[Ganeshas Rat]

I'm American and I have no problem with you.

My comment is not against Americans. However I personally saw people who were defending the point of view that atomic bombing was actually useful for Japan. Japanese should be grateful for this, it saved lives of millions of Japanese who would otherwise die in the invasion of Honshu. It maybe even has some point (in the same sense the Holocaust was useful to Jews and they should be eternally grateful to Hitler; after all it was what made Israel possible).

[Crantag]

My comment is not against Americans. However I personally saw people who were defending the point of view that atomic bombing was actually useful for Japan. Japanese should be grateful for this, it saved lives of millions of Japanese who would otherwise die in the invasion of Honshu. It maybe even has some point (in the same sense the Holocaust was useful to Jews and they should be eternally grateful to Hitler; after all it was what made Israel possible).

It is likely true actually that more Japanese would have been killed by an invasion, but they probably would have preferred to stand and die at their stations. Politics is depressing, dude. I think it was from a military tactics standpoint defensible, but that is a bad reflection on humanity, but we all know this shit. But I am interested if you disagree.

[ThirdTerm]

More than 12,000 U.S. soldiers, sailors and Marines died during the fighting in the waters around Okinawa, the small southernmost island of Japan, which was why Americans abhorred the very idea to invade Honshu. Probably more than 100,000 U.S. soldiers would have died in vain, if they had invaded mainland Japan. After the defeat of Nazi Germany, there was no political will to continue the hard fight. It was about saving their own lives rather than Japanese ones.

[Crantag]

Total defeat of the Axis powers was a necessity. Another "Dolchstoßlegende" had to be prevented.

But the Russians were allies. And the war would have been lost, if not for their defeat of Germany. But, hind site being 20/20. we know that the lack of bombing with the nukes likely would have led to a divided Japan.

I was mostly pointing out your contradiction though, that the Russians were in fact allies. But they became enemies quickly as soon as the smoke cleared.

[Crantag]

More than 12,000 U.S. soldiers, sailors and Marines died during the fighting in the waters around Okinawa, the small southernmost island of Japan, which was why Americans abhorred the very idea to invade Honshu. Probably more than 100,000 U.S. soldiers would have died in vain, if they had invaded mainland Japan. After the defeat of Nazi Germany, there was no political will to continue the hard fight. It was about saving their own lives rather than Japanese ones.

I'm not disagreeing, in fact, I agree. They would have needed to get through Kyushu first, and that would have been a hard struggle.

But, the Russians also broke the neutrality pact with Japan the day after the US atomic bombing of Hiroshima, and Japan is still trying to get back the Northern Islands that the Soviets seized (see Northern Territories Dispute). I am not saying it was right, but if the bombs hadn't fell, there is a decent chance Tokyo would have fell to the Russians. And maybe that would have been fine, and I am again not seeking to advance a moral judgement here, but that seems, to me, to have been the scenario at play.

[Rugoz]

But the Russians were allies. And the war would have been lost, if not for their defeat of Germany. But, hind site being 20/20. we know that the lack of bombing with the nukes likely would have led to a divided Japan.

I was mostly pointing out your contradiction though, that the Russians were in fact allies. But they became enemies quickly as soon as the smoke cleared.

I was suggesting that what applied to Germany also applied to Japan to some extent. I think anything but an unconditional surrender of Nazi Germany was unthinkable. But was Japan really so different?

[Crantag]

Okay, I won't sugar coat. I've obviously thought about this issue, and I seem to think the US was right. But, it was indeed terrible. That seems to be where I stand.

And go read about Sadako Sasaki. Go read about a lot of the other victims. A lot of them were junior high school students, who were working in the city, because all the men were off at combat.

It was terrible, I won't say it was necessary, other events or conclusions could have occurred, but I may be wrong in this, yet I find it to have been understandable, from a tactics standpoint.

[Crantag]

I was suggesting that what applied to Germany also applied to Japan to some extent. I think anything but an unconditional surrender of Nazi Germany was unthinkable. But was Japan really so different?

I don't want to sound like I'm repeating myself, the prior division of Germany was maybe part of why the American military planners acted as they did. Japan declared war on the US, and if they had the nukes and the air superiority, I have no doubt they would have acted. But, I don't believe in revenge and shit like that. But, Hiroshima's atomic bombing was the first shot of the Cold War.

[Crantag]

Japan would have nuked the living shit out of the US if they'd had the opportunity, but they would have nuked Australia first. That makes the bombings feel less regrettable.

[Rugoz]

I don't want to sound like I'm repeating myself, the prior division of Germany was maybe part of why the American military planners acted as they did. Japan declared war on the US, and if they had the nukes and the air superiority, I have no doubt they would have acted. But, I don't believe in revenge and shit like that. But, Hiroshima's atomic bombing was the first shot of the Cold War.

Sure, but I don't think the demand for unconditional surrender was necessarily a pretense to be able to demonstrate the bomb to the Russians.

Besides, the US was just continuing what it previously did with conventional (fire-)bombings. It was all about forcing Japan to surrender while minimizing the loss of American lives.

[Crantag]

Sure, but I don't think the demand for unconditional surrender was necessarily a pretense to be able to demonstrate the bomb to the Russians.

Besides, the US was just continuing what it previously did with conventional (fire-)bombings. It was all about forcing Japan to surrender while minimizing the loss of American lives.

My disagreement is in that, I think it was done to stop the Russians, and to prevent a divided Japan, ala Korea and Germany. I know my take here isn't really mainstream history, but it does exist in the fine cracks of mainstream history, and it is what I find convincing. The USSR declared war on Japan the day after the Hiroshima bombing. They made gains in Manchuria and the Northern Territories, and Korea, while Japan was in crisis. A couple days later, another bomb fell, on a city called Nagasaki.

I do think the atomic bombing was a political maneuver toward the soviets. But, I also do think all the other shit I've said in here.

[Atlantis]

I was mostly pointing out your contradiction though, that the Russians were in fact allies. But they became enemies quickly as soon as the smoke cleared.

No, the Russians didn't "become enemies quickly;" the Anglo-Americans have been the enemies of Russia for centuries. They only allied temporarily to defeat Nazi Germany. In fact, the Anglo-Americans started to betray their Russian allies even before Germany was defeated.

In the US, the Russian bogey man has been painted in the colors of communism. That's why Americans even today have an obsession with communism, while nobody else gives damn, but the rivalry dates back to the British empire, which has been continued by the US.

[Crantag]

I'm from Oregon. I was once teaching English to a 78 year old Japanese guy, in his house. He told me a story of how when he was in school, he helped build the parachute bombs which were sent over the Pacific Ocean. It so happens that those landed in Oregon, and killed a teacher and her students. Hah, it felt like a coincidence. He said I'm sorry. I said, don't apologize to me, it's cool.

[Crantag]

No, the Russians didn't "become enemies quickly;" the Anglo-Americans have been the enemies of Russia for centuries. They only allied temporarily to defeat Nazi Germany. In fact, the Anglo-Americans started to betray their Russian allies even before Germany was defeated.

In the US, the Russian bogey man has been painted in the colors of communism. That's why Americans even today have an obsession with communism, while nobody else gives damn, but the rivalry dates back to the British empire, which has been continued by the US.

Preach on, brother.

[Igor Antunov]

This is an interesting post, with a healthy dose of cynicism. You are intelligent and informed.

I think calling Japan a meme country that doesn't really exist, is kinda bullshit though. Japan is culturally rather unique, their pension for innovating and perfecting stuff, is sorta top notch, and there are a lot of things that only really exist in Japan. Bonzai trees and sumo wrestling, for example, and sushi, for examples. These are things which are heavily refined artifacts of genius simplicity, which only the Japanese really have. The Japanese have sort of maintained the old style of East Asian innovative culture. But, this isn't intended as a disagreement as much as a more optimistic take.

Japan has a great indigenous militaristic tradition borne of centuries of island tribalism. That's its most unique aspect - albeit heavily romanticized in the west. But in the end much of its culture is derived from mainland Asia then tweaked-cuisine, traditional clothing, ways of doing business, social customs and familial piety, writing system, architecture, etc. Its 70's and 80's innovation is a symptom of industrialization and its east asian collectivism - something most asian tiger economies experienced, and today China as well. Turns out a strict social order backed by state regulation lends itself well to rapid technological development post industrialization. Well at least until as in Japans case the US comes along and orders you to destroy your most elaborate high technology supply chains. Semiconductor industry being most noteworthy of all. Plaza Accord being the start of a Us led campaign to reign in these puppet economies from getting too successful. It didn't stop Germany but it did slow it down. Japan was absolutely annihilated. To this day its electronics and auto industry innovation has not recovered. It lost the lead in phones, cars, chip making, consumer electronics, mass transportation etc. Only robotics survived unscathed.

[Agent Steel]

Japan is a meme country. It doesn't really exist, it's an industrialization experiment turned puppet that was never let go. It will become Japan again when the US bites the dust, hopefully without the shinto militarism given the reality of its place in the world (no resources, heavily dependent on mainland asia for economy to function.). Just as it has been for millenia. The 1800's where an aberration, brought about due to a power vaccum in east asia after the qing tribalists stagnated the middle kingdom with their primitivism, and by extension the sinosphere. Well China is back, and so is the sinosphere. Japan is a natural component of that. It ain't no western country and it has no long term future outside of The Chinese world.

Do you mind if I share this as a post on my FB page? It's a really interesting comment and I'm curious how people will respond.

[Igor Antunov]

Go ahead I don't really care. I'm not 100% convinced of my own words as the comment feels incomplete, could have been articulated better. Comes across as condescending to Japanese people. That wasn't the point. Also I'd replace Chinese world with Sinosphere. Of course the fact the country calls itself the middle kingdom and we happen to be conflating country with kingdom sort of complicates this. I guess sinosphere is the politically correct term in this century. Japan has had an influence on China over the centuries, as has Korea and others. It's not a one way street. But there is a focal point and that's mainland east Asia particularly the Southern and Central plains.

Also Meme country could have been elaborated upon. By that I mean its post-ww2 cultural achievements and identity on the world stage have been exported, amplified and popularized by Americans to the broader world, especially weebos. So it's not an independent/nativist image of the country. It's an American/Western romanticized take on a country that in reality has more similarities with other east Asian societies than any western country. As a westerner you may even experience more culture shock in Japan or Taiwan than in Mainland China, simply because these societies have maintained the old sinocentric traditions more strictly. The Chinese communists are as liberal as an Asian society could feasibly get without breaking down. Their stance on women for example is far more 'progressive' than that of Japan's elite.

I know Americans tend to conflate liberal economics with social liberalism/western style representative democracy. But that's of course misleading and as China (and Singapore) have proven, utterly flawed. No- you don't need to be politically western to be engaged in hyper capitalist market economics on a global scale, working side by side with American corporations no less..

[Crantag]

I did feel more cultural shock in Japan than in China. Chinese people seem normal, Japanese people often times feel like they are in a different kinda world. Sorry I am not trying to say the wrong thing either, but I did feel less culture shock in China. But, for a while I worked in a shopping mall in China, at an English school inside the mall, and Chinese people will do things like take a shit in the bathroom and wipe their ass and throw the toilet paper in the trash instead of the toilet, and then take their granddaughter outside, and carry her while she takes a piss on the sidewalk outside the mall. But I'm not much better, so fuck it.

[Crantag]

But in China, you can generally get away with smoking cigarettes (or weed even) in any bathroom, and I was more mad that my smoke breaks in the bathroom were interrupted by having a waste basket full of shitty toilet paper next to me, hah. But that isn't even meant as a front on China, it's a cool place, and you probably wouldn't even notice this kind of 'shit' if you were traveling through, or not using mall bathrooms as a personal smoking room.

[Igor Antunov]

Every time I've had smokers sit next to me at a restaurant in the big Chinese cities I've complained to the management. They then simply step outside to smoke or leave. Some external influence is positive. Well, tobacco is an external import, it should be done away with. Undo the damage caused. Funnily enough alcoholism is not rampant among asias youth. Only the old fellas.

I want to spend more time in Japan, but I'd hate to be traveling during the covid frenzy. It's just an overblown meme at this point. The virus is less harmful to me than the flu. No way am I getting a fast tracked mRNA vaccine for shits and giggles. Russian or Chinese inactivated virus all the way. Australia needs to approve them all then allow us to choose. Germany is doing it right.