I Reject, I Affirm. ''Raising the Black Flag'' in an Age of Devilry. - Page 42 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15157823
I agree.

And you know already how they will frame it:

If you don't submit to having chips insdie of you, y ou will be hurting your health and denying yourself medical treatment because the monitoring aspect.

If you don't agree to let children transhumanize, you're damning them to being handicapped because they want you to mutilate and mechanize children.

It will get to the point where people with natural mental deficincies will be forcibly merged with machines to enhance them, and I have no doubt that they will then have machine-human hybrids do challenges against transhumanist detractors, and they'll boast of transhumanized children being intellectually & physically the superiors of the smartest and greatest specimens of the anti-transhumanist community...

And they won't let you use the AI in your smartphone when you play chess against a transhuman... even though that is basically exactly what the transhuman is doing.
#15157825
Verv wrote:I agree.

And you know already how they will frame it:

If you don't submit to having chips insdie of you, y ou will be hurting your health and denying yourself medical treatment because the monitoring aspect.

If you don't agree to let children transhumanize, you're damning them to being handicapped because they want you to mutilate and mechanize children.

It will get to the point where people with natural mental deficincies will be forcibly merged with machines to enhance them, and I have no doubt that they will then have machine-human hybrids do challenges against transhumanist detractors, and they'll boast of transhumanized children being intellectually & physically the superiors of the smartest and greatest specimens of the anti-transhumanist community...

And they won't let you use the AI in your smartphone when you play chess against a transhuman... even though that is basically exactly what the transhuman is doing.


@Verv , this is Antichrist.

''Lo do I see here the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Saint Daniel the Prophet...''


As it says in the Book of the Apocalypse of St. John the Theologian...

…One of the heads of the beast appeared to be mortally wounded. But the mortal wound was healed, and the whole world marveled and followed the beast.They worshiped the dragon who had given authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, [b]“Who is like the beast, and who can wage war against it?” The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months.…[/b]



And in the Gospel of Saint Matthew we know that the situation for mankind, for whatever reason, will threaten to be extinction level event;

…For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short. At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is!’ do not believe it.…


And those of good will? Will they have retreated into the Wilderness, relatively untouched by Civilization, by Babylon, and thus like the Israelites in Goshen in Egypt, untouched by the plagues of God's wrath?
#15157831
This ties in back well to raising the black flag.

I want us conservative reactionary types to remember something... We do have soem important allies in conservatism, who love big business and worship the 'advancements' of Capitalism. Some will definitely come with us, but some of these will be forever worshiping tech, and telling you how yuo should transhumanize -- God would want you to transhumanize.

But our great allies in the future, many of them will come from the fringe left!

The vegans, the earth-firsters, the anti-Capitalists, the tech skeptics & green energy nuts... They have much to teach us, and we can share a lot of brotherhood with them. Of course, I want them all to come to Christ, but even if they do not, I will share as much community with them as I can. We will depend on each other in the next era of resistance.

So, consider this: during Lent, go to your crazy hippie vegan shop and stock up on vegan supplies, see if there's anyone who wants to chat about tech, alienation, the human soul...

Just take it in and make some connections whenever, wherever. Maybe it's not for you to make these connections, but remind the younger Christians that these people may be crucial for them someday.

Who knows when it will come... But your best friend when Anti-Christ come may throw their lot in with the wrong side, and you might see that 80% of the people you thought were kooky Communists all are falling on the right side of the aisle. You really never know.
#15158128
Verv wrote:This ties in back well to raising the black flag.

I want us conservative reactionary types to remember something... We do have soem important allies in conservatism, who love big business and worship the 'advancements' of Capitalism. Some will definitely come with us, but some of these will be forever worshiping tech, and telling you how yuo should transhumanize -- God would want you to transhumanize.

But our great allies in the future, many of them will come from the fringe left!

The vegans, the earth-firsters, the anti-Capitalists, the tech skeptics & green energy nuts... They have much to teach us, and we can share a lot of brotherhood with them. Of course, I want them all to come to Christ, but even if they do not, I will share as much community with them as I can. We will depend on each other in the next era of resistance.

So, consider this: during Lent, go to your crazy hippie vegan shop and stock up on vegan supplies, see if there's anyone who wants to chat about tech, alienation, the human soul...

Just take it in and make some connections whenever, wherever. Maybe it's not for you to make these connections, but remind the younger Christians that these people may be crucial for them someday.

Who knows when it will come... But your best friend when Anti-Christ come may throw their lot in with the wrong side, and you might see that 80% of the people you thought were kooky Communists all are falling on the right side of the aisle. You really never know.


@Verv ;

Excellent post my friend!

(by the way, it's probable that with Bright Week and then Great Lent coming up, I traditionally tend not to post during this time. It does however give me time to think which will no doubt improve my posting when I do return to write and interact with my friends here)

Some time back, I quoted Our Lord from the Gospel;

Someone in the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.” But Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed Me judge or executor between you?” And He said to them, “Watch out! Guard yourselves against every form of greed, for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”


And from this and other indications, I infer that to God our common political and socio-economic arrangements in this fallen world are a thing of men, provisional and incomplete. But, that also His warning can have a collective application as well.

I have no doubt that ahead of us all are many surprises. And a few certainties, mainly concerning the danger to humanity from our own technological hubris.
#15158129
I have also considered not posting anything during Lent -- often this means a ban, though, just on Facebook / social media.

I will contemplate what I will do.

You have a good policy. This stuff can really be a distraction.

I have no doubt that ahead of us all are many surprises. And a few certainties, mainly concerning the danger to humanity from our own technological hubris


This is the true big picture threat and the crazy politics of the West may actually be so problematic only because they will be pivotal in enabling technotyranny & transhumanism.
#15158133
@Verv ;

I have also considered not posting anything during Lent -- often this means a ban, though, just on Facebook / social media.

I will contemplate what I will do.

You have a good policy. This stuff can really be a distraction.


It can be a distraction, but in all humility I do gain a great deal personally from reading and interacting with others on PoFo and elsewhere, so I'll see this time.


This is the true big picture threat and the crazy politics of the West may actually be so problematic only because they will be pivotal in enabling technotyranny & transhumanism.


It's the only culture by which technotyranny and transhumanism is actively encouraged in my opinion, from the very start. In this I can't be helped but to be reminded by the story of Albertus Magnus and his student Thomas Aquinas who built a ''thinking mechanical head'' but decided to destroy it...
#15158437
Well my friends, I'll be taking my break from the internet after this weekend, and will return to it after Orthodox (Julian Calendar) Pascha.

You're all in my prayers.
#15158582
@Verv , @Potemkin , @Political Interest , and others of my friends;

Today, upon contemplation of President Biden's bombing of Syria, I noticed that it's become something of a tradition to offer military style sacrifices (fatalities involved or otherwise) of a very martial but theatrical nature to the god Mars, for new US Administration, around the month dedicated to Mars in the West, March.

Consider the missile attack on Syria by the incoming Trump Administration which happened on April 6th, 2017 which was March 24th in the original (and Roman) Julian Calendar . Biden ordered his attack though on February 25th, 2021 which is close but not quite into March, but his eagerness to do pretty much everything his predecessor had done, (albeit with complicit liberal/media support this time unlike Trump's situation) in the service of the god of war is understandable if not a belief shared by someone like myself.

And unlike Trump with his first missile attack, Biden actually got in some kills yesterday against those Monotheist sectarians, although Trump made up for it with his body count later. Biden however will likely have much the same obedient and fawning media as Barack Obama did when Obama was busy ordering drone strikes, so I'm pretty sure his numbers will exceed greatly even the large numbers Trump had in his Martian human sacrifices.

I notice these things and perhaps it makes me seem foolish to make these connections. After all, America isn't an intentionally Pagan nation from it's very inception, is it?

#15159600
@Verv , @Potemkin , and my good friend @Political Interest , these lines from Shakespeare's ''the Tempest'' are one of the things I'm going to expand upon and wish to discuss when I return to posting after Pascha, the speakers being Prospero and Caliban;


Pros. Thou most lying slave,
Whom stripes may move, not kindness! I have us’d thee,
Filth as thou art, with human care, and lodg’d thee
In mine own cell, till thou didst seek to violate
The honour of my child.

Cal. O ho, O ho! would ‘t had been done!
Thou didst prevent me; I had peopl’d else
This isle with Calibans.

Pros. Abhorred slave,
Which any print of goodness wilt not take,
Being capable of all ill! I pitied thee,
Took pains to make thee speak, taught thee each hour
One thing or other. When thou didst not, savage,
Know thy own meaning, but wouldst gabble like
A thing most brutish, I endow’d thy purposes
With words that made them known. But thy vile race,
Though thou didst learn, had that in’t which good natures
Could not abide to be with; therefore wast thou
Deservedly confin’d into this rock,
Who hadst deserv’d more than a prison.


And the context in which I shall write of it is the problem and eschatological dimensions of today's Western civilization. Recall too, my writing of ''Barbarism'' and ''Civilization''.
#15160701
@Verv , @Potemkin , and @Political Interest , among others;

I've decided to continue a bit before Lent proper at least in postings. And so as promised, I want to break this down and relate it to Modernity today, even though it comes from Shakespeare and his ''The Tempest''. The Noble former ruler of Milan and Sorceror Prospero says to Caliban his unruly and rebellious slave;

Pros. Thou most lying slave,
Whom stripes may move, not kindness! I have us’d thee,
Filth as thou art, with human care, and lodg’d thee
In mine own cell, till thou didst seek to violate
The honour of my child.


Caliban being in Prospero's eyes a sub-human form of life (son of the witch on the island upon which he was shipwrecked), Prospero was pleased to ''elevate'' Caliban to the level of a useful servant, and indeed provisionally a fellow human being. That is until Caliban plotted to get with Prospero's daughter in an all-too-human manner...

Cal. O ho, O ho! would ‘t had been done!
Thou didst prevent me; I had peopl’d else
This isle with Calibans.


Sensibly if not morally designing thus to continue his own line and form a family on this almost deserted isle, knowing Propero would consider Caliban a most unworthy suitor.

Pros. Abhorred slave,
Which any print of goodness wilt not take,
Being capable of all ill! I pitied thee,
Took pains to make thee speak, taught thee each hour
One thing or other. When thou didst not, savage,
Know thy own meaning, but wouldst gabble like
A thing most brutish, I endow’d thy purposes
With words that made them known.


Again, Prospero reminds Caliban that he believes that he made Caliban human, essentially.


But thy vile race,
Though thou didst learn, had that in’t which good natures
Could not abide to be with; therefore wast thou
Deservedly confin’d into this rock,
Who hadst deserv’d more than a prison.


But Prospero at this point, angry and fearful, believes Caliban to be beyond redemption and undeserving of all the benefits which he has given him out of his essential goodness.

Discuss.
#15161186
Verv wrote:Sadly, Annater, I have not read this particular work of Shakespeare.

I definitely will do so now, though, as you have seen such worth in it.

I would hesitate to comment until I've read the whole thing.


@Verv ;

No problem. I would also recommend for context (particularly in understanding where I'm going with some of this, not so much my worldview as some worldviews I contend against) the work of Francis Yates, who specialized in this era and it's magical/hermetic/rosicrucian occult foundational aspects;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Yates

Perhaps Eric Voegelin or Thomas Molnar as well. That is, that there is a hidden substrate of esoteric pagan thinking which surfaced in the West during the early ''Modern Age'', and which is the dark magical (or rather counter-magical, with a nod to C.S. Lewis and his ''Higher Magic'') foundation of the present world order. Useful too for this particular play and understanding the figure of ''Caliban'' might be Isaac de la Peyrere, who like Spinoza revealed a bit too much for some persons;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_La_Peyr%C3%A8re

It was a most interesting time, as @Potemkin could easily confirm;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_School_of_Night

I had initially planned for this Great Lent to forgo the internet altogether as I regularly do, but this year I am thinking that I'll not do so this time. Not that what I say or write is all that important, but that the links I have with other people outside of my family these days are tenuous enough as it is, that I need some communication to remain humble and grounded.
#15161601
annatar1914 wrote:Indeed. I'm reminded of what Scripture says about physicians and medical science, like in Sirach 38:1-8


Thank you for sharing this. It is very important.

annatar1914 wrote:It relates in my opinion to the crisis of capitalist overproduction and profit seeking. Capitalists cut wages and so workers cannot buy products there is no demand for, so Capitalists cut back and lay people off, further aggravating the situation.


Hence why we need state socialism and why we should not view there to be a contradiction between conservatism and socialism.

annatar1914 wrote:Yes, we're going to have to be realistic in our expectations in a way that few Moderns would understand. This probably involves a kind of waiting game, patiently in expectation of social collective spiritual regeneration.


If the very extreme faction of Islamists ever did threaten the West in a truly apparent existential way it is highly unlikely the West would restore its inner and spiritual qualities in time for their arrival. Most Westerners would probably be in complete denial that it is evening happening, much in the same way a lot of them have denied the existence of COVID-19. In other words we are completely unprepared to face threats of an existential nature. This could be said not only of extreme Islamists but also even possibly of the PRC, for example.

annatar1914 wrote:I'd say that it's true of civilization always and everywhere. With one caveat; balance can historically be restored, unless we are further along in the later days, in which case God Himself shall intervene.


Most people know there is a huge problem and that not all is right in the West at the moment. The problem is people can't identify why, they are at a loss as to what is going on. A lot of people don't want to engage in inrospection and a number are even scared of doing so. There is a great illness in Western civilisation today, we are in the middle of a civilisational crisis. The people are looking for answers, there is a tremendous awakening of thinking but no one really knows what to do. The solution would be a change in course and spiritual revival but yet very few people realise this for now.

annatar1914 wrote:At one time I don't think the two were originally equivalent. But I think Rome was conquered from within by Hellenism more completely than anything a Hellenistic conqueror could ever do to them after a military struggle.


Very interesting.

annatar1914 wrote:Well sir, you are modest too. I'm making a conscious effort to have consideration for my fellow man, and make a positive difference, but without surrendering my beliefs and principles.


Thank you, sir.

And what you say about considering fellow man and making a positive difference while not surrendering beliefs and principles is all anyone can do.

annatar1914 wrote:All the more because the System is not designed to promote leadership or accountability, or promote and reward hypothetical true leaders


It most certainly isn't. This is leading to further stagnation and problems. The lack of fresh ideas and a refusal to do what it is designed to do will cause tremendous problems down the line.

annatar1914 wrote:Hard to say, but I think some archetypes are not universally admired but promoted by our guardian angels to help us individually, to be more like the people we should emulate rather than the anti-value bearers pushed on us by the forces of darkness.


Very interesting, it's not merely an act of will that draws us to heroes but rather forces beyond our control. This all speaks to the mystery of life and of man's fate in the world.

annatar1914 wrote:It would be slavery, and I think that it should be fought against like all wickedness.


Slavery sold as freedom. We can be certain that the growing leftism would be used as a tool and exploited by corporatists of this type. The far left and far right are fueling each other, as in the past.

annatar1914 wrote:I've noted it as well. Polytheism is definitely the default setting for natural mankind, in my opinion.


Well especially within post-modernity there is this notion that non-monotheist belief systems are more amenable to personal freedom. There are people with a passing interest in Buddhism, and that's not a new trend. You've always had Westerners wanting an alternative to Christianity, but then they rarely adopt the Indian religions in their full orthodoxy, they often take on watered down versions. Little do a lot of these people know that the authentic expressions of these eastern confessions contain just as much dogma and stipulations upon their followers as Christianity or Islam.

annatar1914 wrote:It happens I think when naturally gifted men in spiritual life are not content with the rewards God gives them in this life and so they usurp glory that is of a worldly sort to content themselves with; ''winning the whole world but losing their soul''.


It's disastrous and terrifying to think that people can be spiritually inclined and yet not assume the good. It would probably be better to be a non-thinking normal post-modern than be among the uniquely evil.

annatar1914 wrote:This then is the Revolution in essence which Reaction fulminated against for quite some time. Examine it's preamble and 17 articles, and you will find few in the Western world who would disagree with anything written there.

But what does it actually say? It is a ''Bed of Procrustes'', is it not? Lafayette and Abbe Sieyes and Thomas Jefferson wrote a most interesting document, capable of fitting any form of government from Monarchy to Democratic Republic. Look carefully.

To reject anything and everything about it would appear to make any foe of it the enemy of all mankind, would it not?


Although most Westerners would agree with the fundamental principles laid out in this document the day to day functioning of Western democracies has taken its own course.

Liberty in the hands of people who know what they're doing is very good, but when it descends into intrigue and misrule by the misinformed, stupid and deliberately wicked it becomes dysfunctional.

While it is a good idea in theory it is cumbersome in practice. We also know very well the power of money can influence this political system very easily.

But because the people in the West have food and are for the most part generally comfortabe no one is bothered, they become essentially apolitical. However, this is slowly changing. The post war settlement that existed from 1945 to 2015 at its height is collapsing. The guarantee of stable incomes, housing and other essentials is slowly disappearing.

annatar1914 wrote:Even more curious then is that the Russian Revolution had reached a certain level and maintained it down to an era roughly from 1941 to 1991, whereas it appears that the Franco-American Western Revolution is still ongoing, attempting to upend as i've said, every aspect of human existence. I think part of the reason for this is the roiling chaos nature of Capitalism itself.


The Franco-American Western Revolution is still ongoing but near its end. It's now in its own stagnation period. We are essentially in what the Khruschev era was to the Soviet Union, and we will soon enter our equivalent of the Brezhnev era.

annatar1914 wrote:As you said, easily avoidable, but they will do it. Just because something can be done, does not mean that it should be. After Hubris comes Nemesis.


They will do it because a lot of them are unpardonably thick.

annatar1914 wrote:And from this and other indications, I infer that to God our common political and socio-economic arrangements in this fallen world are a thing of men, provisional and incomplete. But, that also His warning can have a collective application as well.

I have no doubt that ahead of us all are many surprises. And a few certainties, mainly concerning the danger to humanity from our own technological hubris.


They are the affairs of men and the world but that is not to say our politics cannot be informed by spiritual realities, in fact they should be. However, religion should not be used for politics but rather as a reference for fundamental truth.
#15161694
@Political Interest , thanks for your reply my friend. On my comment from Scripture about the special role of Physicians that is so timely today, you agreed, saying;

Thank you for sharing this. It is very important.


You also responded to my reiteration of the problems of modern Capitalism, to which you said something I really want to expand upon;


Hence why we need state socialism and why we should not view there to be a contradiction between conservatism and socialism.


I have noticed that many if not most people i've talked to outside the United States, and particularly from what we US Americans call the ''Old World'', have no problem making the statement you made here. I personally agree wholeheartedly with there being no ''contradiction between conservatism and socialism''. Would that make me a poor Marxist? Perhaps, but would it make me less in conformity with the reality of the situation? I have my doubts.

And are the errors of the Marxists central to their primary socio-economic claims themselves? The near-total Atheism of it's partisans (never clear to me anyway if that's truly the case, but certainly Anti-clerical/Anti-Theist) and the horrible crimes against Man and God committed?

On realistic expectations of a spiritual regeneration of the West, collectively speaking, you said;


If the very extreme faction of Islamists ever did threaten the West in a truly apparent existential way it is highly unlikely the West would restore its inner and spiritual qualities in time for their arrival. Most Westerners would probably be in complete denial that it is evening happening, much in the same way a lot of them have denied the existence of COVID-19. In other words we are completely unprepared to face threats of an existential nature. This could be said not only of extreme Islamists but also even possibly of the PRC, for example.


Or even maybe more fearful an outcome in my opinion, a false ''spiritual regeneration'' that succeeded in re-animating some of the West's original hubris and universal pretensions...

Which is why your next comment bothers me even as it also offers a glimmer of optimism;

Most people know there is a huge problem and that not all is right in the West at the moment. The problem is people can't identify why, they are at a loss as to what is going on. A lot of people don't want to engage in inrospection and a number are even scared of doing so. There is a great illness in Western civilisation today, we are in the middle of a civilisational crisis. The people are looking for answers, there is a tremendous awakening of thinking but no one really knows what to do. The solution would be a change in course and spiritual revival but yet very few people realise this for now.


Which is why it's dangerously easy to just fall back upon a more reactionary false solution to this existential crisis, and why wisdom is so sorely needed.


Very interesting.


Yes, I do happen to believe ever more strongly that ''Western Civilization'' began with the Greeks (and is thus really ''Hellenic Civilization''), and having conquered the conquering Romans, was submerged by Christianity from about 500 to 1500 AD. Only to be slowly reborn and ''blossom'' once more, increasingly more explicitly Anti-Christian and Anti-Monotheist than in the previous 20 centuries.


Thank you, sir.

And what you say about considering fellow man and making a positive difference while not surrendering beliefs and principles is all anyone can do.


Yes, even if it becomes harder, more intensely difficult to do, in my corner of the World.

On failures of leadership and clear vision, it's definite lack;


It most certainly isn't. This is leading to further stagnation and problems. The lack of fresh ideas and a refusal to do what it is designed to do will cause tremendous problems down the line.


A crisis, fortunately, often produces the people to deal with it, to solve problems. I think it's the Divine-Human Synergy at work.

As you say;

... it's not merely an act of will that draws us to heroes but rather forces beyond our control. This all speaks to the mystery of life and of man's fate in the world.


On the false ideologies being offered as options to modern man by the Elites;


Slavery sold as freedom. We can be certain that the growing leftism would be used as a tool and exploited by corporatists of this type. The far left and far right are fueling each other, as in the past.


I agree my friend. All the more reason to find sensible solutions that keep in mind the temporal common sense of the forefathers, the timeless eternal truths, and the future opportunities of a truly progressive worldview, interested in the common good.

When I mentioned my opinion on the polytheism being the ''default position'' of fallen natural mankind, you said;


Well especially within post-modernity there is this notion that non-monotheist belief systems are more amenable to personal freedom. There are people with a passing interest in Buddhism, and that's not a new trend. You've always had Westerners wanting an alternative to Christianity, but then they rarely adopt the Indian religions in their full orthodoxy, they often take on watered down versions. Little do a lot of these people know that the authentic expressions of these eastern confessions contain just as much dogma and stipulations upon their followers as Christianity or Islam.


Which would make a return to these traditions all the more deceptive in it's seduction, a right wing temptation which I've seen myself. Antichrist, I do not think will be a Western style liberal secularist.

Of the fall from grace of the spiritually proud;


It's disastrous and terrifying to think that people can be spiritually inclined and yet not assume the good. It would probably be better to be a non-thinking normal post-modern than be among the uniquely evil.


Indeed, it's one thing I try to ask God to help me be on guard against.

When I discussed the ''Declaration of the Rights of Man'', you replied;

Although most Westerners would agree with the fundamental principles laid out in this document the day to day functioning of Western democracies has taken its own course.

Liberty in the hands of people who know what they're doing is very good, but when it descends into intrigue and misrule by the misinformed, stupid and deliberately wicked it becomes dysfunctional.

While it is a good idea in theory it is cumbersome in practice. We also know very well the power of money can influence this political system very easily.

But because the people in the West have food and are for the most part generally comfortabe no one is bothered, they become essentially apolitical. However, this is slowly changing. The post war settlement that existed from 1945 to 2015 at its height is collapsing. The guarantee of stable incomes, housing and other essentials is slowly disappearing.


Yes, the experiment is over, only some refuse to accept that just yet. If they hate Trump, just imagine how appalled they will be in the not to distant future...


The Franco-American Western Revolution is still ongoing but near its end. It's now in its own stagnation period. We are essentially in what the Khruschev era was to the Soviet Union, and we will soon enter our equivalent of the Brezhnev era.


Nobody believes in the ideology, but some hang on to it and it's slogans and shibboleths because doing so still favors them and their allies personally. Political adventurers and ideologues of another sort threaten to upset the gravy train.

On the judgement that is befalling the collection of dolts and knaves, and their willful leaping into the Abyss;


They will do it because a lot of them are unpardonably thick.


Absolutely, all the while senselessly castigating those who do not.

On the tension between the politics of the spiritual and the earthly;


They are the affairs of men and the world but that is not to say our politics cannot be informed by spiritual realities, in fact they should be. However, religion should not be used for politics but rather as a reference for fundamental truth.


Yes, the ''Axis Mundi'' around which our lives should turn. I am reminded that in the prayers we still pray for Emperors and Patriarchs, even if there are no Emperors or Patriarchs, not because of the present temporal situation but because the way of life which is expressed by this sense of timelessness. Will there be a Tsar again? I do not know. What I do know however is that there is a Heavenly Tsar, and for my life I will render unto Him an Account on That Day.
#15161814
annatar1914 wrote:thanks for your reply my friend.


Thank you for yours as well!

annatar1914 wrote:I have noticed that many if not most people i've talked to outside the United States, and particularly from what we US Americans call the ''Old World'', have no problem making the statement you made here. I personally agree wholeheartedly with there being no ''contradiction between conservatism and socialism''. Would that make me a poor Marxist? Perhaps, but would it make me less in conformity with the reality of the situation? I have my doubts.


It's a very strange dogma that a lot of people in the English speaking world seem to have. Outside the Anglosphere there doesn't seem to be such an aversion to state driven policies among conservatives. Even in England until Thatcher's renovation of the Conservative Party there existed a bi-partisan consensus which favoured some level of state management and robust unionism.

The French and Germans do not seem to have so many problems with this, nor do the Scandinavians.

annatar1914 wrote:And are the errors of the Marxists central to their primary socio-economic claims themselves? The near-total Atheism of it's partisans (never clear to me anyway if that's truly the case, but certainly Anti-clerical/Anti-Theist) and the horrible crimes against Man and God committed?


Marxism is a tool to examine material conditions and should be taken in moderation as well as read cynically. Unfortunately the Marxist-Leninists and contemporary neo-communists treat Marxist dogmas like some type of secular religion. That doesn't stop us from making our own creative use of Marxist analysis.

annatar1914 wrote:Or even maybe more fearful an outcome in my opinion, a false ''spiritual regeneration'' that succeeded in re-animating some of the West's original hubris and universal pretensions...


That's a distinct possibility.

annatar1914 wrote:Which is why it's dangerously easy to just fall back upon a more reactionary false solution to this existential crisis, and why wisdom is so sorely needed.


The people will respond to whatever looks appealing, providing it is marketed well and appeals to their sensibilities and prejudices. That is perhaps the essence of the right populism and this has been what drives popular support since the earliest days of electoral politics. The average person does not think very deeply about politics it would seem.

annatar1914 wrote:Yes, I do happen to believe ever more strongly that ''Western Civilization'' began with the Greeks (and is thus really ''Hellenic Civilization''), and having conquered the conquering Romans, was submerged by Christianity from about 500 to 1500 AD. Only to be slowly reborn and ''blossom'' once more, increasingly more explicitly Anti-Christian and Anti-Monotheist than in the previous 20 centuries


If the Western civilisation is inherently anti-Christian then what would be the prospects for the future of a Christian West in such an instance? Do you believe that the historical trajectory can be changed?

It is very interesting that you should include Hellenic Civilisation as part of the West. The Orthodox world was very much influenced by this Hellenic Civilisation, afterall the Byzantine Empire was the only Orthodox empire in the world before the baptism of the Rus and the foundation of the Russian Empire in the 16th century. If Hellenic Civilisation was anti-Christian in its inclination how could we account for the presence of Orthodoxy in the lands of Greece?

annatar1914 wrote:A crisis, fortunately, often produces the people to deal with it, to solve problems. I think it's the Divine-Human Synergy at work.


But it also produces many evil people who mislead the masses.

annatar1914 wrote:I agree my friend. All the more reason to find sensible solutions that keep in mind the temporal common sense of the forefathers, the timeless eternal truths, and the future opportunities of a truly progressive worldview, interested in the common good.


People will naturally be drawn to what is good in the end, because the alternative is misery.

The world is driving itself into the ground but that isn't a source of any sort of comfort for normal people, it is in fact producing tremendous suffering in ways that are not always physically apparent. That these ailments are not physically obvious is part of the reason why the masses can't find a way out of this confusion, because they are not looking within.

annatar1914 wrote:Which would make a return to these traditions all the more deceptive in it's seduction, a right wing temptation which I've seen myself. Antichrist, I do not think will be a Western style liberal secularist.


That would not surprise me at all.

annatar1914 wrote:Yes, the experiment is over, only some refuse to accept that just yet. If they hate Trump, just imagine how appalled they will be in the not to distant future...


What follows from Trump will make him look like Roosevelt or JFK in the popular memory.

annatar1914 wrote:Nobody believes in the ideology, but some hang on to it and it's slogans and shibboleths because doing so still favors them and their allies personally. Political adventurers and ideologues of another sort threaten to upset the gravy train.


Which is the saddest part about this entire business, that people don't even believe or faithfully adhere to what is itself an essentially flawed political ideology, but nonetheless one with several redeeming characteristics.

The American Republicans of today would be completely alien to their ideological antecedents of the 18th century.

annatar1914 wrote:Absolutely, all the while senselessly castigating those who do not.


Looking over what you and Verv said about transhumanism it becomes apparent that it will be used to enslave humanity. Man will no longer know what reality is, he will create his own virtual reality and be dependent on it while having no control over the actual world itself. That is truly of the Antichrist system.

annatar1914 wrote:Yes, the ''Axis Mundi'' around which our lives should turn. I am reminded that in the prayers we still pray for Emperors and Patriarchs, even if there are no Emperors or Patriarchs, not because of the present temporal situation but because the way of life which is expressed by this sense of timelessness. Will there be a Tsar again? I do not know. What I do know however is that there is a Heavenly Tsar, and for my life I will render unto Him an Account on That Day.


The affairs of this temporal world change and are intagible but the world of eternity is forever. It is the only existential reality.
#15161864
@Political Interest , continuing our conversation, we had talked about the strange aversion in the United States for combining conservative and socialist political ideals. And so you reply;

It's a very strange dogma that a lot of people in the English speaking world seem to have. Outside the Anglosphere there doesn't seem to be such an aversion to state driven policies among conservatives. Even in England until Thatcher's renovation of the Conservative Party there existed a bi-partisan consensus which favoured some level of state management and robust unionism.

The French and Germans do not seem to have so many problems with this, nor do the Scandinavians.


Strange indeed. Although it occurred to me that one of the reasons why there is this divide between conservatives and socialists is simply because the elites wish this divide to exist, that the aims of both conservatives and socialists together would easily triumph otherwise.

On a related note, discussing the doctrinaire and fanatical acolytes of Marxism and their historically bloody and atheistical ways;

Marxism is a tool to examine material conditions and should be taken in moderation as well as read cynically. Unfortunately the Marxist-Leninists and contemporary neo-communists treat Marxist dogmas like some type of secular religion. That doesn't stop us from making our own creative use of Marxist analysis.


I agree. I relate it by analogy to working with a plumber or electrician in my house; they know the problem with my plumbing or my wiring in my house better than I do, but I hardly am obligated to see them as an expert on anything else necessarily. And so it is with the Marxists on Capitalism; they know Capitalism's problems, but I'm not going to consider their nonsense about religion or art or other matters.





On the trend of the Right and Right Populism, I find us in agreement to be sure;

The people will respond to whatever looks appealing, providing it is marketed well and appeals to their sensibilities and prejudices. That is perhaps the essence of the right populism and this has been what drives popular support since the earliest days of electoral politics. The average person does not think very deeply about politics it would seem.


It's almost an ersatz pseudo-religion to them, as it is with others who are on other shades of the political spectrum. However Populism offers them something not often seen in politics; the chance to idolize a charismatic political figure who embodies or seems to embody the wishes of the people. I often loathe the elitists who demonize and look down on Populists, but like the elitists, I share a very real fear of the mobilized masses too.

You have a question about a point I raised;


If the Western civilisation is inherently anti-Christian then what would be the prospects for the future of a Christian West in such an instance? Do you believe that the historical trajectory can be changed?


There are no prospects for a Christian West in the future, not anything recognizably Christian to someone Orthodox anyway. This is why I earlier posited a possible Mormon future as the religion of the West, as lunatic as that may sound at first hearing (even to myself), precisely because of it's theology. These days however, i'm more inclined to believe in the prospects for a revival of the Papacy and Roman Catholicism as the West's religion of the West's final phase. Of course the historical trajectory can be changed my friend, for it's all in God's hands...

It is very interesting that you should include Hellenic Civilisation as part of the West. The Orthodox world was very much influenced by this Hellenic Civilisation, afterall the Byzantine Empire was the only Orthodox empire in the world before the baptism of the Rus and the foundation of the Russian Empire in the 16th century. If Hellenic Civilisation was anti-Christian in its inclination how could we account for the presence of Orthodoxy in the lands of Greece?


A temporary grace, in my opinion. For one might also make the point that almost all the heresies sprung from Hellenic philosophical intellects too, from these very same lands. Russia being barbarian in origin was free of these influences at first, until about the 1600's.



The world is driving itself into the ground but that isn't a source of any sort of comfort for normal people, it is in fact producing tremendous suffering in ways that are not always physically apparent. That these ailments are not physically obvious is part of the reason why the masses can't find a way out of this confusion, because they are not looking within.


It almost demands a personalist politics, does it not?


What follows from Trump will make him look like Roosevelt or JFK in the popular memory.


So you see that too? I agree, and one doesn't have to be a Trump-hater to be fearful of the trend he represents.



Which is the saddest part about this entire business, that people don't even believe or faithfully adhere to what is itself an essentially flawed political ideology, but nonetheless one with several redeeming characteristics.

The American Republicans of today would be completely alien to their ideological antecedents of the 18th century.


The Party of Lincoln it is no longer.


Looking over what you and Verv said about transhumanism it becomes apparent that it will be used to enslave humanity. Man will no longer know what reality is, he will create his own virtual reality and be dependent on it while having no control over the actual world itself. That is truly of the Antichrist system.


It is a definite future possibility.


The affairs of this temporal world change and are intagible but the world of eternity is forever. It is the only existential reality.


That's what I grasp as well. Therefore when I view politics I view it as Pascal once gibed about Aristotle and Plato, that they knew they were ''engaged in play, making rules for a madhouse''.

If we view the human race as mad, suffering from some original anthropological malady and collectively in need of restraints, then some of the things we saw our more ''reactionary'' historical rulers engaging in make much more sense from that perspective.
#15162061
I have given thought to the words of Psalm 93;


''The Lord is the God of Vengeance; the God of Vengeance declares Himself boldly. Be exalted, O You Who judge the Earth; render the arrogant their reward. How long will sinners O Lord, how long will sinners boast, how long will they utter and speak wrongdoing, how long will all who work lawlessness speak?''

'' They humbled your people O Lord, and they maltreated Your Inheritance; they killed the widow and the resident alien, and they murdered the orphans, and said; 'The Lord will not see; nor will the God of Jacob understand.' ''

''Now understand, all you without discernment among the people, and all you fools, at length be discerning. He Who planted the ear, shall He not hear? Or He Who formed the eye, shall He not see? He Who chastises the nations, shall He not reprove them, He Who teaches man knowledge?''

''The Lord knows the thoughts of men are vain. Blessed is the man who You instruct O Lord. And whom You teach from Your law, you may give him rest from evil days, until a pit is dug for the sinner. For the Lord will not reject His people, and He will not forsake His inheritance until righteousness returns to judgement, and all the upright in heart possess it.''

''Who will rise up for me against evildoers, Or who will side with me against the workers of lawlessness? If the Lord had not helped me, my soul would have almost sojourned in Hades. If I said; 'my foot slipped', your mercy O Lord, helped me. O Lord, according to the abundance of grief in my heart, your encouragements consoled my soul. ''

''Shall a throne of lawlessness be present with You, a throne that frames trouble by an ordinance? They shall hunt for a righteous man and shall condemn innocent blood. And the Lord has become a place of refuge for me, and my God, the Helper of my hope; and repay their lawlessness to them, and according to their wickedness, the Lord our God shall destroy them.''


As the Holy Spirit says elsewhere; ''here is the patience and faith of the saints'', that the persecution of the good by the wicked shall come to an end, and a kind of satisfaction that the cruelty and vile wickedness of the hardened sinner shall eventually see them utterly destroyed.

Is it Neitzschean resentiment that motivates the Monotheist against his 'betters' ? No. It is absolute trust and faith in God that He will intervene as He has before, to crush the proud (whose very lives are a kind of persecution against the righteous), and to exalt the humble.
#15162526
annatar1914 wrote:Strange indeed. Although it occurred to me that one of the reasons why there is this divide between conservatives and socialists is simply because the elites wish this divide to exist, that the aims of both conservatives and socialists together would easily triumph otherwise.


Conservative forces have nearly always been on the side of money and power, because they are the establishment. It therefore comes to a point where they must choose whether they wish to defend the money and power or if they want to adopt socialism in order to preserve what is really important.

annatar1914 wrote:I agree. I relate it by analogy to working with a plumber or electrician in my house; they know the problem with my plumbing or my wiring in my house better than I do, but I hardly am obligated to see them as an expert on anything else necessarily. And so it is with the Marxists on Capitalism; they know Capitalism's problems, but I'm not going to consider their nonsense about religion or art or other matters.


Very true. They are only one set of experts.

annatar1914 wrote:It's almost an ersatz pseudo-religion to them, as it is with others who are on other shades of the political spectrum. However Populism offers them something not often seen in politics; the chance to idolize a charismatic political figure who embodies or seems to embody the wishes of the people. I often loathe the elitists who demonize and look down on Populists, but like the elitists, I share a very real fear of the mobilized masses too.


It seems to be a historical trend, and the masses can take this type of leader from both the left or right.

annatar1914 wrote:There are no prospects for a Christian West in the future, not anything recognizably Christian to someone Orthodox anyway. This is why I earlier posited a possible Mormon future as the religion of the West, as lunatic as that may sound at first hearing (even to myself), precisely because of it's theology. These days however, i'm more inclined to believe in the prospects for a revival of the Papacy and Roman Catholicism as the West's religion of the West's final phase. Of course the historical trajectory can be changed my friend, for it's all in God's hands...


If the future of Europe is so utterly doomed then there is no hope. But then there cannot be no hope either, because for there to be no hope would lead to despair and that is not acceptable. Therefore we must not lose hope.

There must be hope in order to keep going. The future of Europe must be worth looking forward to and living for into the future, for the sake of the future generations. Europe is too diverse and too wide to merely be written off entirely. And if Europe should fall to the complete anti-humanism then such problems would spread to the East as well, which they are already doing.

annatar1914 wrote:A temporary grace, in my opinion. For one might also make the point that almost all the heresies sprung from Hellenic philosophical intellects too, from these very same lands. Russia being barbarian in origin was free of these influences at first, until about the 1600's.


This reveals a distinct level of nuance in your thinking. You recognise the barbarian and civilised dichotomy even within the Orthodox world, you do not simply make a broad brush generalisation about the nature of the Orthodox peoples. The Greeks even of today are most certainly not a Western people, and yet they also have this heritage of being the cradle of the Western civilisation.

How do we account for the spread of the civilised attitudes to other barbarian lands, for example England, Germany, Scandinavia, and France?

annatar1914 wrote:It almost demands a personalist politics, does it not?


That is the only way the West can save itself.

annatar1914 wrote:So you see that too? I agree, and one doesn't have to be a Trump-hater to be fearful of the trend he represents.


This will be a very interesting century.

annatar1914 wrote:That's what I grasp as well. Therefore when I view politics I view it as Pascal once gibed about Aristotle and Plato, that they knew they were ''engaged in play, making rules for a madhouse''.

If we view the human race as mad, suffering from some original anthropological malady and collectively in need of restraints, then some of the things we saw our more ''reactionary'' historical rulers engaging in make much more sense from that perspective.


It also explains why we need the rules, because once the social fabric starts to deteriorate everyone starts behaving like a madman, making up his own rules to suit his own personal madness.
#15162548
@Political Interest , it's an interesting conversation, is it not? You said relative to our discussion of the conservative/socialist divide that;


Conservative forces have nearly always been on the side of money and power, because they are the establishment. It therefore comes to a point where they must choose whether they wish to defend the money and power or if they want to adopt socialism in order to preserve what is really important.


Historically, they haven't so far, the conservatives haven't. To be fair, look at the revolutionaries that have espoused some form or other of socialism-who would want to voluntarily share power with them, when they have only total victory as their aim? That being said, a move top down to implement socialism would deprive the revolutionaries of a powerful motive force among the masses. I suspect however that the Marxists intuit that any socialism that ever became a more permanent fixture of life in the future would probably not resemble something Marx or Engels would ever wish to recognize as being such.

And speaking of the Marxist revolutionaries and my analogy about them and atheism, you replied;


Very true. They are only one set of experts.


If that. Besides which their theories have to be put to the test in the actual world, where their impact can be measured in human blood and tears, as with any socio-economic system.

On worrisome populist leaders;

It seems to be a historical trend, and the masses can take this type of leader from both the left or right.


Which renders ''Left'' or ''Right'' as political descriptors even more out of date.

Now, regarding my apparently jaundiced view of Europe's fate;

If the future of Europe is so utterly doomed then there is no hope. But then there cannot be no hope either, because for there to be no hope would lead to despair and that is not acceptable. Therefore we must not lose hope.


You're right that it is unacceptable, in any case, to despair of the future of Europe, for our ancestors were not of the sort of persons to despair and give up. It is our lack of desire to live up to their legacy that is a huge part of the problem to begin with.

There must be hope in order to keep going. The future of Europe must be worth looking forward to and living for into the future, for the sake of the future generations. Europe is too diverse and too wide to merely be written off entirely. And if Europe should fall to the complete anti-humanism then such problems would spread to the East as well, which they are already doing.


Of this very thing I have been giving myself a lot of thought to ponder over. I have not yet reached some firm conclusions, but I will.

On the continued discussion of my thinking regarding the ''civilization/barbarism'' fissure, Hellenism and the Greeks, etc;

This reveals a distinct level of nuance in your thinking. You recognise the barbarian and civilised dichotomy even within the Orthodox world, you do not simply make a broad brush generalisation about the nature of the Orthodox peoples. The Greeks even of today are most certainly not a Western people, and yet they also have this heritage of being the cradle of the Western civilisation.


Yes, it's not enough, concerning the Greeks, to just stop at the centuries long ''Turkocratia'' for an explanation of why they are as they are today. That is, not a Western people, but clearly quite different from the Non-Balkan Orthodox Christians. I think that it has to do with Barbarism, with Freedom. On that I should probably elaborate, as once again the inverted values of the City twist the true meanings of words like ''Freedom''.

How do we account for the spread of the civilised attitudes to other barbarian lands, for example England, Germany, Scandinavia, and France?


In my opinion, I think long centuries of Classical Hellenistic teaching and literature gradually having an effect, especially during the period of Papal spiritual rule via the monasteries. You'll note though that most of the lands you mentioned went Protestant, and the one that didn't (France) went through long religious wars and then the French Revolution.

On a more personalist politics;


That is the only way the West can save itself.


I agree, although I'm still examining some of the logical consequences of that.


This will be a very interesting century.


Yes it will I think, and in one sense a ''short'' century (as with John Lukacs, I saw the 20th century as running from 1914 to 1989).

On the intuition of the wise that mankind is a bit mad and in need of external restraints;


It also explains why we need the rules, because once the social fabric starts to deteriorate everyone starts behaving like a madman, making up his own rules to suit his own personal madness.


Yes, although of course I have gone too far the other way at times in this Statist pro-restraint enthusiasm of mine, I'll admit.
#15163407
Today is the feast day of St. Gregory Palamas. Palamas once wrote about the true aim of human life (and of God's grace), that;

"The grace of deification is, therefore, above nature, virtue and knowledge and, according to St Maximos, all such things infinitely fall short of it. For all the virtue we can attain and such imitation of God as lies in our power does no more than fit us for union with the Deity, but it is through grace that this ineffable union is actually accomplished. Through grace God in His entirety penetrates the saints in their entirety, and the saints in their entirety penetrate God entirely, exchanging the whole of Him for themselves, and acquiring Him alone as the reward of their ascent towards Him; for He embraces them as the soul embraces the body, enabling them to be in Him as His own members."


This sums up Orthodoxy pretty well, I think.
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