Manufacturing Consent: On Way Out, Pompeo Says Chinese Treatment of Uyghers is 'Genocide' - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15151636
Fasces wrote:It does in the section you cited - that's what physical destruction means.


China engages in that too.

In June 2020, German anthropologist and Sinology scholar Adrian Zenz released a report, "Sterilizations, IUDs, and Mandatory Birth Control: The CCP’s Campaign to Suppress Uyghur Birthrates in Xinjiang."[199][200] His report alleged that Uyghur women, under the threat of internment, were being forced to abort children, undergo sterilization surgery, and be fitted with intrauterine devices.[201] Zenz's analysis of these mass sterilization efforts by the government revealed that growth rates in the Uyghur region had declined 60% between 2015 and 2018,[202] with the two largest Uyghur prefectures declining 84% in that same time period.[200] The birth rate declined a further 24% across the region in 2019 alone.[202] These declines in the birth rate stand in contrast to a 4.2% drop across all of China in 2019.[202] The report also noted that in 2014, 2.5% of new IUD placements throughout the country were in Xinjiang.[199] By 2018, 80% of new IUD placements were in Xinjiang despite the region comprising 1.8% of the national population.[200] Zenz asserted that these efforts by the Chinese government to repress the Uyghur birth rate met the criteria of genocide under Article II, Section D of the United Nations Genocide Convention by "imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group."[202][200]


Fasces wrote:Any source whatsoever?


Since 2014, Uyghurs in Xinjiang have been affected by extensive controls and restrictions which the Chinese government has imposed upon their religious, cultural, economic and social lives.[162][163][164][165] In Xinjiang, the Chinese government has expanded police surveillance to watch for signs of "religious extremism" that include owning books about Uyghurs, growing a beard, having a prayer rug, or quitting smoking or drinking. The government had also installed cameras in the homes of private citizens.[166][167]

Further, at least 120,000 (and possibly over 1 million)[168] Uyghurs are detained in mass detention camps,[169] termed "re-education camps", aimed at changing the political thinking of detainees, their identities, and their religious beliefs.[170] Some of these facilities keep prisoners detained around the clock, while others release their inmates at night to return home. According to Chinese government operating procedures, the main feature of the camps is to ensure adherence to Chinese Communist Party ideology. Inmates are continuously held captive in the camps for a minimum of 12 months depending on their performance on Chinese ideology tests.[171] The New York Times has reported inmates are required to "sing hymns praising the Chinese Communist Party and write 'self-criticism' essays," and that prisoners are also subjected to physical and verbal abuse by prison guards.[166] Chinese officials are sometimes assigned to monitor the families of current inmates, and women have been detained due to actions by their sons or husbands.[166]

In 2017, Human Rights Watch released a report saying "The Chinese government agents should immediately free people held in unlawful 'political education' centers in Xinjiang, and shut them down."[172] The internment, along with mass surveillance and intelligence officials inserting themselves into Uyghur families, led to widespread accusations of cultural genocide against the CPC. In particular, the size of the operation was found to have doubled over 2018.[173] Satellite evidence suggests China destroyed more than two dozen Uyghur Muslim religious sites between 2016 and 2018.[174]

The government denied the existence of the camps initially, but then changed their stance to claim that the camps serve to combat terrorism and give vocational training to the Uyghur people.[175] Activists have called for the camps to be opened to visitors to prove their function. Media groups have reported that many in the camps were forcibly detained there in rough unhygienic conditions while undergoing political indoctrination.[176] The lengthy isolation periods between Uyghur men and women has been interpreted by some analysts as an attempt to inhibit Uyghur procreation in order to change the ethnic demographics of the country.[177]

An October 2018 exposé by the BBC News claimed, based on analysis of satellite imagery collected over time, that hundreds of thousands of Uyghurs were interned in rapidly expanding camps.[178] It was also reported in 2019 that "hundreds" of writers, artists, and academics had been imprisoned, in what the magazine qualified as an attempt to "punish any form of religious or cultural expression" among Uyghurs.[179]

Parallel to the forceful detainment of millions of adults, in 2017 alone at least half a million children were also forcefully separated from their families, and placed in pre-school camps with prison-style surveillance systems and 10,000 volt electric fences.[180]


Definition
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
#15151640
1. Adrian fucking Zenz, Haha

2. China uses forced sterilization on all ethnic groups, not just Uigher, as part of its enforcement of the Two-Child policy. Until 3 years ago, ethnic minorities were actually exempted from all birth control measures - the recent uptick is more of a catch-up than indicative of anything nefarious (beyond forced birth control as a concept itself). It isn't targeting a single ethnic group, and as such, does not meet the definition for genocide. That all being said, Adrian Zenz is the source - an expert on China that believes it is his divine mission to end communism, says he regularly talks to God, who doesn't read or speak Chinese, and who has never set foot in China. :lol: Regardless, Uiygher ethnic population has nearly doubled in the last ten years, and Uiygher birthrates remain above replacement levels and above the average for China, so if China is trying to ensure the destruction of an ethnic group, they're failing miserably.

3. Human Rights Watch is an arm of the US state, receiving direct funding from Congress, and employing former members of the US state department. It is hardly an impartial observer with no agenda. That being said, they're somewhat more competent than Adrian Zenz, so whatever. The report seems to literally just be criticizing sending children to school. If sending children to class is "kidnapping" to you noemon, I don't know what to say. You'd be just as angry if the Chinese prohibited sending Uiygher children to public schools. :eh:
#15151646
1) Address the arguments not the messenger. That is called an ad-hom.

2) It does not explain the drop in numbers when compared to the rest of China.

Zenz's analysis of these mass sterilization efforts by the government revealed that growth rates in the Uyghur region had declined 60% between 2015 and 2018,[202] with the two largest Uyghur prefectures declining 84% in that same time period.[200] The birth rate declined a further 24% across the region in 2019 alone.[202] These declines in the birth rate stand in contrast to a 4.2% drop across all of China in 2019.[202]


3) Address the arguments not the messenger. That is called an ad-hom.

Please do not use official Chinese propaganda about doing it for the children's education, forcibly removing children from one group to another is the very definition of genocide as linked and quoted.
#15151653
noemon wrote:1) Address the arguments not the messenger. That is called an ad-hom.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy

Adrian Zenz has been caught outright fabricating numbers. He literally can't read Chinese. His only published book is called something like "Why some Believers Will be Left on Earth During the Rapture and Their Divine Mission."

He is as reliable a source as a tabloid magazine, and worth about as much effort to respond to. You may as well cite 'Q' as evidence of the Deep State. :lol:

noemon wrote:2) It does not explain the drop in numbers when compared to the rest of China.


For the population growth rate decline, it does explain that - these areas still have higher growth rates than the rest of China, and is the result of the two child policy being extended to minority groups for the first time in 2015.

In that same article, incidentally, Zenz carried a decimal point incorrectly when he was describing IUD placement in Uiygher women, turning a non-story into a sensational one about forced sterilization practices. Zenz is a joke and not above outright fabrication.

noemon wrote:Please do not use official Chinese propaganda


1) Address the arguments not the messenger. That is called an ad-hom.

Please do not use official Chinese propaganda about doing it for the children's education, forcibly removing children from one group to another is the very definition of genocide as linked and quoted.


Forcibly removing them to go where, noemon. Where do the children go when they are forcibly removed?

It's a boarding school. Like 50% of all Chinese secondary school students attend, and 15% of all Chinese primary school students attend. It isn't "propaganda", it just is. The kids are being sent to school, just like kids are forced to by the state in every Western country. If you don't send your kid to school in Greece, what does the state do?

In any case, you've betrayed yourself here - any evidence that absolves China is 'propaganda'. You hold, like many Westerners, an unfalsifiable belief that China is a bad actor. It is a faith based position. Anything that demonstrates otherwise is lies and propaganda, and anything that demonstrates it, regardless of the credibility of the source, is trustworthy and believable. Can't do much about that, so I won't bother.
#15151662
Fasces wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy


That is false because the argument is not that your ad-hom makes your "argument" wrong. It's that you have no argument other than the ad-hom and that is a fallacy. An argument is required indeed, such as for example citing figures that prove the figures cited to be wrong. It doesn't seem to be the case however, you just want to misinterpret the data provided thus admitting that the data cited are in fact correct:

Fasces wrote:For the population growth rate decline, it does explain that - these areas still have higher growth rates than the rest of China, and is the result of the two child policy being extended to minority groups for the first time in 2015.


How does that explain this:

mass sterilization efforts by the government revealed that growth rates in the Uyghur region had declined 60% between 2015 and 2018,[202] with the two largest Uyghur prefectures declining 84% in that same time period.[200] The birth rate declined a further 24% across the region in 2019 alone.[202] These declines in the birth rate stand in contrast to a 4.2% drop across all of China in 2019.[202]


Forcibly removing them to go where, noemon. Where do the children go when they are forcibly removed?

It's a boarding school. Like 50% of all Chinese secondary school students attend, and 15% of all Chinese primary school students attend. It isn't "propaganda", it just is. The kids are being sent to school, just like kids are forced to by the state in every Western country. If you don't send your kid to school in Greece, what does the state do?


Forcible boarding schools are called internment camps. Boarding schools are not forcible in any country in the world and not even in China unless you 're a Uighur. Parents have a choice where to send their children for education, not have their children removed from them to be instructed that they cannot be Muslim, cannot attend religious services and then send them back anew like having been subjected to a lobotomy. Removing children from one group and placing them in another group is the very definition of genocide.
#15151666
Fasces wrote:Not at the cost of stability. Belt and Road diplomacy is highly dependent on liberal language regarding the importance of global institutions, bilateral relationships, and stability. Deng had a famous saying "keep a low profile and bide your time" that Xi partially rejected in 2017, calling on China to assume a role of global leadership. It could be tempting to read this as a signal for increased aggression internationally, and China has certainly escalated its level of bluster. However, Wang Huning and Li Keqiang have remained a constant power in the Chinese Politburo and have near autonomy over managing the foreign policy of the Chinese state (this is another thing Western readers get wrong, incidentally - while Xi is unquestionably the head, his relationship with the Politburo is much more of a first-among-equals leadership style that is typical in Chinese governing culture). Li and Wang over the last few years have wanted China to fill the vacuum as a stable, calm, and senior statesman in a coherent and established national order. While they may want to rearrange a few chairs, they eschew any sort of revolutionary change, preferring to advance slowly.


Very interesting. Do you believe Xi's stance may signal a shift in the works for the long run?

Fasces wrote:I'm more lenient in my expectations of countries with pretensions to becoming great powers with nukes and carriers and whatnot. I want a few acres, some goats, maybe a school to run/work at, some Chinese trade for the wife to have a job and I'll have a happy and quiet life. :D

It is very hard for foreigners to buy land in China, if not outright impossible, and returning to the United States seems very unappealing since this last year. Spanish citizenship makes Latin America easy to move to, though.


I think you could try it if you want. The problem is that the difference between LATAM managers and American ones is fairly notable. I can actually compare now.

Politically, Latin America is not all that stable either.

I'd wait and see what happens here in the US now that Biden has been sworn in, or maybe consider another developed country. I hope the US gets a more normal government.
#15151673
noemon wrote:That is false because the argument is not that your ad-hom makes your "argument" wrong. It's that you have no argument other than the ad-hom. And an argument is required indeed, such as for example citing figures that prove the figures cited to be wrong.


The figures are very unlikely to be correct, simply because Zenz has a history of fabricating figures. However, see if you can follow along.

Zenz claims to be measuring the delta in birth rates and arguing that this shows that the Uiygher are being systematically eradicated. This is not what the numbers show.

For example, assume Xinjiang has 5 children per mother, and a typical Chinese province has 1.2 children per mother.

If the law starts getting enforced in hypothetical Xinjiang, and the average birth rate goes from 5 to 3, while the birth rate naturally declines in the rest of China (which has already had the birth laws enforced for decades) from 1.2 to 1.16, which group of people had the greater decline in birth rates? The Uiyghers, an almost 80% decline!

Yet, which group of people has a higher birth rate overall? Still the Uiyghers, more than double the average!

Uiygher populations in China and Xinjiang are growing faster than the national average, and faster than the Xinjiang average for non-Uiygher. The numbers do not demonstrate what Zenz wants them to demonstrate. Even if Uiyghers have had a greater decline in birth rates, they still outpace non-Uiygher populations.


Forcible boarding schools are called internment camps. Boarding schools are not forcible in any country in the world and not even in China unless you 're a Uighur.


Chinese education, like education in many parts of the world, is compulsary. Parents do not have a right to refuse to send their children to school, though they do have the right to pay for private education.

Rural parts of China do not tend to have markets large enough to support many private education institutions. You still have to send the children to school, despite a lack of options.

Boarding schools are common place in China. I teach at one myself. Half of all rural secondary students in China attend a public boarding school, and 15% of all rural primary school students do as well. In urban areas, the numbers drop to about 20% and 4%.

It is, quite simply, a cultural difference between China and the West. Boarding schools are popular. In order to more effectively concentrate resources, rural areas in China, regardless of ethnic group, tend to use boarding schools. They centralize the school in a small accessible city, and rural parents, especially those working in other areas or otherwise unavailable, send their children to these centers.

Xinjiang is no different. The big difference is that many parents are themselves, thanks to China's overzealous data driven anti-terrorism campaign, are sent to vocational centers / internment camps themselves. Without parents at home, the only option for many children is to attend a boarding school.

Yes, China engages in state-sanctioned atheism and prohibits religious proselytization to minors.

This isn't a targeted action against Uiyghers, but consistent behavior across the whole of China which precludes it being a genocidal action.

But if China did not send these kids to school and gave them special exemptions, they'd be equally criticized. The Western position is simply impossible to satisfy. If you teach the children, you're seperating them. If you don't, you're alienating and isolating them from their peers and sending them down a path of lifetime poverty. If you teach them in Uiygher, you're denying them linguistic skills they need to succeed in the Chinese economy. If you teach them in Chinese, you are erasing their heritage. It's all ridiculous.


wat0n wrote:Very interesting. Do you believe Xi's stance may signal a shift in the works for the long run?

Depends. He's a populist, and popular with the people and less popular with the establishment. He's a more competent, less bombastic Trump, but from a similar ideological place. If he can outmaneuver the Politburo and fill it with loyalists, then he might have more autonomy in the future - but even then, it is hard to say whether he'd change course significantly. Xi has accomplished a lot of his goals - China today is a very different place from ten years ago, even internationally, and he may not want to mess with what is clearly working for him.

I think you could try it if you want. The problem is that the difference between LATAM managers and American ones is fairly notable. I can actually compare now.

Politically, Latin America is not all that stable either.


I've lived in Cambodia and Costa Rica for a year each before. I know the difference in lifestyles and expectations. We're not planning on starting a family, for example, which makes this decision easier. This region also has a lot of opportunities opening up, especially for us as we're fluent in English, Spanish, and Chinese (well, I'm working on Chinese and she's outpacing me on Spanish).
#15151675
Fasces wrote:Without parents at home, the only option for many children is to attend a boarding school.


That is not forcible placement in an internment camp. Mate honestly. :roll:

This isn't a targeted action against Uiyghers, but consistent behavior across the whole of China which precludes it being a genocidal action.


There is a clear distinction between China's 5 Official State Sanctioned Religions and the Uighurs who are not state-sanctioned and as a result face widespread discrimination and what amounts to genocide when even you admit the intent being to remove this group from existence in an effort to Sinicise them all.
#15151677
That is not forcible placement in an internment camp.


What should they do, then? Throw them in cages with the parents? :roll:

The child is being educated. Boarding schools are not out of the ordinary in Chinese education.

There is a clear distinction between China's 5 Official State Sanctioned Religions and the Uighurs who are not state-sanctioned and as a result face widespread discrimination and what amounts to genocide when even you admit the intent being to remove this group from existence in an effort to Sinicise them all.


The intent is not to remove from existence or eradicate their culture. The intent is to end separatist sentiment.
#15151715
@noemon Could you post the link as well? I feel that your source is lying with statistics by removing context that doesn't fit their narrative. It could be that the Uighur birth rate went from 3x that of Han Chinese to 1.5x due to them being exempt from many of China's family planning directives until recently, as all ethnic minorities were. It could be that many Han women already have IUDs and stop at 1 and the Uighurs are playing catch up.

In China it's considered acceptable to make deep social sacrifices on behalf of your children. Many children only see their parents for 1 or 2 weeks per year after they move to the coast for work and some parents will send their kids to boarding schools at a young age in the hope they will excel at academics or athletics.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -bars.html

"To achieve a great leap a generation must be sacrificed."
-Liu Zhijun

(Yes I know these words came back to haunt him.)
#15151718
Fasces wrote: Depends. He's a populist, and popular with the people and less popular with the establishment. He's a more competent, less bombastic Trump, but from a similar ideological place. If he can outmaneuver the Politburo and fill it with loyalists, then he might have more autonomy in the future - but even then, it is hard to say whether he'd change course significantly. Xi has accomplished a lot of his goals - China today is a very different place from ten years ago, even internationally, and he may not want to mess with what is clearly working for him.


I see. Thanks for the local perspective - how is the issue of nationalism progressing in China? Is it true there's a big generational divide, with the younger generation being way more nationalist than the older one?

Fasces wrote:
I've lived in Cambodia and Costa Rica for a year each before. I know the difference in lifestyles and expectations. We're not planning on starting a family, for example, which makes this decision easier. This region also has a lot of opportunities opening up, especially for us as we're fluent in English, Spanish, and Chinese (well, I'm working on Chinese and she's outpacing me on Spanish).


Ah, if your expectations are adjusted then I guess it should be fine. You do get some things non-Hispanic cultures won't generally give you, and which I've learned to appreciate now that I live in the US (but those good things have their dark side too).
#15151722
Literal US propaganda arms i.e. Adrian Zenz (who is somehow behind most of the sources saying China Bad), HRW, Radio Free Asia etc are spearheading a massive anti-china campaign under the false pretence of morality and they never cite any sources just a vague, "Adrian Zenz notes", "An ex-pat told us" and somehow that's enough. This has literally been the modus-operandi of the western propaganda campaign for as long as the concept of propaganda has existed and yet every single time western populace falls for it, hook line and sinker. How many times are people going to plead, "we didn't know better at the time"?

In the meantime, there is an actual humanitarian crisis in Yemen which can be actually stopped just by the US deciding to not help Saudis but nope the American support that has enabled the deaths and displacement of millions is not an issue for the clowns like Pompey, apparently.

Once again such dangerous propaganda campaigns can potentially lead to a horrific situation in future as history has shown us.
#15151734
Fasces wrote:What should they do, then? Throw them in cages with the parents? :roll:

The child is being educated. Boarding schools are not out of the ordinary in Chinese education.


The child is being forcibly removed from its parents, forcibly lobotomised to hate its own religion and ethnic-identity and then sent back.

You 're saying this is just a "boarding school" and that it's "standard practice" across the world and in China. But it isn't.

Fasces wrote:The intent is not to remove from existence or eradicate their culture. The intent is to end separatist sentiment.


The intent is to eradicate the identity of this group and place the children into another group, which according to its official definition is what is genocide.

AFAIK wrote:Could you post the link as well? I feel that your source is lying with statistics


You feel it, so it must be true, right?

The source is wikipedia.

If you believe the numbers are wrong then provide evidence of different numbers.

AFAIK wrote:In China it's considered acceptable to make deep social sacrifices on behalf of your children.


In the entire world people make sacrifices for their children but the Uighur parents are not willfully taking them there to educate them, their children are taken away by force from them.

fuser wrote:Once again such dangerous propaganda campaigns can potentially lead to a horrific situation in future as history has shown us.


Ignoring ongoing genocide under the pretext of "the US said it, it makes it 'propaganda'" is total nonsense and a fallacy. Ignoring genocide does lead to horrific situations indeed. Instead of dismissing what is being reported you need to provide evidence against it and from what it seems neither you, nor Fasces are capable of doing that; further confirming that what is going on there is true.

Fuser wrote:How many times are people going to plead, "we didn't know better at the time"?


Which is something you should ask yourself.
#15151756
I am asking that question, and it's precisely the reason why I am not falling for another smear campaign originating from West that western populace so readily falls for again and again. I have not forgotten Libya, weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Nayriah testimony and loads more.

This is a classic modus opendi, where US with its allies will create a false narrative to ready it's populace to support destabilization and some times all out war effort against any nation/region that in any shape and form looks to threaten American/Western capital hegemony. It's ridiculous how many times this has been repeated and yet people keep falling for this. So no it's not propaganda because US says so, it's more like when it's quack like a duck, looks like a duck, it is a duck. I mean seriously if you have to use Adrian Zenz, you don't have any case at all.

Btw I am once again repeating as it needs to be repeated, there is an actual humanitarian crisis going on in Yemen and US is literally complicit in it, if western governments and it's people actually cared, they could stop it right now, ffs children are literally starving to death as we speak but hardly anything on that front, it's just time for the disgusting yellow fever part two.
#15151757
This is not an argument that China is not doing what is being reported.

fuser wrote:Btw I am once again repeating as it needs to be repeated, there is an actual humanitarian crisis going on in Yemen and US is literally complicit in it, if western governments and it's people actually cared, they could stop it right now, ffs children are literally starving to death as we speak but hardly anything on that front, it's just time for the disgusting yellow fever part two.


No you aren't, you are merely propagating what you believe is in your own interest and using whataboutism to distract from the very obvious Chinese crimes.

The US is not the pool of Siloam where you get to white-wash every single evil in the world. I do not care what you think what more we should say for the US actions in Yemen or the Middle-east other than call them out for what they are which is what I have been doing in here for many years. Asking me to criticise the US(as I have been doing) but give China a pass is quite ridiculous, hypocritical and reeks of propaganda.

This forum and myself did not give the US a pass for its crimes in the M-E, nor did I give a pass to Britain, France or Israel, or Russia, nor anybody for that matter and I am not going to give China a pass now because that would just make me complicit to genocide, ethnic-cleansing and crimes against humanity.

Your whataboutism is as low as all other whataboutisms we have dealt with in the past largely with your own participation along with Fasces'. You have no excuse. Neither of you do. Screaming USA when China's crimes become evident does not do you any favours, it merely underlines your own hypocrisy and demonstrates that you are precisely what you think is wrong with the world.

Namely a world with no morals, no compass, no integrity, no human rights ideals and no standards but a nihilist one.

Our protestations against the US had results, it took a while but they did, PoFo's dissent became mainstream, a conversation developed in the US, someone was elected under the promise to stop US adventurism. Give it time and the protestations about China's fascism, mistreatment of minorities will also get results, if you did not believe so you would not even be posting in the first place.

You whinge that more should be said or done about the US before we talk about China, but a lot has been said and done, by me, you and Fasces. Decency and integrity necessitate that you would direct the same energies against China as those you have already directed against the US and "ze west". Anything less is low by your own standards.
#15151762
First of all I am not accusing you or the forum personally of anything, stop taking it as such.

Neither has the forum stood for anything collectively, it has always been different perspectives.

Finally this is not what aboutism at all, it does exposes the duplicity of western narrative where an actual humanitarian crisis that they are complicit in is ignored while a false narrative around China is being created by literal propaganda arms of US who have been doing this for years and rather than learning from past, people are buying into this utter nonsense that western media wraps around moralastic package.

Now I don't have anything else to add but the gist here is that thisbis nothing but yellow fever 2.0 which must be defeated for the sake of billions.
#15151765
fuser wrote:First of all I am not accusing you or the forum personally of anything, stop taking it as such.

Neither has the forum stood for anything collectively, it has always been different perspectives.

Finally this is not what aboutism at all, it does exposes the duplicity of western narrative where an actual humanitarian crisis that they are complicit in is ignored while a false narrative around China is being created by literal propaganda arms of US who have been doing this for years and rather than learning from past, people are buying into this utter nonsense that western media wraps around moralastic package.

Now I don't have anything else to add but the gist here is that thisbis nothing but yellow fever 2.0 which must be defeated for the sake of billions.


So this forum does not stand for anything "collectively" but 'western narrative'(presumably in this forum) does!

Like, seriously? This alone proves your contradiction and dismantles your whataboutism.

Key word is 'consensus'. This forum had developed a consensus that "the US is the prime source of evil in the world" a long time before this became mainstream. Myself, Rei, you, Fasces, Heisenberg, Potemkin and many many others cultivated this consensus since before 4chan was a thing. Clearly some of us were doing it for the principle(actions taken by the US that went against logic, human rights and a whole bunch of things) and others were doing it just to cheer for their football team. Which one are you?

China has been tacitly ignored for far too long, people suffer as a result. Her fascist policies deserve to be outed just like the policies of those you mentioned. Anything less is establishing a nihilist hypocrisy that serves to justify anything & everybody.

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