Biden cancels oil pipeline - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15152273
XogGyux wrote:No tesla roof? :lol: 2 Birds, one expensive stone?

:)

Looking at doing a metal roof.


blackjack21 wrote:https://petersendean.com/ does both roofing and panels. Basically, you want to figure out what your electric rate is, particularly in the summer months when you're running AC. In California, because of cap-and-trade, they jack up the price the more electricity you use. So you might start with enough to run a refrigerator, washer and dryer at $0.18 per KWh, but then they start jacking the price up fast to where you might be paying $0.37 per KWh. That's California though. Other states don't have that, so you have to look at how much you can generate (if your're in the sunbelt) vs. the price of panels (which are coming down in price as performance improves). In California, it's a no brainer because of cap-and-trade and tax credits. In South Dakota, or somewhere like that, it might not pay.


They do that here too, albeit, the rates are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay lower though. For the first 500kwh it's $0.028 per kwh. they tack on a few other charges, so it's a bit more expensive than that, but yea, looks way cheaper than CA.

In Texas, panels are basically a no brainer. However, it's just because we get so much damn sun.

Issue is, I'm also working on a bathroom remodel.
#15152279
late wrote:Because when you need national policy, you need national policy.

Individual actions would be lucky to shift emissions 1%. We need to cut them in half.

Frankly, that's an old and particularly idiotic idiocy.


Well, it would seem CA's policies would help to do that by providing incentives to switch away from carbon. @blackjack21 switching to solar is an example of that.
#15152280
wat0n wrote:
Well, it would seem CA's policies would help to do that by providing incentives to switch away from carbon. @blackjack21 switching to solar is an example of that.



The reality you guys always run away from is that if we are going to lower emissions, we need a Carbon Tax. Since this is a big deal, we'd need to phase it in slowly, say 25 cents/yr equivalent.
#15152283
@blackjack21
I have 30 panels on my roof with microinverters as well. How many panels do you guys have?


You know I never got up there and counted. I am a huge fan though. It really is a no brainer. Very happy with mine and my local utility sucks.

I also am on my third hybrid vehicle. 2 Prius' and now a new Venza. I am getting about 41 MPG on the SUV and got right at 50 with the Prius'. There is some bullshit about the batteries and pollution from making and disposing of them but it is not really serious. People riding in the Hybrids can't even tell they are in one. The integration is just so seamless. Got rid of the Porsche and I miss it but this hybrid is pretty good technology too.
#15152286
Rancid wrote::)
Looking at doing a metal roof.


If you do it properly, the rain water is potable and can be collected for use.

——————-

On the more general topic:

While individual actions for households are not a bad thing, industry and whole power grids need to be moved off fossil fuels, if we want to avoid the worst problems of anthropogenic climate change.

Pouring more public money into fossil fuel projects that even private investors are walking away from is not a good way to spend money.
#15152291
late wrote:Because when you need national policy, you need national policy.

Tautology. It is what it is. Solar, while a national policy, only makes sense in places with lots of sun. I'm in California and Rancid is in Texas. It makes sense for us. A country like Germany has big investments in solar, but it's kind of stupid because the Southern most part of Germany is about the same latitude as the Northern most part of Maine where jimjam lives. The winter weather is reasonably temperate because of the Gulf Stream; otherwise, their winters would be more like Saskatchewan. Obviously, solar irradiance there is lower than in the lower 48.

late wrote:Individual actions would be lucky to shift emissions 1%. We need to cut them in half.

Solar is mandatory on new homes in California now. The move from coal to natgas has already reduced carbon emission substantially. The only thing that can scale that well right now is nuclear, and the leftists don't like it.

late wrote:The reality you guys always run away from is that if we are going to lower emissions, we need a Carbon Tax. Since this is a big deal, we'd need to phase it in slowly, say 25 cents/yr equivalent.

That's part of the problem with the United States and the law being applied equally everywhere. You can go solar in California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas. If you get further South, you get more solar irradiance, but you also get more albedo affect from cloud cover. If you go further North, you get lower solar irradiance, and sometimes albedo affect from cloud cover.

Putting tax credits in place and letting market economics work it out will show you where it's economical. A booger eating math genius and a crackerjack on a spreadsheet with Aspergers in his mom's basement can probably figure this out better than some stuffed senator. However, a carbon tax becomes very unfair to people who cannot economically take advantage of solar. It ends up being a tax on the poor. Ultimately, that's what it is in California, which is a shame. To me, solar is tax avoidance.

Drlee wrote:Very happy with mine and my local utility sucks.

Can't be worse than PG&E with exploding gas pipelines taking out entire residential blocks, the Paradise fire, and rolling blackouts. I would get a powerwall too, but since almost everybody in my area has solar panels, they never target my neighborhood for rolling blackouts, or they'd just lose power.

Drlee wrote:Got rid of the Porsche and I miss it but this hybrid is pretty good technology too.

Still got my 2006 BMW, and from working at home so long I've only passed 100k miles in the last few weeks. Still runs well. Had to replace a water pump. Biggest complaint is the I still have the space-age for 2006 Bluetooth 1.0 version, when phones are now at 5.x. It's my fourth car--I run 'em into the ground; although, I did donate one to charity at one point.

Clarkson had a pretty funny bit on Top Gear on the McLaren P1 hybrid. It's all good, but he explains the McLaren P1 as like weaponizing a wind farm or buying the Rainbow Warrior and turning into an oil tanker, beginning at about 5:43 minutes in:

#15152294
This almost certainly marks the end of Jason Kenney’s term as Alberta premier. His whole budget was bet on the premise that this project would go through and allow Alberta to sell oilsands fuel abroad. Right now, the lack of pipeline makes Alberta oil a limited market. And there is no demand within that market.

The market has picked up since the beginning of Covid, but that is not surprising since oil prices were negative at the time. I think it is at 26$ a barrel. For his budget to work, he needed 58$ a barrel.

Our economy is now completely in the toilet because diversifying the economy is a threat to his oil buddies.
#15152296
Pants-of-dog wrote:
This almost certainly marks the end of Jason Kenney’s term as Alberta premier. His whole budget was bet on the premise that this project would go through and allow Alberta to sell oilsands fuel abroad. Right now, the lack of pipeline makes Alberta oil a limited market. And there is no demand within that market.

The market has picked up since the beginning of Covid, but that is not surprising since oil prices were negative at the time. I think it is at 26$ a barrel. For his budget to work, he needed 58$ a barrel.

Our economy is now completely in the toilet because diversifying the economy is a threat to his oil buddies.



That crude trades at $10 off the price of the good stuff. So the price of crude has to hit roughly $68 for it to sell. I don't think that will happen anytime soon.
#15152300
blackjack21 wrote:I have 30 panels on my roof with microinverters as well. How many panels do you guys have?

I suspect in the not so distant future the left will say you are privileged because of your solar panels. Another symbol of inequality! 8) 8)
#15152301
Nice to see people on here doing what they can to save our planet.
How do you really feel about this?
The same week that you bought an electric car or solar panels...China put a new coal fired power plant on line.
#15152302
@Scamp China is also shutting DOWN obsolete and more polluting coal-fired plants.

As China goes green, should the world celebrate its model?

In a short span of ten years, the international discourse around China’s environmental record has shifted dramatically. From the environmental “bad boy” that “wrecked” the Copenhagen climate talks in 2009, the country’s image in the environmental field has undergone a makeover. Its upholding of the Paris Agreement after the US withdrawal is celebrated as an act of global leadership. And its domestic environmental efforts, including the successful control, in a matter of years, of devastating urban air pollution, have been hailed as examples of effective state intervention into environmental crises.
https://chinadialogue.net/en/cities/as- ... its-model/

Whataboutisms aren't an argument, either. They are called Logical Fallacies.


What are you doing, @Scamp, to help?
#15152304
@blackjack21
Still got my 2006 BMW, and from working at home so long I've only passed 100k miles in the last few weeks. Still runs well. Had to replace a water pump. Biggest complaint is the I still have the space-age for 2006 Bluetooth 1.0 version, when phones are now at 5.x. It's my fourth car--I run 'em into the ground; although, I did donate one to charity at one point.


My brother has a 2006 BMW 3 series convertible. I have driven it. Great car and fast. He has had it for a long time and, like you, doesn't need a newer one. It is probably the perfect car for SF. When I lived there I initially had a large car and it was no fun. Sold it and got an old Carmen Giha. People laughed at me but I could park it and it was fun to drive.

Clarkson had a pretty funny bit on Top Gear on the McLaren P1 hybrid. It's all good, but he explains the McLaren P1 as like weaponizing a wind farm or buying the Rainbow Warrior and turning into an oil tanker, beginning at about 5:43 minutes in:


Love the video. I miss Top Gear and the team. Who doesn't want a car, as he says, that will "rip a hole through time".
#15152315
blackjack21 wrote:
1) Solar is mandatory on new homes in California now. The move from coal to natgas has already reduced carbon emission substantially.

2) The only thing that can scale that well right now is nuclear, and the leftists don't like it.



3) Putting tax credits in place and letting market economics work it out will show you where it's economical.

4) However, a carbon tax becomes very unfair to people who cannot economically take advantage of solar. It ends up being a tax on the poor.




1) Thanks for proving my point. If you all lived in a teepee and genetically modified yourselves to eat sunshine like plants, the majority of carbon emissions would continue...

2) I think nuclear will be an important part of the transition. But that will require a Progressive era.

3) You would need some number of hundreds of programs to do part of what a Carbon Tax would accomplish. Btw, the Carbon Tax would use market forces. Tax credits, not so much.

4) To get a Carbon Tax passed, you're gonna need rebates. They will also need to be means tested, so that a poor person gets significantly more back then he paid in... The idea I like would be a rebate to every adult making roughly the median income. You'd want to get higher, but that gives you the idea. So a person riding a bicycle or taking a bus would have extremely low transportation costs, and a nice rebate check as well. That's win, win, win. The poor get more money, you get more people using efficient transport, and a reduction in emissions.
#15152337
@XogGyux
Keystone XL will transport tar sands oil from Alberta. This is the dirtiest fuel source possible and requires huge environmental damage to extract since it's basically mined and extracted from the earth rather than drilled from a well.

Environmentalists abandoned achieving coherent long term policy from DC long ago. The fact that 30 environmentalists had to be arrested in front of the White House before Obama would take a stance on XL shows how little he and Biden value the environment. In addition trade deals prevent gov'ts from discriminating by providing subsidies to local companies for local projects. China has repeatedly objected at the WTO in order to protect its solar manufacturers. Bush killed the electric car when California mandated that 1% of vehicle fleets be electric within the state.

@blackjack21
We can electrify our road networks by installing canter levers above them. Buses in various cities have run on electricity for years and the UK has proposed installing them along motorways and trunk roads.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... says-study

Hydrogen is another option. It can be manufactured by using renewables when supply exceeds demand and then converted back into electricity to power a train or truck.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ered-train

late wrote:The reality you guys always run away from is that if we are going to lower emissions, we need a Carbon Tax. Since this is a big deal, we'd need to phase it in slowly, say 25 cents/yr equivalent.

A carbon tax would have been great 30 years ago but is massively inadequate now and would be unfair since it taxes consumption by poor people. A frequent flyer tax would have a big impact and affect less than 10% of the population.

We need gov'ts to phase out fossil fuels, add nuclear for baseload power, add renewables and storage, require carbon sequestration and storage on fossil fuel plants and electrify our heating and transportation sectors. Meanwhile financial institutions should divest from fossil fuels and other excessively damaging industries.


Rancid wrote:Looking at doing a metal roof.

I hope it's well insulated. Sheet metal is a popular building material in poor countries and is notorious for being incredibly hot it the sun and incredibly loud in the rain.
#15152375
AFAIK wrote:

A carbon tax would have been great 30 years ago but is massively inadequate now and would be unfair since it taxes consumption by poor people. A frequent flyer tax would have a big impact and affect less than 10% of the population.

We need gov'ts to phase out fossil fuels, add nuclear for baseload power, add renewables and storage, require carbon sequestration and storage on fossil fuel plants and electrify our heating and transportation sectors. Meanwhile financial institutions should divest from fossil fuels and other excessively damaging industries.





You still need a way to get there.

The first step is a Carbon Tax, anything else is going to be a facade.
#15152398
Just a thought. Rather than heavily subsidizing roads, how about subsidizing working from home.
#15152418
Drlee wrote:
Just a thought. Rather than heavily subsidizing roads, how about subsidizing working from home.



The underlying reality is that suburbs require growth. It's a lot like a Ponzi scheme in that meeting current costs always requires new revenue. Which is fine, until the economy hits a bump.

One of the reasons we have so many crazies is that the country has been avoiding a number of unpleasant realities for a very long time. It gets to be a habit.

Which is to say I agree with your point, but pulling it off may get a bit more involved than you anticipated.

#15152424
Drlee wrote:Just a thought. Rather than heavily subsidizing roads, how about subsidizing working from home.


I don't even think it's necessary at this point, the pandemic has shown businesses a taste of how things would work if there was a major move in that direction and I'm fairly certain many will move in that direction if only to save on some benefits and office space.

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