[Istanbuller]

Rather than debate Obamas actions, which I haven't justified in any case, you have moved the goalsposts. This quote is the only thing that matters in your strawman. Trump didn't have normal relations in the ME. Is was pretty much the same as Obamas, Bush Jrs, Clintons and Bush Snrs. He also didn't execute peace. He nearly started WW3 there and ultimately he never sent troops home. Obamas mistake was they left it too long to back rebels from the Arab spring. And then Russia backed Assad and they were left out to do anything meaningful due to international law. Obama didn't cause the refugees. Events before him did that. And as such he was powerless to do much but fight from the fringes whilst the refugees flooded into Europe. Or he could have just stepped back from it all together. And that was the same with Trump. Neither did anything to cause peace. And both threw petrol on the flames by remaining in Syria.

Your claim that Trump’s policies were not different is comical. People on other side of political spektrum wouldn’t criticise Trump so much. If it is the same, then it means you are bigot and biased against Trump. It is up to you what you want to be. You should decide. But, saying Trump was the same, you are pretty much lying.

Obama caused refugees. His actions caused millions of people to abandon their homes. Obama admin was a total disaster.

[B0ycey]

Your claim that Trump’s policies were not different is comical. People on other side of political spektrum wouldn’t criticise Trump so much. If it is the same, then it means you are bigot and biased against Trump. It is up to you what you want to be. You should decide. But, saying Trump was the same, you are pretty much lying.

I tell you what is comical. We were talking about relations and you then respond to say policies.

Get your argument straight. I know Trumps policies aren't the same. Those before him were strategic and Trump was reactionary. But to be frank, this initially started by you claiming we had 4 years of peace... which is comical. I have explained why we didn't.

As for the refugee crisis, the timeline and events that caused that was before Obama. Or should we blame Trump for that now as well because people are still trying to cross the Mediterranean on rubber boats.

[Istanbuller]

Trump did not start any war. We had a four years of peace. Why is this such a hard thing for you understand? Trump was pragmatic. Communication is the way how Trump made his mind. Under Trump’s presidency, I felt peace.

Again, no. Refugee crisis did not go back to before Obama era. It was all under Obama. He gave entire Syria to Russia. ISIS rose with Obama. Hi didn’t even fight against ISIS. It was Erdogan who crushed ISIS in just a couple of months.

[B0ycey]

Trump did not start any war. We had a four years of peace. Why is this such a hard thing for you understand?

When did I say Trump started wars.

Incidentally neither has Biden as of yet. But I guess the person who doesn't even understand their own argument is you. The opposite to peace is not war. It is conflict. By initiating conflict he has by definition not caused peace. He also retained the wars the US was part of. That again is not a sign of peace. We have not had 4 years of peace. Showing me you are obtuse is not a sign of intelligence. It shows me that you do not even understand what you have written. And strawman is the argument of losers FYI.

[late]

We had four years of peace.

We are an empire, we are never at peace. We have soldiers fighting and dying in countries you know about, and in several countries you don't know about.

What you are trying to say is he didn't start a new war. Neither did Obama, but that seems to have escaped you. Obama did expand our theater of operations in the ME, but the situation had changed, and ignoring that change wasn't really an option.

You badly need to go learn about this stuff before you babble more.

[Istanbuller]

Biden was accusing Trump for playing emperor presidency. Why is he acting such a one now?

Trump showed that you can be in peace even though that you are an empire. Biden does the opposite now.

Obama did start wars. He displaced millions of people.

[ckaihatsu]

And how much stronger would that bloc be if it included the Saudi?

You are not far from making my argument for me.

No, I'm *not* making your point for you, because Saudi Arabia is a *monarchy*, is *not* democratic in any sense of the word, and is a U.S. *ally*.

I don't really see the alternatives any better.

What the West has consistently been wrong is that they install proxies instead of doing the hard work of transforming the societies themselves.

Iraq would have been better-off *not* having been 'transformed' by the U.S. in the first decade of this century. Ditto for Libya, and Syria.

You sound like you're making the White Man's Burden argument, that the peoples of the world "need" to be transformed from above, by the Western countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man%27s_Burden

I have zero concern if they earn their petromoney the right way.

You're implying that petroleum, and the U.S. dollars used to valuate the petroleum resource / commodity, are both politically *neutral*, when that's actually *far* from the reality.

Petrodollars aren't *earned* -- it's about what percentage of the world's economic activity is *valued* in U.S. dollars, especially the key natural resource of petroleum:

Currencies used to trade oil

As the world's dominant reserve currency the United States dollar has been a major currency for trading oil (sometimes the term 'Petrodollar' is mistakenly used to refer to this concept).[8][9] In August 2018, Venezuela joined the group of countries that allow their oil to be purchased in currencies other than US Dollars, thus allowing purchases in Euros, Yuan and other directly convertible currencies.[3] Other nations that permit this include Iran.[10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrocurr ... oil_prices

---

On the other hand, Russia and China utilize these anti-West sentiment to enable dictatorial regimes to thrive and work for them.

Okay, well, since I'm neither a Russian nationalist, nor a Chinese nationalist, I don't do any flag-waving for either. Both of those countries deserve *geopolitical* independence / autonomy, though, as in relation to Western imperialist predations, but, no, neither is socialist, or controlled by their consituent working classes.

I don't find having 10 times more people living under oppression better than killing maybe a (significant I admit) fraction in order to give the rest of them a chance.

If you include the oppression of those under the military / economic / cultural hegemony of the U.S. and the Western powers, along with the otherwise-nationalist blanket that you're throwing, then you're indicating the entire non-white population of the world, since the dominant norm is that of white male property owners being the most privileged demographic in capitalist bourgeois global society.

So you think that the U.S. bombing of Iraq (and Libya, and Syria, by extension) actually *helped* Iraqi people and wasn't just Western imperialist opportunism -- ?

[ckaihatsu]

Pentagon's actions.

This is a telling indication, because the Pentagon actually became *left-leaning* and *self-restraining* compared to Trump's reckless foreign policy threats.

Now, back under 'normal', Democratic leadership, the Pentagon looks to be reverting to 'normal' imperialist foreign-policy aggression, as previously, under Obama.

Obama failed to support Syrian opposition when they were about to take down Assad.

The Free Syrian Army quickly became a geopolitical *pawn* for international bourgeois intrigues against the democratically elected sovereign Assad government -- you're indicating the same kind of 'supercop' imperialist politics as Patrickov.

By October [2011], the FSA would start to receive military support from Turkey, who allowed the rebel army to operate its command and headquarters from the country's southern Hatay province close to the Syrian border, and its field command from inside Syria.[49] The FSA would often launch attacks into Syria's northern towns and cities, while using the Turkish side of the border as a safe zone and supply route.

Prior to September 2012, the Free Syrian Army operated its command and headquarters from Turkey's southern Hatay province close to the Syrian border with field commanders operating inside Syria.[45][250] In September 2012, the FSA announced that it had moved its headquarters to rebel-controlled territory of Idlib Governorate in northern Syria,[251][252] which was later overrun by the Islamic Front in December 2013.[citation needed][253]

According to a France 24 report in October 2012, "rich businessmen from Damascus and Aleppo support the FSA as well as political organisations like the Muslim Brotherhood." The ideology of various FSA groups depended on their sponsors and funders. "If a militia receives money from the Muslim Brotherhood, then it obviously going to be an Islamist militia", an observer stated.[254]

On 7 December 2012, about 260 to 550 commanders and representatives of the Syrian armed opposition met in Antalya and elected a new 30-person military council for the FSA, called Supreme Military Council.[258] Colonel Riad al-Asaad, who was not present at the meeting, retained his formal role as Commander-in-Chief but lost effective power to Brigadier General Salim Idris, who was elected as the new Chief of Staff of the FSA and effective leader.[citation needed]

Security officials from the United States, United Kingdom, France, the Gulf Cooperation Council and Jordan were present at the meeting,[259][260][261] days before a meeting of the Friends of Syria Group that had pledged non-military aid to militant rebels.[260]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Syri ... _Formation

[ckaihatsu]

It was Erdogan who crushed ISIS in just a couple of months.

Erdogan's Turkey was initially the main regional *backer* of weapons to Islamists in Syria, particularly ISIS / ISIL, and the Islamic State.

In March [2014], FSA and Jordanian sources and video evidence suggested that the FSA received a Saudi shipment of anti-tank missiles through Jordan, and sold these to al-Nusra fighters for $15,000 each.[299] Abu Yusaf, a high-level commander of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), said in August 2014 that many of the FSA members who had been trained by United States' and Turkish and Arab military officers were now actually joining ISIL. "In the East of Syria, there is no Free Syrian Army any longer. All Free Syrian Army people [there] have joined the Islamic State" he said.[300]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Syri ... se_of_ISIL

[late]

No, I'm *not* making your point for you, because Saudi Arabia is a *monarchy*, is *not* democratic in any sense of the word, and is a U.S. *ally*.

Now that was funny.

If Iran were to visit, none of the royal family would survive.

[ckaihatsu]

Now that was funny.

If Iran were to visit, none of the royal family would survive.

Why the favoritism for the royal family of Saudi Arabia? Have you received gifts from them?

[ckaihatsu]

US intelligence report finds Saudi Crown Prince responsible for approving operation that killed Khashoggi

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/26/politics ... index.html

[late]

Why the favoritism for the royal family of Saudi Arabia? Have you received gifts from them?

Iraq is not a country, it's a basket case.

If we left, Iran would roll it up like a rug. At that point it would be next door to it's worst enemy and competitor for Muslim authority, the Saudi. The Saudi can't fight for beans. Iran would also roll them up like a rug. And then most surviving Saudi would be dead, out of the country, or converted.

And Iran would control much of the world's oil, and able to press a credible threat against the other oil producing countries in the region.

This is mostly the fault of America, but it's still a hell of a mess, and is why we do a lot of the things we do.

[ckaihatsu]

I don't really see the alternatives any better.

What the West has consistently been wrong is that they install proxies instead of doing the hard work of transforming the societies themselves.

Obama failed to support Syrian opposition when they were about to take down Assad.

---

Iraq is not a country, it's a basket case.

If we left, Iran would roll it up like a rug. At that point it would be next door to it's worst enemy and competitor for Muslim authority, the Saudi. The Saudi can't fight for beans. Iran would also roll them up like a rug. And then most surviving Saudi would be dead, out of the country, or converted.

And Iran would control much of the world's oil, and able to press a credible threat against the other oil producing countries in the region.

This is mostly the fault of America, but it's still a hell of a mess, and is why we do a lot of the things we do.

Okay, you're now added to the White-Man's-Burden imperialist club. Congrats.

[ckaihatsu]

Annnnnnnnnd here's a left-right political spectrum taxonomy, for reference. You're welcome.


Ideologies & Operations -- Fundamentals

Spoiler: show

[late]

Okay, you're now added to the White-Man's-Burden imperialist club.

I already knew you were addicted to cliches.

[ckaihatsu]

I already knew you were addicted to cliches.

It's not a flippant cliche -- it's a sound characterization that I provided evidence for, from the statements of the three of you.


Consciousness, A Material Definition

Spoiler: show

Generalizations-Characterizations

Spoiler: show

[noemon]

Erdogan's Turkey was initially the main regional *backer* of weapons to Islamists in Syria, particularly ISIS / ISIL, and the Islamic State.

It still is. Turkey moved Syrian ISIS jihadists to fight in Armenia.

Erdogan is laying claim to the Islamist of the Year award with the Aghia Sophia conversion, war against Armenia, Syria, Libya, open threats against several European countries & Islamist sermons.

[late]

It's not a flippant cliche

You have no idea what I think. This place doesn't really work at that level. I spend pretty much all my time explaining basic crap to people that usually have no interest in figuring out what is actually going on.

[ckaihatsu]

You have no idea what I think.

Yes, I do, and I already addressed it:

Iraq is not a country, it's a basket case.

If we left, Iran would roll it up like a rug. At that point it would be next door to it's worst enemy and competitor for Muslim authority, the Saudi. The Saudi can't fight for beans. Iran would also roll them up like a rug. And then most surviving Saudi would be dead, out of the country, or converted.

And Iran would control much of the world's oil, and able to press a credible threat against the other oil producing countries in the region.

This is mostly the fault of America, but it's still a hell of a mess, and is why we do a lot of the things we do.

Okay, you're now added to the White-Man's-Burden imperialist club. Congrats.

---

This place doesn't really work at that level. I spend pretty much all my time explaining basic crap to people that usually have no interest in figuring out what is actually going on.

Wow, how dramatic and heroic, literary-type.

You'd obviously rather egocentrically describe your opinion of your own efforts at politics, instead of the political matter itself.

Fortunately I'm here for the *politics* and not for literary-abstract digressions and tangential abstractions.


History, Macro-Micro -- politics-logistics-lifestyle

Spoiler: show

universal context

Spoiler: show