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late wrote:I don't actually pay attention to kooks when I can avoid it. Who, or what, is NAS?
wat0n wrote:Do you have precise measurements to support this claim?
I don't think that's what Williams said.
w wrote:But the NYT isn't. What's your point here?
Pants-of-dog wrote:I can think of historical examples of Indigenous societies that were more egalitarian than the USA at the time of its founding.
Pants-of-dog wrote:But this whole tangent is irrelevant to my point that many Classics scholars claim a certain universality that is contradicted by history.
Pants-of-dog wrote:Would you say that the general view in the study of classics as well as the study of western civilization is that these fields do not discuss universal experiences but instead discuss mainly the experiences of white men?
Pants-of-dog wrote:This is a contrived scandal. The fact that someone at a centre right publication also jumped on the bandwagon does not change the fact that this is an isolated debate that was then framed as a trend by right wing media.
wat0n wrote:Egalitarian in what dimensions, what's your evidence and why don't you name them?
I would be surprised if that was a mainstream opinion nowadays.
No, I would say that the universal view is that they discuss the experiences of the ancient European civilizations. It should be noted, too, that there is all sorts of literature in the Classics, including (of course) on gender & sexuality, and interactions with other cultures.
The NYT is not a center right publication, and in any event this does not negate the fact that it was not a polemic between two random academics. As with Padilla vs Williams, it surfaced in an academic Congress and led to all sorts of letters signed by several academics from the field who took sides in the controversy.
What is more noteworthy, too, is that it isn't confined to a single field of study but is happening in many simultaneously.
Pants-of-dog wrote:I already explained the main reason why I am not following this tangent any more.
Another reason is that you were the one who made the original claim; i.e. that women and BIPOC people at the time had little alternative in terms of societies that saw them as equals.
Pants-of-dog wrote:It seems like we have seen two cases where individual scholars have questioned the status quo and have noted how their fields are being used to support racism, and this is treated as a general trend in all of academia to “cancel” or censor ideas.
Pants-of-dog wrote:And you do not seem to disagree with my point that this is a controversy manufactured by right wing media and conservative academics.
Pants-of-dog wrote:and have noted how their fields are being used to support racism
MadMonk wrote:If the field of study was more accurately named "Ancient European Philosophy", which Europeans themselves forgot for a millennia, and more universal focus be both studied and taught within "Ancient World Philosophy", could be a sensible compromise. If we lived in a sensible world, that is....
wat0n wrote:And that would be correct,
Those two examples are not an exhaustive list either. I can provide you with more examples if you want, and outside the humanities to boot.
The NYT is probably the media outlet that has helped to spread this information the most, since its readership (hardly a conservative one) is likely interested in these things.
And no, actually one could say that this controversy was started by those who claimed that their whole field is immoral. Maybe it is and the controversy is actually necessary and justified, or maybe it is not, but as one would expect controversies are started by those who attempt to disrupt the status quo.
Pants-of-dog wrote:No, but this is irrelevant.
It seems we are done discussing whether or not classical studies is thought of as a universal experience.
I would like to point out that one of the justifications for keeping the Elgin marbles in the UK is that they are part of a universal western culture that we all share.
Pants-of-dog wrote:Please provide evidence that this is a general trend in academia. Also, please explain what this trend is supposedly trying to accomplish.
But for now, start with evidence that it is a trend. Thanks.
wat0n wrote:Do you think nonwhites born in the UK share that culture? Or, if I understand correctly, they can never be fully part of it?
Do you want me to provide similar examples from other fields?
Pants-of-dog wrote:Do you think the UK and the rest of the western world are so influenced by classical that the UK can claim Greek heritage?
Pants-of-dog wrote:I would think that you would need to provide several examples from a majority of fields in order to show a general trend.
Is that possible?
Pants-of-dog wrote:Feel free to explain how the classics emancipated blacks and Indigenous people, as an example of how my claim is rubbish. Thanks.
Julian658 wrote:Cancel culture is the first step before undesirable people are simply vanished form society.
QatzelOk wrote:These are people who "left the cave" and who are summarily "terminated" for their transgression.
It can all be found in the ClassicsTM.
Plato wrote lovingly about "cancelling cave-leaving culture."
Potemkin wrote:Have you even read Plato?
Do you even lift bro?
Unthinking Majority wrote:Can you explain how the classics oppressed or enslaved them?
The Greeks invented democracy. They didn't espouse it for only white people to my knowledge.
Pants-of-dog wrote:Then you should read your classics. Early democracy was limited to Athenian male landowners, who were all white.
Potemkin wrote:They were all Greeks (more specifically, they were all Athenian citizens), which is all that actually mattered to them. Most 'barbarians', especially from the north, were likely 'whiter' than the Athenians themselves, but the olive-skinned Athenians still sneered at them as 'barbarians' and wouldn't have dreamed of letting them vote in local elections. Being 'white' is a modern construction.
Herodotos-The Histories wrote:The rule of the people has the fairest name of all, equality (isonomia), and does none of the things that a monarch does. The lot determines offices, power is held accountable, and deliberation is conducted in public.
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