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By Yggdrasill
#15158446
And by the way, asking for "clear evidence" is disingenuous. Putin is the former head of the KGB - he understands covert ops and leaving no direct connection. Everything he does is behind the scenes.
User avatar
By annatar1914
#15158449
@Drlee , not a good sign;

I am not going down your list of unsubstantiated nonsense.


Meaning; ''I'm going to deflect from and not address what you said because I don't have a logical rebuttal''.


Seriously dude. You drank the Russian Kool-Aid.


I've lived there and have family and friends there. I know what's going on, and for all practical intents and purposes, pretty much everything Western journalists and intellectuals write about Russia is either lazy, stupid, or malignant.



You do realize that this is not an argument. Don't you? Rather than address the facts you just call it "projecting". Amateurish. Won't work.


No, really, that's what this crap is, a projection of Western aggression upon it's designated victim.

There are excellent reasons why the US and Russia cannot be allies. Russian hacks us continuously.


Hacking is near universal in the information age and originates with the international corporations


They invaded Ukraine.


:lol: No, they didn't. Russian ethnic enclaves faced destruction from Neo-Fascists that all but totally control the Ukraine's new government, and they separated from this hostile new order. I know, I met a few of the over a million refugees who fled the Ukraine and had to find new homes in the Russian Federation. The West is and was willfully ignorant of their stories...


They tried to undermine our elections.


No, they didn't. Again, chaos and the rise of new Fascist orders around the world in the wake of American political disorder is something Russia neither wants nor needs.

They are our historical enemy from the cold war and those feelings go deep.


Only from reactionary old idiots who still think Russia is Communist. Most of them ironically are Trump supporters. I know, because I fight them online almost every week with their stupid and senseless hatreds.

But here is the best reason. They do not want to be. Putin had every opportunity to behave and he won't.


Bullshit. Putin has spent almost his entire political career bending over backwards to be a loyal ally of the United States and the West, while NATO inches ever closer to her frontiers, and Western intelligence agencies work tirelessly to break her apart and find a new Yeltsin to help them loot Russia once more.
Russian is a pariah state and not worth out time. There is absolutely no reason for us to make nice to Putin. If Russia is butt hurt because we don't like him let him take the steps it will take to repair our relationship. In the meantime Russia is just Brazil with nukes....


Spoken like a true racist conservative after all :roll:

Guess you really are a GOP man, writing out racist and xenophobic remarks about one of the few ''acceptable'' targets of said racism and xenophobia...

I thought you were better than that, and personally as a Slav and Orthodox Christian who knows the real Russia, it saddens me deeply, the ignorant hatreds.
User avatar
By annatar1914
#15158450
Yggdrasill wrote:I'll name ten:

Boris Berezovsky
Stanislav Markelov and Anastasia Baburova
Sergei Magnitsky
Natalia Estemerova
Anna Politkovskaya
Alexander Litvinenko
Sergei Yushkinov
Yuri Shchekochikhin

And as a recent bonus addition, Putin's current opposition leader (jailed after surviving a nerve agent assassination attempt):
Alexei Navalny


@Yggdrasill ,

There isn't a single opponent of Putin on that list that either disappeared or died that can be laid directly to him, or even indirectly, in most cases. Magnitsky for example had nothing to do with Putin but was instead likely murdered in connection with Bill Browder's criminal activities. Navalny being poisoned is likely also complete bullshit, etc... There is a lot of corruption in today's Russia, gangster and oligarch criminal activity, and in every case you listed every single person can be said to have shady partners that they had a falling out with.

Putin isn't a woman that I should love or hate him, get too emotionally involved about him one way or another. The metric by which I measure Russian leaders, or any leader of any nation for that matter, is their strength and ability to protect the Russian people when the hour of danger strikes.

I am a Socialist, but Putin most emphatically is not. But he is a sincere Russian patriot, despite that seeming flaw in socio-economics.

American patriotism is important to me as well when I look at the political leadership.
User avatar
By Godstud
#15158464
anatar1914 wrote:Can you name a single political opponent of President Putin who disappeared or died, at all? And if so, can you clearly show that anything can be laid to his doorstep by way of responsibility?


Here are 10 critics of Vladimir Putin who died violently or in suspicious ways
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... ious-ways/

Here’s a list of Putin critics who've ended up dead
Boris Nemtsov, 2015
In the 1990s, Nemtsov was a political star of post-Soviet Russia’s "young reformers." He became deputy prime minister and was, for a while, seen as possible presidential material — but it was Putin who succeeded former president Boris Yeltsin in 2000. Nemtsov publicly supported the choice, but he grew increasingly critical as Putin rolled back civil liberties and was eventually pushed to the margins of Russian political life. Nemstov led massive street rallies in protest of the 2011 parliamentary election results and wrote reports on official corruption. He also was arrested several times as the Kremlin cracked down on opposition rallies. In Feb. 2015, just hours after urging the public to join a march against Russia's military involvement in Ukraine, Nemtsov was shot four times in the back by an unknown assailant within view of the Kremlin. Putin took "personal control" of the investigation into Nemtsov’s murder, but the killer remains at large.
https://www.businessinsider.com/list-of ... ing-2016-3

@Yggdrasill Mentions them, but the article above gives you details.
User avatar
By Verv
#15158467
Yggdrasill wrote:Really great points and a great post. I still don't agree with you about the core "root" of American culture. In the Russian/Soviet example, Soviet dogma was grafted onto the Russian root, a top down approach. Those almost always fail, eventually (though what China is doing inTibet may prove the counterexample- I hope not). But the various elements of American culture tend more to become part of the root base, I think. Less visible, but there nonetheless providing nutrients to the tree.

I have to think about it more, not really having paid attention much to cultural studies for several decades. Super interesting question, though.


Really glad that you liked the post and thought it was interesting; feel free to respond at length later if you like, or not, because I am sure we will have the opportunity to discuss this in many different ways over the years if you stick around PoFo. You are a great addition to the forum.

Culture is one of the better things for people to talk about, I think, because politics is downstream from culture, and there is less hostility over people's opinions on culture.
User avatar
By Drlee
#15158486
Spoken like a true racist conservative after all :roll:

Guess you really are a GOP man, writing out racist and xenophobic remarks about one of the few ''acceptable'' targets of said racism and xenophobia...


Get an adult to look up racism for you. I guess I really got under your skin. You ran for the only cover you think works.

Russia is not a race. Having a political opponent nation that has been clearly shown to be an existential threat is not xenophobia. Do try to keep up...
User avatar
By Beren
#15158520
annatar1914 wrote:There's literally no sane reason why the two countries can't be allies

There's literally one, besides historic Anglo-Russian rivalry: difference in weight class, which will be, or already is a problem between Russia and China as well. Although it may sound ironic, only China could be a US ally, if they decided to manage the world together, anyone else could only be either a vassal or a target, except Israel perhaps. However, Russia apparently refuses vassal status.
By Patrickov
#15158522
Beren wrote:There's literally one, besides historic Anglo-Russian rivalry: difference in weight class, which will be, or already is a problem between Russia and China as well. Although it may sound ironic, only China could be a US ally, if they decided to manage the world together, anyone else could only be either a vassal or a target, except Israel perhaps. However, Russia apparently refuses vassal status.


I very much see China a vassal of Russia rather than otherwise.

I know China is about 10 times as populous as Russia, but Russia has been leading China in the past few decades if not centuries.
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By Yggdrasill
#15158549
Annatar, once you again you post all kinds of assertions with no support or rationale. Innuendo alone isn't substance.

annatar1914 wrote:@Yggdrasill
I did read those reports, and they weren't convincing in the slightest. In fact, they were so unconvincing that it suggests something entirely different from what either conservatives or liberals believe is happening from behind the scenes.


Such as?

annatar1914 wrote:That has all the marks of an in-house operation, disguised as something else.


Again, such as?

annatar1914 wrote:I'm not assuming anything. Nor am I unfamiliar with the concepts you bring up. But Russia does not want a power vacuum caused by political instability or any other reason. The period from 1941 to 1945 has taught Russia that Hitler's Germany grew out of American withdrawal from the world in the 1920's and 1930's. Can you imagine that era with a vigilant and United States and Soviet Union preventing Fascism before it started?


I have never seen or read anything to suggest that was the lesson learned (or to be learned) by the Soviets. A vigilant and proactive England and France would have been sufficient. Even more active US participation would not have lessened the resentment of Versailles, nor given the French the courage to oppose the reoccupation of the Rhineland, nor spurred the Allies to attack the Germans while they were fighting in Poland.

Putin just wrote an article on this very topic, and does even mention the role of the US in the prewar period. His focus was solely on Soviet efforts to create a mutli-lateral pact with Britain and France to contain Germany, though he ignores how those efforts were undermined by the Communist International's efforts to establish communism throughout Europe, and it's catastrophic antipathy towards non-communist social democrats. I agree with his analysis regarding the failures at Munich, and does an interesting job of justifying the occupation of Polish borders areas post invasion. However, he portrays the Soviet occupation of the Baltic States in an ahistorically positive light, and completely glosses over the Winter War.
https://nationalinterest.org/feature/vl ... -ii-162982

annatar1914 wrote:At this point it's almost a tautology that neither side will ever again accept the legitimacy of the other's winning candidates.



You keep repeating that view but don't substantiate it. "never again" is a long time. I more interested in how to reconcile different voter groups, by focusing on the many things that unite them rather than the few things that divide.
#15158592
Verv wrote:Yes, by design. Of course, in the sense that they are the original inhabitants and have lived here for thousands & thousands of years before Europeans, they are certainly the oldest & most historic peoples in America.

But both the Left & Right can acknowledge that they were on the receiving end of America, the country, for a long time, and were incorporated much later into the American system. Even still, due to reservations, they still remain semi-autonomous.

It's a sad reality but they do not actively factor into the defining of America and, even after being more integrated into our society and contributing much to it in the post-WWII era, they're numerically less relevant than even Asian-Americans (20 million versus 6 million, roughly), and are thus low visibility.

When we look at historic demographics, the US is historically 88% white and 10-11% black, with the remaining being miscellaneous other groups. The sources say the US was 1.2% Hispanic in 1920, and 3.2% in 1960 [1].


What the fuck does any of this half-assed, dumbassed garbage mean when your ideal vision of a future America is two types of people: WASPs and blacks.

Because that's how you described "Historic Americans." People who aspire to WASPdom or black people. So Native Americans just have to try to be white now?

Also just lmfao @ you phrasing everything as Indigenous peoples becoming "more integrated" as they lose power in the face of colonialism. Just lol. You get that from your Groyper friends?

Verv. Please, I'm asking you, please try to be the guy you pretend to be who likes to talk about ideas. Tell me about how Native peoples are "becoming integrated" while black people are a completely separate culture from WASPdom. I know that as a guy who likes to talk about ideas and share ideas and discuss ideas you will not shy away from this. You love talking about things!!!

Please tell us about the importance of America's historical whiteness. Please tell us about how America was 88% white at some vague point in time. I'm pretty sure you picked 88 out of thin air, with no influence from your right wing friends who make racist memes.
By Istanbuller
#15158595
It is also interesting that the US's political, economic and moral decline goes hand in hand with white population decline. Diversity backfires in America. The nation state of China beats America very badly.

Failed policies of Spanish colonialism and its population mixing left so many poor people in Southern America. Now it is America's turn, with being diagnosed with Europe's postmodern socialism and other forms of pre socialism namely social democracy, mixed economy, to experience failed policies of the past.
User avatar
By Potemkin
#15158597
Istanbuller wrote:It is also interesting that the US's political, economic and moral decline goes hand in hand with white population decline. Diversity backfires in America. The nation state of China beats America very badly.

Failed policies of Spanish colonialism and its population mixing left so many poor people in Southern America. Now it is America's turn, with being diagnosed with Europe's postmodern socialism and other forms of pre socialism namely social democracy, mixed economy, to experience failed policies of the past.

Wait, so you think the reason why Spanish colonial policies failed in Latin America was because the Spanish colonial authorities were all a bunch of socialists...? :eh:
By late
#15158598
Istanbuller wrote:
It is also interesting that the US's political, economic and moral decline goes hand in hand with white population decline. Diversity backfires in America. The nation state of China beats America very badly.

Failed policies of Spanish colonialism and its population mixing left so many poor people in Southern America. Now it is America's turn, with being diagnosed with Europe's postmodern socialism and other forms of pre socialism namely social democracy, mixed economy, to experience failed policies of the past.



That is silly. Empires decline, it's inevitable. While there are problems with having a diverse population, it's also been a source of strength.

Spanish colonialism failed for economic reasons. Everything had to come from Spain. That was great for Spain, but crippling for the colonies.
User avatar
By Potemkin
#15158600
late wrote:Spanish colonialism failed for economic reasons. Everything had to come from Spain. That was great for Spain, but crippling for the colonies.

So not socialism then? Lol.
By late
#15158602
Potemkin wrote:
So not socialism then?



You were talking about Spanish colonies.

Which was a long time ago.
User avatar
By Potemkin
#15158607
late wrote:You were talking about Spanish colonies.

Which was a long time ago.

You hear that, @Istanbuller? Apparently, history is a thing. Lol. :)
By late
#15158609
Potemkin wrote:
You hear that, @Istanbuller? Apparently, history is a thing.



You were babbling.
User avatar
By Beren
#15158614
I actually agree that failed policies left so many poor people in Southern America and now it is America's turn. Now the US is as if it's divided between Olof Palme and Juan Peron.
User avatar
By Potemkin
#15158617
Beren wrote:I actually agree that failed policies left so many poor people in Southern America and now it is America's turn. Now the US is as if it's divided between Olof Palme and Juan Peron.

I reckon the Juan Peron faction is going to win, @Beren. The USA is going to transmogrify into Argentina with nukes....
User avatar
By Beren
#15158618
Potemkin wrote:I reckon the Juan Peron faction is going to win, @Beren. The USA is going to transmogrify into Argentina with nukes....

Well, the North beat the South the last time and now they have the means and the initiative.
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