German FM Maas turns down Greece’s call for arms embargo on Turkey - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues and parties in Europe's nation states, the E.U. & Russia.

Moderator: PoFo Europe Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please. This is an international political discussion forum, so please post in English only.
#15145005
Germany’s Foreign Minister Heiko Mass on Monday opposed Greece’s demand to impose an arms embargo on Turkey amid the ongoing Eastern Mediterranean tensions.

Speaking to the Deutsche Presse-Agentur (dpa), Maas said: “I do not find the demand of an arms embargo against Turkey strategically correct. It is not easy to do this against a NATO partner. We saw that NATO ally Turkey easily bought missiles from Russia because it could not buy from the U.S.”

...

German Chancellor Angela Merkel earlier this month also turned down calls by Greece to impose an EU arms embargo on Turkey, underlining Berlin's strategic commitments within the NATO alliance.

Speaking to reporters after an EU leaders' summit in Brussels, Merkel had said she was happy with the outcome of the meeting and said decisions on Turkish-EU relations were also "well-balanced."

...

President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan last week told Merkel in a videoconference call that Turkey wants to turn over a new leaf with the EU. Erdoğan said there was a new "window of opportunity" for Turkey-EU relations to strengthen, but some countries were "trying to create a crisis" that would damage "this positive agenda.”

https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/eu- ... -on-turkey

Germans got the message. Wise boy.

It seems like Greece's claims collapse very quickly.
#15145009
Germany hiding behind NATO when the NATO leader has already imposed sanctions on Turkey is not only ridiculous but it isolates Germany both within the NATO alliance and inside the EU. It also discredits Germany exemplifying its total hypocrisy and utter lack of morals.

In the EU particularly sanctions against Turkey have now been activated on the highest EU level despite German pro-Turkish protestations and even though the current sanctions regime is mild, the fact is that sanctions on Turkey have now been normalised and will get much worse in the future as the important groundwork has been laid and that is 90% of the battle anyway.

Erdogan's and Turkish claims in the Aegean and South of Cyprus have been totally ridiculed, and there is absolutely no way out for Erdogan now, if he pushes for aggression, enormous sanctions will be activated if he stands down and recognises Greek and EU sovereignty as any normal person would, then he will be eaten alive by his supporters.

It is very possible that Turkey recognises Greek borders in exchange for an extended customs union with the EU. That is the EU's and Greece's offer and it would be a win for Turkey anyway as she is gaining something and losing nothing. Greece and EU are offering something in exchange of nothing as that is Greek territory by UN law anyway.

Turkey can either take that path of friendship and partnership or become the new Iran.
#15145382
How is that going to happen? I can tell you that the trend is exactly opposite of your wishes. Turkey's mediterranean posts are heavily militarised. Defence industry is easily catching up with Western rivals. The economy is growing despite sanctions and hostility. Population grows constantly.

Turkey keeps sea routes in Aegean and mediterranean seas. Even Israel accepts that. Egypt can't even manage to make a move against Turkey in Libya. You had a slim chance to succeed against Turkey but Germans killed your very tiny chance.
#15145384
Reality: Mavi Vatan(Blue Homeland) has not happened for you Istanbuller while the EU, US and Canadian sanctions have been activated. If Turkey attempts to make Mavi Vatan into a reality then she will drown in sanctions like Iran at the best case scenario or go to war in the worst case scenario.

Let's assume for one second for the sake of the argument that Turkey goes to war with Greece and that everything work out for you and she even wins the war and makes "Blue Homeland" into a reality, then what?

What will you have achieved exactly? I'm really curious to know your thought process here and how you picture this future where Turkey land grabs European islands and then goes on to become a global superpower.


You wrote "Turkey controls the shipping lanes in the Med, even Israel has accepted that", allow me to give you a reality check Istanbuller:



Your commercial ships in the Med(across all that area that you have illegally marked as yours with Libya) are subject to random searches by the EU naval mission that is headed and led by the Greeks currently patrolling all these waters both de facto and de jure.

You have already accepted the reality that Greece is in full control of its own borders as well as all the international waters surrounding the area and all your attempts this past year to violate these borders has resulted in total humiliation for you both in the field as well as diplomatically. Please tell me Istanbuller, what have you achieved exactly with your Mavi Vatan policy?

As soon as Germany cashes the 10+ billion you owe her contractors for submarines that are already delayed by several years then your last string of hope in the EU will be totally gone. All the above have happened with Germany somewhat on your side just think of what will happen once you have deposited the money in her bank account.

Germany became a bitch to Greece because Greece during the crisis asked Germany to cancel the order of these same stealth submarines citing their factual operational problems as well as the financial crisis as reasons, Germany not only rejected any kind of order cancelation, guaranteeing she will fix the problems but also threatened to take Greece to the Hague and engaged in massive mud-throwing calling the Greeks unreliable on top of all the other stuff that she had already normalised to justify her prolonged torture of the patient and that was during the heart of the crisis when Greece had no money to speak of whatsoever and was relying on the loans to operate. Germany was not only haggling the interest rates and future terms but also where this money would be allocated. This took priority for Germany and was enshrined into a couple of the Memorandums for the Loans.

France on the other hand has a different character as does the US, they are not as cheap as the Germans and have the mind to simply resell to others and take a minor discount for them, robots do not see things like that but very wooden and rigid and hence the current state of affairs in the EU.

That all goes to show that German insistence not to impose an arms embargo on Turkey is solely because of that and not because Germany is actually supporting Turkey, she is just waiting to cash her money for the submarines and that also explains why German refusal for arms sanctions has not prevented other sanctions against Turkey at an EU level and that the bottom line is that Germany officially supports and endorses the internationally recognised Greek position.
#15145897
Your commercial ships in the Med(across all that area that you have illegally marked as yours with Libya) are subject to random searches by the EU naval mission that is headed and led by the Greeks currently patrolling all these waters both de facto and de jure.

Random checks? It just happened for one time. Germany apologized for that later. It was an illegal attempt.

You just had a chance to do that for once. You foolishly wasted your chance with searching of a commercial ship. You don't have a second chance. You just kind stand for that. We don't really understand what Greece is trying to achieve with this. You are small and weak. You may end up in a situation worse than Armenia.

Being a firendly vassal state of Turkey is a better strategy for Greece.
#15145899
The naval mission observing the UN's arms embargo in Libya, operationally managed by the Greeks, is active and getting stronger every day.

No apologies whatsoever were made by anybody, all the waters between Turkey and Libya are under our European jurisdiction and active policing.

Your ships are nowhere to be seen, Erdogan has openly admitted Turkish ships have been removed as a result of politics("to give peace a chance") and not because of "repairs or maintenance" like the previous times.

Your defence minister keeps going mental every day, having a fit of rage against the advanced weapons of the Greek military and navy, calling us names on a daily basis while in Greece not a single peep is made about Turkey, our politicians and leadership have even stopped responding to your insults and accusations and just ignore you now like some crazy homeless person.

In the end, you will either just go quiet and forget your nonsense about revising the Lausanne Treaty and our national borders, or bring this to a head and turn into Libya and Syria.
#15145903
noemon wrote:The naval mission observing the UN's arms embargo in Libya, operationally managed by the Greeks, is active and getting stronger every day.

No apologies whatsoever were made by anybody, all the waters between Turkey and Libya are under our European jurisdiction and active policing.

Your ships are nowhere to be seen, Erdogan has openly admitted Turkish ships have been removed as a result of politics("to give peace a chance") and not because of "repairs or maintenance" like the previous times.

Your defence minister keeps going mental every day, having a fit of rage against the advanced weapons of the Greek military and navy, calling us names on a daily basis while in Greece not a single peep is made about Turkey, our politicians and leadership have even stopped responding to your insults and accusations and just ignore you now like some crazy homeless person.

In the end, you will either just go quiet and forget your nonsense about revising the Lausanne Treaty and our national borders, or bring this to a head and turn into Libya and Syria.

It is more like your wishful thinking. You talk like that because you don't like what is happening.

Greece is not on par with Turkey. It will never be one. Greece's behaviours just make its future darker. Take lessons from what happened to Armenia.

The US today paused its F-35 program because of lack of supplies. They are unable to sustain it without Turkey. You should understand who you are trying to fight.
#15145906
What is happening that I am not aware of?

You claimed that "Turkey controls the shipping lanes in the areas that she illegally demarcated". She doesn't, Greece and the EU control & police the shipping lanes not only in the area Turkey illegally demarcated but in the whole of it.

It's quite evident that you are in a delirium if you think the US stopped producing the F-35 because Turkey left the program and now the Americans don't know what to do.

The F-35 is just yet another sore wound for you(as they will be coming to Greece instead of Turkey) and hence why you get "information" like that from a country that only gives fake news to its citizens.

Istanbuller wrote:Greece is not on par with Turkey.


Greece has never tried to be like Turkey but the other way around has been true for decades and generations. Turkey is so insecure about its people and identity that genetic tests are banned to prevent people from knowing their real ancestry.
#15145907
Yes, it controls sea routes. Germany's attempt on a commercial ship shows EU's weakness. Have you ever thought like this?

I am trying to tell you that it is not "Greece vs Turkey". Erdoğan and Turkey's vision is far beyond than something you can imagine. Controlling eastern mediterranean and being able to reach North African countries is essential for Turkish foreign policy. It is an important part of Turkey's path to be a global Mideast power.
#15145914
Istanbuller wrote:Yes, it controls sea routes. Germany's attempt on a commercial ship shows EU's weakness. Have you ever thought like this?


Policing and inspecting illicit commercial traffic is the objective. The fact is that we are policing these waters and not you.
Greece is running this operation.

I am trying to tell you that it is not "Greece vs Turkey". Erdoğan and Turkey's vision is far beyond than something you can imagine. Controlling eastern mediterranean and being able to reach North African countries is essential for Turkish foreign policy. It is an important part of Turkey's path to be a global Mideast power.


Mate honestly, nobody really cares what you do as long as you stay away from our borders.
#15150759
noemon wrote:Germany hiding behind NATO when the NATO leader has already imposed sanctions on Turkey is not only ridiculous but it isolates Germany both within the NATO alliance and inside the EU. It also discredits Germany exemplifying its total hypocrisy and utter lack of morals.

In the EU particularly sanctions against Turkey have now been activated on the highest EU level despite German pro-Turkish protestations and even though the current sanctions regime is mild, the fact is that sanctions on Turkey have now been normalised and will get much worse in the future as the important groundwork has been laid and that is 90% of the battle anyway.

Erdogan's and Turkish claims in the Aegean and South of Cyprus have been totally ridiculed, and there is absolutely no way out for Erdogan now, if he pushes for aggression, enormous sanctions will be activated if he stands down and recognises Greek and EU sovereignty as any normal person would, then he will be eaten alive by his supporters.

It is very possible that Turkey recognises Greek borders in exchange for an extended customs union with the EU. That is the EU's and Greece's offer and it would be a win for Turkey anyway as she is gaining something and losing nothing. Greece and EU are offering something in exchange of nothing as that is Greek territory by UN law anyway.

Turkey can either take that path of friendship and partnership or become the new Iran.

Well as a Greek I'm for Mr. Erdogan. If we were truly thorough and smart for the longterm game, we would realise that cooperation with erdogan is best thing we can do. If erdogan falls turkey will become very unstable and that wouldn't benefit Greeks at all. The smartest thing would be to let erdogan shwo some "victories" to his countrymen so they don't dethrone him, such as letting oruc reis do research in Greek waters etc(escorted by Greek frigates of course) . keeping him in check and continuing this theatre of "threats" and "rivalry" while in reality erdogan turkey won't be doing something meaningful against EU and Greece .
EU and Germany wants an unstable turkey to keep Greece tied and also because an unstable turkey means profit for European arms industry and politics .
Sometimes I wonder, why do Greeks still think EU actually wants to protect them?
#15150772
There are solutions that benefit Greece a lot in the longterm. The problem is that we fall for the Franco German propaganda.
They play us like puppets. When we realise that real Co operation with Turkey is the only way to actually flourish, only then this whole circus will stop.
Edit: but of course that can be achieved only if thorough men and true leaders like erdogan are in charge of both states.
Unfortunately Greece is currently under control of German minions
#15150776
When Turkey stops claiming Greek territory and arguing for the revision of the Lausanne Treaty I'm certain we can all flourish in peace.

I cannot see any way of being friends with a country that does not recognise its neighbor's borders and that has an active declaration of war open.

I can see how difficult this can be for people with dual ethnic-identity, torn between 2 nations at odds.
#15150779
Hellas me ponas wrote: EU and Germany wants an unstable turkey


Let me be the bastard that speaks for all Europeans and the EU;

No one wants to see a destabilized Turkey as a new Syria or Libya. Those ships sailed, they have come back with crabs and syphilis and it's precisely because of these countries that Germany can dictate EU strategic foreign policy in this case; Keep Erdogan happy and Turkey stable. Without the UK, all that is left is France playing a "good cop, bad cop"-rutine with Germany.

That being said, opportunists will abuse the status quo for their own benefit. :)
#15150781
MadMonk wrote:Let me be the bastard that speaks for all Europeans and the EU;

No one wants to see a destabilized Turkey as a new Syria or Libya. Those ships sailed, they have come back with crabs and syphilis and it's precisely because of these countries that Germany can dictate EU strategic foreign policy in this case; Keep Erdogan happy and Turkey stable. Without the UK, all that is left is France playing a "good cop, bad cop"-rutine with Germany.

That being said, opportunists will abuse the status quo for their own benefit. :)


Yes that's what is being said and claimed. EU actions show different though. If they wanted a stable turkey they would help erdogan (they are masters o deceiving masses so they know millions of ways to help him without conceding meaningful victories to him. with the power of the almighty European media).
Instead they keep luring him into worse situations. I wish erdogan prevails in all of this mess, because he is the only one preventing turks from outbursting to Greece and descent into chaos.
#15150785
MadMonk wrote:Let me be the bastard that speaks for all Europeans and the EU;

No one wants to see a destabilized Turkey as a new Syria or Libya. Those ships sailed, they have come back with crabs and syphilis and it's precisely because of these countries that Germany can dictate EU strategic foreign policy in this case; Keep Erdogan happy and Turkey stable. Without the UK, all that is left is France playing a "good cop, bad cop"-rutine with Germany.

That being said, opportunists will abuse the status quo for their own benefit. :)


Germany's pro-Russian dithering has turned Syria and Libya into ongoing warzones without end in sight as no faction is strong enough to finish it for normality to return. This is because of the EU's aloofness to stand back and do nothing.

The EU being the most proximate global power should have put an end to both theatres conclusively for the sake of her own security as well. But Germany has preferred to support Putin & Erdogan from the sidelines thus prolonging those conflicts and empowering them to make more military adventures. Germany's dithering and proactive arming of Turkey has the potential to cause the same problems inside European borders and that of course will be the point of no return, a point reached several times this past summer with Turkish warships inside official EU territorial borders(not just EEZ). Turkey and Libya have made an official agreement splitting EU territory between themselves.

Germany is not being asked to turn Turkey into Syria, though for German apologists the PR of the argument has a certain allure to it, she was just asked not to sell multi-bullion submarines that are being actively used to bully EU countries to prevent them from exercising sovereignty over their own borders. The objective being to prevent them from developing their gas reserves thus keeping Europe subject to Russian and Azerbaijani gas and as such subject to Putin's and Erdogan's whims and all that with Germany's weapons.

3 countries made a pivot to the EU by electing pro EU governments and all 3 got invaded and had territory removed from them.
Georgia, Ukraine and Armenia. That is a direct result of German foreign policy.


Hellas me ponas wrote:Yes that's what is being said and claimed. EU actions show different though. If they wanted a stable turkey they would help erdogan (they are masters o deceiving masses so they know millions of ways to help him without conceding meaningful victories to him. with the power of the almighty European media).
Instead they keep luring him into worse situations. I wish erdogan prevails in all of this mess, because he is the only one preventing turks from outbursting to Greece and descent into chaos.


Germany is helping Turkey by selling her weapons to bully Greece and by preventing arms sanctions against her when even Canada has imposed after the second Armenian ethnic-cleansing.
#15150788
Turkey has invaded Armenia, Syria, Libya, and has openly and officially declared war to Greece.

The EU is a puppet to Putin and Erdogan because of Russian and Azerbaijani gas, officially paying Turkey tribute to subsidise her military adventures= under the cover of "refugees" when Turkey is the only active war player in Syria.

That is why the EU has stood back while Turkey and Russia have invaded, all the countries surrounding her borders.

Syria, Libya, Ukraine, Georgia and Armenia and has done absolutely nothing about it.
How to deal with Trump?

The idea the West is in the ME to retain peace is[…]

Creating a guide for doctors to better diagnose sk[…]

Which civilization didn't thought of themselves as[…]

US bombs Syria

Covid relief payments since election: $0 Missiles […]