[noemon]

hm, this is personal prejudice or fact based opinion, we can open new thread for further ontopic elaboration, but in this context I'll say Navalny can just hurt Russia in every respect, first he is radical that potentially could make as internal so as external problems [1] then he is no match as political figure to Putin in respect to geopolitics, and last he is too much tied to west so he would become sovereign as Putin ...

Russia broke relations with the Orthodox world because the Ukrainian church was recognised as independent. A privilege already afforded to Bulgaria, Albania, Romania, and a whole bunch of countries.

In Russia, poverty is rampant, people have no money to feed themselves, while Russia has the largest stockpile of nuclear weapons in the world.

Her infrastructure is crumbling, her economy is the size of Italy's while she is the largest and richest country in the world in natural resources.

How is that not a disgrace and an affront to civilisation itself?

[Odiseizam]

@noemon I will open new thread later where we could measure this opinion so we would not dive deep in oftopic discussion here , but I'll just say believe me if in imaginary way Navalny comes to power Russia will crumble instantly in chaos, think even bigger than the transitional post-soviet, and not because he is so dangerous as because any liberal vacuum after Putin will be advantage for west to act instantly in offensive on many levels, what even now is not easy to be contained what about in liberal circumstances!

[noemon]

The west "taking over" Russia much the same way she took over Germany and Eastern Europe will be a blessing for Russia and its people just like it was for Germany and all of Eastern Europe.

[Odiseizam]

hm hm hm, Germany is not comparable by any means with Russia, back then it was pumped so it would be secured as buffer ally, but lets say Russia is rich would that make west safer or more rich, no by no means, they just want to corner Russia and hold it at least on sleep mode, everything else is just unimaginable

[noemon]

The former soviet countries are very comparable and they are better off in the west than under the Russian system. The same would be true for Russia.

I'm sure most Russian people want this to happen because they are watching the world go by while they are imprisoned in their sub-standard reality.

Navalny represents this change and that is why he is so dangerous. Russian trolls can try and sell this as as a sell-out to the west, but all countries are much better off so that is just a stupid label Russian propagandists use to turn their own people into "besieged nationalists".

I highly doubt anyone in Russia believes them or even cares anymore. This nonsense is more popular and believable among 'woke western crowds' than it is among Russians.

[Beren]

he [Navalny] is no match as political figure to Putin

Maybe he's not, but it's a late Putin era, so he might have a chance. But if he doesn't have a chance to successfully challenge Putin himself as long as he reigns, he could challenge his successor later or disrupt the transition of power from Putin to his successor. It must be hard for Putin to decide if he should be more concerned about the West or China, however, with Navalny the West poses a very direct and concrete threat to him he seems to have decided to deal with firmly finally.

[Ganeshas Rat]

I'm sure most Russian people want this to happen because they are watching the world go by while they are imprisoned in their sub-standard reality.

Yep, can't wait till someone comes and removes trash like the Odyssey out of curriculum.

[noemon]

Yep, can't wait till someone comes and removes trash like the Odyssey out of curriculum.

Yeah because if Russia were to be integrated like the rest of Eastern Europe she would turn into a "woke helltopia".

[Odiseizam]

@Beren my humble opinion is that the era of Putin whoever will be his succesor will continue, even on greater level if we know that global economic meltdown is imminent in this or eventually the next decade - depending how e-money (blockchain) will refresh current fiat world economy on macroeconomic level, in such circumstance Russia will become way better and greater than today ...

@noemon the measure of happiness and quality of life is different in different countries, probably You want to say that russians would live happy as americans if they open to the western banc'corp expansionism!? but most probably You havent seen the usA stats with 30 million medically uninsured americans [1]+ 50 mil. indebted by med.insurance [1] along the 20 million homeless (deep poverty) [2] + 30 million poor [2] + 30 millions threaten by eviction amid last covid-19 lockdown [3]

[Beren]

@Beren my humble opinion is that the era of Putin whoever will be his succesor will continue, even on greater level if we know that global economic meltdown is imminent in this or eventually the next decade - depending how e-money (blockchain) will refresh current fiat world economy on macroeconomic level, in such circumstance Russia will become way better and greater than today ...

In my humble opinion Russia either integrates successfully with the EU or becomes China's Canada in a decade or two following Putin's rule.

[noemon]

Russia can resemble European economics more than than US.

In my humble opinion Russia either integrates successfully with the EU or becomes China's Canada in a decade or two following Putin's rule.

That should be obvious to any rational person in Russia.

[Odiseizam]

@Beren this got way too oftopic for this thread, but i"ll replay this time ... the first proposition is natural but unimaginable because eU is heading to merge with usA, TTIP was the first economic step till eu got federalized and completely unites with usA, yes there is other option for this occupation of eU, what eventually could happen if doomsday scenarios roll out from the nato basement, but above all there is foreseeable alternative in SCO and BRICS for Russia and for sure with the last gas pipelines the ties with China because are more and more stronger, any threat from south is simply ridiculous idea, even China overpowers Russia by any military means Russia already has in place push-the-button solutions, it has it also with usA today it could sink half of their territories in just one day by submarines, it dont needs even to open the hypersonic weapon attack loop its enough as defense system ...

[noemon]

Russia has always been part of Europe except for when she turned communist. Her future either lies with Europe or as a satellite of China. Even if Europe merges with the US, the presence of Russia with Europe will tip the scales in favour of Eurasia and if not, Eurasia and the Anglo-Saxon will be powerful allies.

This is not off-topic because according to Russian trolls, Navalny represents this change exactly.

[Odiseizam]

Russia can resemble European economics more than than US.

hm for Navalny it would take maybe 300 years to catch up with their rhythm yet think Putin could succeed in one year if he occupy only Germany, tho this means ww3 and no one will have any standard any more!

[Heisenberg]

Since Navalny is a nationalist, as you pointed out, he can't be another Yeltsin, selling Russia to the West.

Try to be a little consistent.

I don't think I'm being inconsistent at all. Look at Ukraine. When the EU, US and UK supported the "Euromaidan" nonsense, they thought they'd found their Ukrainian Yeltsin figure in the form of Petro Poroshenko. Then, as things tend to go with CIA and MI6-supported sham revolutions, they lost control of their chosen idiot and it resulted in the far right gaining the ascendancy in Ukraine. I suspect exactly the same thing will happen if they western powers get their way and Navalny comes to power: they'll think they finally have a nice "liberal" puppet, but the Russian neo-Nazis who have played a part in Navalny attaining his current level of prominence might have other ideas.

These things keep happening because westerners have no interest in learning any lessons from history, and wrongly assume - mostly because it doesn't directly affect their lives - that removing a Big Bad figure automatically makes things better. In the last 20 years alone we've seen exactly the same thing take shape in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Ukraine and Bolivia. You'd think the liberal interventionists might have learned at least something from that prolonged record of failure!

[noemon]

@Heisenberg Are you saying that Ukrainians and Russians are unworthy to be trusted to elect their own leaders and require a Putin to set them straight?

Neonatal democracies have teething problems just like Brexit.

[Odiseizam]

@noemon now we will start historical debate and for sure if we are not already we will dive then deep oftopic ...

now Russia was never european ally, yes it embraced european trends and ties in romanticism, but that have lead to lavish corruption of its Orthodox Past and that momentum have little by little made from it western communist experiment instead Royal Guardian Of Orthodoxy, now things are coming little by little in their right place ...

Russia for sure is by all means more tied with China as in defense so as in science and after latest continuous sanctions from west think more and more economically tie to south, even they are preparing joint trend of blockchain backed by gold that would be counterpart to the western backed by derivatives and stocks, so lets wait and see who will be right in respect of this notion that Russia must go with eU ...

[noemon]

@noemon now we will start historical debate and for sure if we are not already we will dive then deep oftopic ...

now Russia was never european ally, yes it embraced european trend in romanticism, but that have lead to lavish corruption of its Orthodox Past and that momentum have little by little made from it western communist experiment instead Royal Guardian Of Orthodoxy, now thing are coming little by little in their right place ...

Russia for sure is by all means more tied with China as in defense so as in science and after latest continuous sanctions from west think more and more economically tie to south, even they are preparing joint trend of blockchain backed by gold that would be counterpart to the western backed by derivatives and stocks, so lets wait and see who will be right in respect of this notion that Russia must go with EU ...

Russia was an integral part of the Concert of Europe and every single European alliance for the past 500 years at least. Orthodox and Catholics have always been a single Church that got split.

Russia has always considered itself European.

[Ganeshas Rat]

These things keep happening because westerners have no interest in learning any lessons from history, and wrongly assume - mostly because it doesn't directly affect their lives - that removing a Big Bad figure automatically makes things better. In the last 20 years alone we've seen exactly the same thing take shape in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Ukraine and Bolivia. You'd think the liberal interventionists might have learned at least something from that prolonged record of failure!

When it comes to "those people are idiots who don't understand what they are doing" it's a good thing to consider next questions:

1) Do I know everything these people know about the situation or they know something I don't know?
2) Do I know the goals of these people or they try to achieve something different?

It's much easier to live in the world where other people can think rationally too and act in their best interests. Where was the chaos suddenly structures and schemes appear, things start to make sense, become organized, become predictable.

[Heisenberg]

@Heisenberg Are you saying that Ukrainians and Russian are unworthy to be trusted to elect their own leader and require a Putin to set them straight?

Yeah, as you know I'm a big proponent of the theory that non-westerners are subhuman and can't govern themselves. The non-Aryan hordes need a firm hand to keep them in place, much like what is needed when housetraining a puppy.

This is definitely what I think and definitely a reasonable interpretation of what I have said in this thread.