to make a case.

I listed one of MANY in the link I posted. You go read the rest.

Get to it, slacker!
#15140847
Godstud wrote:Yes, the investigation did not find evidence that Trump was involved, but many in his campaign WERE. The investigation was warranted, given how many people were indicted, and I am sure even the smarter Trump-cultists(as you are identifying yourself as one by using lame term "Trump Derangement Syndrome" to call anyone who dislikes Trump) can see that. That does not make the investigation unwarranted, or illegal. In fact, it justifies it.

Regardless, Trump is a loser now, and so are his idolaters.


It's not "anyone who doesn't like Trump". It's meant for people who dismiss anything not on merit, but by connection to Trump. There were lots of people who thought Trump was being "racist" and "xenophobic" for banning flights to and from countries that don't properly vet passengers for terrorist ties WHEN OBAMA DID THE EXACT SAME THING. There were people who railed on Trump for stopping international flights early on to help stop the disease, while Democrats were out there, maskless, commingling, telling people not to worry and that "Orange Man Bad" is trying to scare you. Kind of a 180 there, huh?

I've seen endless videos of people being interviewed where they were asked "do you like it when Trump did <xyz>" and they go "NO! HE'S RACIST EVIL ORANGE MAN", only for the interviewer to go "oh yeah, oops, Obama did that". Then they'd go "what do you think about Democrats doing <abc>" and people would go "yes I agree with that, Democrats help the working man", only to find out it was a Trump policy.

THAT'S Trump Derangement Syndrome.
#15140863
@Goranhammer Wrong. You, sir, are lying.

Trump lies. He does this all the time. That's FACT.

‘Tsunami of untruths’: Trump has made 20,000 false or misleading claims – report
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... ing-claims

His campaign had Russian connections. That is also fact. His campaign was involved in criminal actions. That is fact.

Trump was not involved, since they could not find a connection to him. That does not mean he wasn't involved, only that they couldn't prove anything. He was never absolved of anything.

As mentioned before, if someone doesn't follow their own advice, they are dumb, and that has nothing to do with Trump, who often contributed to the misinformation campaign regarding Covid-19. This is fact.

Trump Is ‘Single Largest Driver’ Of Covid-19 Misinformation, Cornell Study Finds
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/ ... 4312156d70

Anything Trump does it evil? :roll: Please quote someone who says stupid shit like this. I'll bet you won't find a single person on this site who has ever said such stupidity.
#15140866
Godstud wrote:@Goranhammer Wrong. You, sir, are lying.

Trump lies. He does this all the time. That's FACT.

‘Tsunami of untruths’: Trump has made 20,000 false or misleading claims – report
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... ing-claims


Funny. I don't recall saying that Trump was the second coming of Abraham Lincoln. Even Trump supporters couldn't say "he never lies" with a straight face.

His campaign had Russian connections. That is also fact. His campaign was involved in criminal actions. That is fact.


First one is. Second one is debatable. Flynn was a sacrificial lamb and did nothing wrong, and only threw himself on his sword because certain agencies threatened him and his family. It's very possible that some members of his team were not on the up-and-up, but since Clinton was known to be dirty with vodka and nothing happened to her, maybe it just became assumed knowledge that some Russian involvement was allowed and even expected.

Trump was not involved, since they could not find a connection to him. That does not mean he wasn't involved, only that they couldn't prove anything. He was never absolved of anything.


That's your argument? Trying to disprove a negative? That's akin to sticking your head in the sand like an ostrich or a two-year-old putting his fingers in his ears saying, "nyah nyah nyah I can't hear you". We're talking about the President of the United fucking States. There isn't a move he makes or a word he says that cannot be verified by SOMEONE. Plus his campaign had more leaks than a faulty toilet. You telling me that NOBODY could come up with a smoking gun?

As mentioned before, if someone doesn't follow their own advice, they are dumb, and that has nothing to do with Trump, who often contributed to the misinformation campaign regarding Covid-19. This is fact.

Trump Is ‘Single Largest Driver’ Of Covid-19 Misinformation, Cornell Study Finds
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/ ... 4312156d70


EVERYONE contributed to misinformation because there were points in time when nobody know the proper information - Trump included. Are you willing to say that everyone dropped the ball to some extent? I am. Democrats were wrong from the fucking get-go. This is not to say that Trump did everything right (far from), but it sounds like you're of the crowd where everything that went wrong was "Orange Man Bad".

All I'm saying is that there is MORE than enough blame to go around.

Anything Trump does it evil? :roll: Please quote someone who says stupid shit like this. I'll bet you won't find a single person on this site who has ever said such stupidity.


I bet I can find a number of people here who will not give him any credit at all for the good he's done. Acting like he was a pure cancer to the country and that no good came of his presidency fits snugly into TDS.
#15140936
Godstud wrote:@Verv Seeing as there are numerous indictments linked to the Russia probe(hardly a hoax when you consider that), I think it is you who needs to make a case.

I listed one of MANY in the link I posted. You go read the rest.

Get to it, slacker!


Russia Russia as much of a hoax as your post is. Not a single American colluded with Russia. So you are either very misinformed or very deceptive.
User avatar
By Godstud
#15140955
Finfinder wrote:Not a single American colluded with Russia. So you are either very misinformed or very deceptive.
You are the one trying to deny reality, so it must be you who is uninformed and deceptive. I provided a link which proved exactly what you are trying to say didn't happen.

That Trump wasn't indicted was either luck, or good planning on his part. He had lots of patsies. That's why he favours loyalty over anything else. Mobsters do that.
User avatar
By Verv
#15140957
Godstud wrote:@Verv Seeing as there are numerous indictments linked to the Russia probe(hardly a hoax when you consider that), I think it is you who needs to make a case.

I listed one of MANY in the link I posted. You go read the rest.

Get to it, slacker!


So, in summary...

You found a single guy who was charged & convicted of process violations. He is of Ukrainian descent and specializes in working as a political consultant and top level Russian language resource, and we can assume he must have stole the election for Trump! because in the course of a multi-decade career where his job is being a political consultant he knows powerful Russosphere players.

Just a completely circumstantial & bizarre argument.

Now, you want me to spend my limited time going through process violation convictions that have nothing to do with Russian collusion even after the greedy fools in the Democrat Party could not prove it in court.

Not a strong showing, Godstud.
User avatar
By Godstud
#15140959
Verv wrote:You found a single guy who was charged & convicted of process violations.
No. You refuse to read the indictments, so you make a stupid assumption. I listed ONE. Connections to Russia are connections to Russia.

Accusing me of not making a strong showing when you are talking shit? :lol:

On August 17, 2020, Roger Stone dropped his appeal of seven felony convictions related to the House of Representatives investigation into ties between the Trump campaign and Russia. This came after Trump commuted Stone's 40-month prison term and $20,000 fine.[55]

The United States Senate Select Committee on Intelligence released its final report on August 18, 2020. The report concluded that there were significant ties between the 2016 Trump presidential campaign and Russia. In particular, they noted that Paul Manafort had hired Konstantin V. Kilimnik, a "Russian intelligence officer," and that Kilimnik was possibly connected to the 2016 hack and leak operation. The investigation was led by Senator Richard Burr (R-NC) until Burr stepped aside for an unrelated investigation into allegedly illegal stock trades: Senator Marco Rubio (R-TX) then led the committee.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Links_bet ... _officials

But hey, be the fool and keep the blinders on.
#15140967
Godstud wrote:You are the one trying to deny reality, so it must be you who is uninformed and deceptive. I provided a link which proved exactly what you are trying to say didn't happen.

That Trump wasn't indicted was either luck, or good planning on his part. He had lots of patsies. That's why he favours loyalty over anything else. Mobsters do that.


Not at all I’m pointing out trolling and spinning from a Canadian ex patriot living in Thailand , stick to things you know stop spreading bullshit lies about the USA.

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