How to deal with Trump? - Page 8 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues and parties in the USA and Canada.

Moderator: PoFo North America Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please.
By late
#15159942
Tainari88 wrote:[usermention=27034]

I think the problem you got Late is that you should have realize why did Biden suddenly become the chosen one eh?



Biden was going nowhere until North Carolina. James Clyburn knew how politics works, and threw his full support behind Biden. That made all the difference.

That's how he became "the chosen one"...

Clyburn is an old Civil Rights guy, not some shadowy power broker. His support was as subtle as a 10 pound hammer. He got the Black community to rally behind Biden, and after that happened, he was going to get the nomination.

Politics 101, kid.

Now, when Clyburn talks, people listen, even the president.
#15159949
wat0n wrote:Unburden the debt problems of Latin America? They would simply do what the US did at some point with Cold War bilateral aid and end similarly, when the Latin American governments decide not to pay the Chinese if domestic pressures mandate so (and with far more impunity at that). The Chinese probably know this which is why they will not do something as silly as blindly lending money to Latin American governments, and indeed they have likely accepted Venezuela will not pay its debts back ever. At last, the Road and Belt Initiative doesn't quite include Latin America at all and probably never will.

Also, you are misunderstanding why the US lent money to Latin American governments in the first place. The whole point at the time was to stop the Soviet military threat through development as imagined by the Kennedy Administration, now that the Soviets are gone and the Chinese don't seem to be able to be as threatening militarily for now the US doesn't have a reason to care about Latin America for the most part... Hence the relative indifference the US has shown the region ever since the end of the Cold War and whose last peak was reached with Trump's administration and his explicit attitude that Latin America was a pest.

I'd guess you would be happy with that since that means the Americans don't really care about whatever Latin American governments do or stop doing and hence won't really interfere. This attitude also seems to be mutual as Latin American governments largely don't want to run into conflicts with the US (save Venezuela and perhaps Cuba), and the US is also not the country most Latin Americans look up to as an example to follow and hasn't been for a while even if plenty of us don't hesitate to move here, that title would go to European welfare states or Australia/NZ/Canada (no one wants to copy China either). This lack of interest isn't even unique in American history either and probably serves all sides involved well.

At last, I doubt the US cares about Chinese investment in the region as long as it doesn't translate into a military threat. If anything it probably welcomes it to some extent, particularly if that can get to decrease migratory pressures it's facing from Central America. I'd guess nothing would make the US happier than being able to dump part of the burden of keeping the region afloat on somebody else who's willing to invest in it, despite the risks. Of course, private investment would probably be preferred but I doubt they will be too picky here. If China decided to build military bases in Latin America then we would be talking about a completely different game but this isn't quite the case and the Chinese don't seem to be in a position to do so since they face actual military threats at home.


I kind of like this assessment. Lol. But, in the end though I think the USA has a lot of corporations making a lot of money. Banks and corporations. Those are the ones who wind up coming up with stupid interference scams.

The Chinese are gonna lend money. They are doing it right now in Mexico in this city and in a bunch of others. They also are talking about debt cancelation. But that won't happen till they got the Yanks out of the way and get their hooks on the markets Waton.

Have you seen the constructions on islands they have been doing lately? They are definitely planning market expansion and it is obvious.
#15159951
late wrote:Biden was going nowhere until North Carolina. James Clyburn knew how politics works, and threw his full support behind Biden. That made all the difference.

That's how he became "the chosen one"...

Clyburn is an old Civil Rights guy, not some shadowy power broker. His support was as subtle as a 10 pound hammer. He got the Black community to rally behind Biden, and after that happened, he was going to get the nomination.

Politics 101, kid.

Now, when Clyburn talks, people listen, even the president.


Who said a shadowy power broker Late?

The problem are these people who keep doing the same shit and not getting anything DONE.

They need to get rid of the filibuster and deal with McConnell and all those Republicans who would rather burn down the republic of the United States of America than give up power.

How do you cope with those people? The liberals keep watering down bills.

They got a lot of Republicans who can't alienate their Trump base and they can't alienate the people who run around supporting the payoffs. They are cowards and sellouts.

And there are a lot of them in both the Republican party and the Democratic party.

Kamala Harris is a classic liberal that is not going to do what is necessary to change the system.

So the Republican conman followers are a threat. Accept that and put the pressure on the liberals who don't do what is necessary and are not much different than the Republicans.

Because someone has to deal with the lack of change. McConnell was killing every bill for progress for a long long time.

The Republicans are committed to violent takeovers. How do you respond? That is what you should be thinking about.

There is no more middle ground now. They will go for another takeover. And it is going to continue.
#15159954
Tainari88 wrote:I kind of like this assessment. Lol. But, in the end though I think the USA has a lot of corporations making a lot of money. Banks and corporations. Those are the ones who wind up coming up with stupid interference scams.


You're misunderstanding how that happened though. What the US would do during the Cold War was to use OPIC (and similar institutions) to provide both funding and (more importantly) loan guarantees (insurance) against "political risks" such as hostile nationalizations as they were common in developing and some developed countries at the time. Since these risks were large, foreign investors were generally unwilling to invest in a Latin American country fearing expropriation and so the US government decided to step in and sharing some of the risks, all as means to develop the region economically and socially, since lack of development and poverty were seen as the main fuels of socialism there under the Alliance for Progress.

In practice, this meant that once a private business, say a bank, was nationalized by a Government at a low price then they would activate the OPIC insurance and the US government would foot the bill. As such, when these nationalizations happened it would often end up costing the taxpayer. Of course the US government did not like that and of course all administrations would often be under pressure to fight the expropriation or to retaliate, not just coming from the businesses but also from Congressmen and public opinion in general since taxpayers were the ones footing the bill. This was a typical case of the law of unintended consequences.

Tainari88 wrote:The Chinese are gonna lend money. They are doing it right now in Mexico in this city and in a bunch of others. They also are talking about debt cancelation. But that won't happen till they got the Yanks out of the way and get their hooks on the markets Waton.

Have you seen the constructions on islands they have been doing lately? They are definitely planning market expansion and it is obvious.


They are, but tell me, do you think they are doing this out of goodness or they will eventually send the receipt for this money? I think it's quite evident this isn't free, and perhaps the price may be as low as to simply not say anything about the human rights situation in China or the price could be as stated (pay the principal+interest) or the price could be much higher than that such as aligning with them diplomatically in more explicit ways or allowing the construction of military bases in their territory (the latter is unlikely since the US would clearly object).

What I think Latin American elites and actually everyone else too would prefer is to have the US and China compete for influence there, but so far neither seems to be overly interested about it. The US seems to be content with allowing Latin American economies to become coupled with China's, which is perhaps not too outrageous since the American economy itself is coupled with China's to a fair degree anyway, just as the rest of the world economy is. I also suspect the US is happy to have both China taking up some of the burden in developing Latin America for reducing immigration pressures (I highly doubt the US cares about Latin American development for other reasons but reducing that, since it's contentious at home) and having Latin America integrate with the global economy is very advantageous in other respects, after all, what country's military is protecting trade routes globally?
By late
#15159961
Tainari88 wrote:


So the Republican conman followers are a threat. Accept that and put the pressure on the liberals who don't do what is necessary and are not much different than the Republicans.

Because someone has to deal with the lack of change. McConnell was killing every bill for progress for a long long time.

The Republicans are committed to violent takeovers. How do you respond? That is what you should be thinking about.

There is no more middle ground now. They will go for another takeover. And it is going to continue.



The FBI is off the leash, they are investigating hundreds of Right wingnuts.

Yes, he was, but not all bills, and not the current Covid bill. Things are changing.

I agree, but I want to defeat them, not replace them as destroyers of the Republic...
#15159963
wat0n wrote:You're misunderstanding how that happened though. What the US would do during the Cold War was to use OPIC (and similar institutions) to provide both funding and (more importantly) loan guarantees (insurance) against "political risks" such as hostile nationalizations as they were common in developing and some developed countries at the time. Since these risks were large, foreign investors were generally unwilling to invest in a Latin American country fearing expropriation and so the US government decided to step in and sharing some of the risks, all as means to develop the region economically and socially, since lack of development and poverty were seen as the main fuels of socialism there under the Alliance for Progress.

In practice, this meant that once a private business, say a bank, was nationalized by a Government at a low price then they would activate the OPIC insurance and the US government would foot the bill. As such, when these nationalizations happened it would often end up costing the taxpayer. Of course the US government did not like that and of course all administrations would often be under pressure to fight the expropriation or to retaliate, not just coming from the businesses but also from Congressmen and public opinion in general since taxpayers were the ones footing the bill. This was a typical case of the law of unintended consequences.



They are, but tell me, do you think they are doing this out of goodness or they will eventually send the receipt for this money? I think it's quite evident this isn't free, and perhaps the price may be as low as to simply not say anything about the human rights situation in China or the price could be as stated (pay the principal+interest) or the price could be much higher than that such as aligning with them diplomatically in more explicit ways or allowing the construction of military bases in their territory (the latter is unlikely since the US would clearly object).

What I think Latin American elites and actually everyone else too would prefer is to have the US and China compete for influence there, but so far neither seems to be overly interested about it. The US seems to be content with allowing Latin American economies to become coupled with China's, which is perhaps not too outrageous since the American economy itself is coupled with China's to a fair degree anyway, just as the rest of the world economy is. I also suspect the US is happy to have both China taking up some of the burden in developing Latin America for reducing immigration pressures (I highly doubt the US cares about Latin American development for other reasons but reducing that, since it's contentious at home) and having Latin America integrate with the global economy is very advantageous in other respects, after all, what country's military is protecting trade routes globally?


Waton there isn't any some unitended anything with the USA/Latin America relationship. They simply saw us as colonies or client states that they could manipulate. Chile is a case in point. Allende despite every attempt to paint him as a threatening dictator was neither. He was a democratically elected leader. But he was not approved by Nixon or Kissinger and they moved on him. Do we have to go over every gov't the USA interfered with? Because we would be here for a very very long time discussing that Waton. The Chinese are no saints. Of course not.

The USA has to stop thinking Latin America is their damn backyard and has to do what they say or else. That shit doesn't work. It hasn't worked and all of that mentality never got any real traction. The Alliance for Progress wasn't really that Waton it was allowing US based banks and corporations to find great profits in Latin America. Some of the problems are the local governments with corruption and mismanagement but in general? Most of Latin America are democracies Waton and have the right to vote for their leaders. Many of the people in all the nations of Latin America are not rich. And Latin America and the Middle East have some of the highest inequality problems in the entire globe. Inequality is a problem the RIGHT in Latin America never did much to solve. So logically the Left had that task. If they tried to make progress the Americans backing banks and corporations would not approve. The Americans need to just get away from that forever.

Unpayable debts will never solve the problems of the region. That is absolutely true. You buy out a country and control it through owning its debt.

In the end? The most important thing is not to think that having only one nation in the Americas have access to all the resources, labor and markets is the wrong path.

The USA needs to stop the bullshit with us. You think Puerto Rico is going to recover from two hurricanes Maria and Irma and 92 Billion dollars in debt without chapter 11 bankruptcy abilities due to some racist ole Alabama politician passing legislation in the middle of the night in the USA congress? No. If you can't have schools, hospitals, control of borders and nothing of import and being dictated by some panel of bankers instead of elected officials? No hope of any kind of progress.

Most of Latin America hasn't been able to provide unemployment insurance or zero interest loans to revive the death of a lot of micro businesses in Latin America. The USA has to stop the bullshit and not try to overthrow Bolivia and Venezuela and anyone else they want to overthrow. It is going to bad for them.

The PRC again wants expansion of markets and doesn't give a damn about putting in military bases. But the USA is going to go for wars and more wars as Biden is demonstrating....and it won't stop.

IN the end it is about geopolitical control and without any kind of control and predictable agenda for the neoliberals and neocons to control and having to cope with the people who are pissed at these international capitalist agendas? Change has to happen.

Whether people like it or not.
#15159964
late wrote:The FBI is off the leash, they are investigating hundreds of Right wingnuts.

Yes, he was, but not all bills, and not the current Covid bill. Things are changing.

I agree, but I want to defeat them, not replace them as destroyers of the Republic...


You are being unrealistic Late.

McConnell wants to change Kentucky law. He wants to be able to pick a replacement for his power in the senate and not have it picked by voters. What does that tell you about these people's value systems?

The Democrats suck Late. They do. They keep refusing to implement what is badly needed. And they put up with these long ass drawn out problems for passing that CoVid bill.

I can't believe how blind the moderate liberals are about what is going on. You are dealing with violent, and fed up Right Wing nuts. And they are not some fringe group.

My opinions are weird? No Late....there is a pattern to the crazy Republicans. It is...fuck democracy and votes from the wrong people whom we want to eliminate. They will burn that society down to the ground before they lose their grip on power.

The problem is thinking capitalism is some form of negotiable scene that improves like fine wine. It never does. You have control systems in place but once the meltdown starts the only people doing well are going to be a very elitist group and the vast majority won't be doing well. Once they are not doing well? And believe in all the shit that the Right spews out there?

They are violent people Late. The FBI can't stop millions of people who are angry and pissed off. The sixties happened and the FBI tried to stem that tide. It could not stop the cultural changes. This is another one of those decades.
#15159969
@blackjack21 Still whining like a little child, are you? Bless your heart!

(I made it gender neutral so as not to insult your false indignation.)
By wat0n
#15159987
Tainari88 wrote:Waton there isn't any some unitended anything with the USA/Latin America relationship. They simply saw us as colonies or client states that they could manipulate. Chile is a case in point. Allende despite every attempt to paint him as a threatening dictator was neither. He was a democratically elected leader. But he was not approved by Nixon or Kissinger and they moved on him. Do we have to go over every gov't the USA interfered with? Because we would be here for a very very long time discussing that Waton. The Chinese are no saints. Of course not.


You are really overestimating the US here, and Allende's election is an example of why the Alliance of Progress ended up having some severe unintended consequences - the whole point of that aid was for Chileans not to elect someone like him. The American assessment was also that Allende would try to deepen the revolution, at least if he was able to win the municipal election in 1971 (which he didn't... Narrowly).

Tainari88 wrote:The USA has to stop thinking Latin America is their damn backyard and has to do what they say or else. That shit doesn't work. It hasn't worked and all of that mentality never got any real traction. The Alliance for Progress wasn't really that Waton it was allowing US based banks and corporations to find great profits in Latin America. Some of the problems are the local governments with corruption and mismanagement but in general? Most of Latin America are democracies Waton and have the right to vote for their leaders. Many of the people in all the nations of Latin America are not rich. And Latin America and the Middle East have some of the highest inequality problems in the entire globe. Inequality is a problem the RIGHT in Latin America never did much to solve. So logically the Left had that task. If they tried to make progress the Americans backing banks and corporations would not approve. The Americans need to just get away from that forever.


Neither did the left do much to solve inequality, as they were acting as Soviet proxies - instead of American ones - and/or engaging in corruption of their own. The center also failed at it.

Even worse, Latin American politicians would often approach the superpowers and basically beg them for funding, particularly once the Kennedy began with its approach but before that too. So not only they didn't do much to solve inequality but also weren't all that concerned about development either, developing and maintaining the clientelistic networks was a lot more important.

Tainari88 wrote:Unpayable debts will never solve the problems of the region. That is absolutely true. You buy out a country and control it through owning its debt.

In the end? The most important thing is not to think that having only one nation in the Americas have access to all the resources, labor and markets is the wrong path.

The USA needs to stop the bullshit with us. You think Puerto Rico is going to recover from two hurricanes Maria and Irma and 92 Billion dollars in debt without chapter 11 bankruptcy abilities due to some racist ole Alabama politician passing legislation in the middle of the night in the USA congress? No. If you can't have schools, hospitals, control of borders and nothing of import and being dictated by some panel of bankers instead of elected officials? No hope of any kind of progress.

Most of Latin America hasn't been able to provide unemployment insurance or zero interest loans to revive the death of a lot of micro businesses in Latin America. The USA has to stop the bullshit and not try to overthrow Bolivia and Venezuela and anyone else they want to overthrow. It is going to bad for them.


Why do you think this is the case?

Chile is the poster child for neoliberalism according to some yet it has been able to do as much. So what's up with that? Why haven't lefty countries like Argentina been able to do the same?

Tainari88 wrote:The PRC again wants expansion of markets and doesn't give a damn about putting in military bases. But the USA is going to go for wars and more wars as Biden is demonstrating....and it won't stop.

IN the end it is about geopolitical control and without any kind of control and predictable agenda for the neoliberals and neocons to control and having to cope with the people who are pissed at these international capitalist agendas? Change has to happen.

Whether people like it or not.


How long will the PRC have that non-militaristic position though? As long as it does, I doubt the US cares much about its economic relations with Latin American countries. As I said, if anything it has some big advantages for it since it makes it somewhat easier to manage migratory flows if Latin America grows. In reality, US-Latin America relations are not a zero-sum game.
#15159991
@wat0n the problem is that the USA has thought that they have a right to interfere with other nation's process.

That needs to stop forever. Because no one an work out their issues with people from afar with money and power making it impossible to deal with.

Chile is in good shape? Bachelet's father was offed and she wound up being tortured in Pinochet's prisons. She becomes president and she wasn't offed was she? No one is going to die because some Right wing asshole is not in charge Waton.

Look at this deal:


Chile had a long tradition of democratic rule. Why think you are going to be the democracy cops when obviously the USA now especially is not into democracy. Because McConnell is trying to avoid voting in senators in Kentucky via the ballot. You are dealing with hypocritical power hungry types.

The best deal is to get rid of the ones who keep thinking they have the right to tell others what kinds of governments they have to have or ELSE.

I am unconvinced the Americans love democracy. If I live in Puerto Rico being a Puerto Rican? My vote doesn't affect the USA. The nation that says I am part of the society. Just don't vote. A bunch of undemocratic people who don't really believe in equality Waton. I don't care what you say. That is reality. Lies and more lies about democracy. It is about power and force. Not democracy.

If they lose power? I won't cry man. What for? They did not care about others fighting for justice. But want justice only for themselves? No, it doesn't work that way.
By wat0n
#15159993
Tainari88 wrote:@wat0n the problem is that the USA has thought that they have a right to interfere with other nation's process.

That needs to stop forever. Because no one an work out their issues with people from afar with money and power making it impossible to deal with.

Chile is in good shape? Bachelet's father was offed and she wound up being tortured in Pinochet's prisons. She becomes president and she wasn't offed was she? No one is going to die because some Right wing asshole is not in charge Waton.

Look at this deal:


Chile had a long tradition of democratic rule. Why think you are going to be the democracy cops when obviously the USA now especially is not into democracy. Because McConnell is trying to avoid voting in senators in Kentucky via the ballot. You are dealing with hypocritical power hungry types.

The best deal is to get rid of the ones who keep thinking they have the right to tell others what kinds of governments they have to have or ELSE.

I am unconvinced the Americans love democracy. If I live in Puerto Rico being a Puerto Rican? My vote doesn't affect the USA. The nation that says I am part of the society. Just don't vote. A bunch of undemocratic people who don't really believe in equality Waton. I don't care what you say. That is reality. Lies and more lies about democracy. It is about power and force. Not democracy.

If they lose power? I won't cry man. What for? They did not care about others fighting for justice. But want justice only for themselves? No, it doesn't work that way.


I mentioned current Chile because it has been subsidizing employment and small businesses in a way that is more similar to what European countries have been doing than what other Latin American countries have. All while supposedly being a right wing neoliberal paradise, who for the far-left includes people like Bachelet. Why?

Also, don't you think communists in the region have also shown they believe they have a right to interfere in other countries' democratic processes as shown by their traditional support for far left guerrillas against democratically elected governments? In reality everyone plays that game, it's just that the US has been much better at it than the competition.

At last, if Puerto Rico doesn't like its status it just has to vote for independence and see what happens. But I think many would rather keep their American citizenship instead, not that I blame them.
#15160000
wat0n wrote:I mentioned current Chile because it has been subsidizing employment and small businesses in a way that is more similar to what European countries have been doing than what other Latin American countries have. All while supposedly being a right wing neoliberal paradise, who for the far-left includes people like Bachelet. Why?

Also, don't you think communists in the region have also shown they believe they have a right to interfere in other countries' democratic processes as shown by their traditional support for far left guerrillas against democratically elected governments? In reality everyone plays that game, it's just that the US has been much better at it than the competition.

At last, if Puerto Rico doesn't like its status it just has to vote for independence and see what happens. But I think many would rather keep their American citizenship instead, not that I blame them.


1) Look Waton I think you are a class conscious elite backer. You care about being well off economically and not about what is best for the working people. I am not some fake socialist. I hate fake socialists. I am about social and economic justice. If people elect a prez and that is their pick? The USA needs to not manipulate that for them to get a non Marxist. What does that mean? Someone who follows some line about capitalism Americana style is the way to go. That model only works for the Americans who killed off some 98% of their Natives and enslaved the African Americans for a couple of centuries, and did x and y to have the advantages. It seems to me you admire a bunch of might is right assholes in history. I never have. I think the best way to progress is respecting sovereign nations rights to determine their rights. Not naked capitalist power grabs.

2)So Communism is not a political philosophy that has a right to exist now? It does. Socialism does and fascism does and every political philosophy out there has a right to exist. But what a voter chooses to go for shouldn't be coerced with money and bribes and corrupt shit and propaganda about freedom and liberty for all. Because that is bullshit. See these three videos if you have the time. It is about coercion. You choose some bullshit capitalist conservative pro American citizenship for Puerto Ricans without rights. Probably because your dream is to suck up to some American capitalist form of living. Be sincere about your class Waton. You are a BURGUES and a bad one at that in my opinion and no more care about working class people in any nation.

I am old and it is easy to spot the people who only respect power and position. It is empty and false. It always will be.

3) Puerto Ricans have to survive. If you were asked to stop being Jewish or wealthy or from your family or to be able to eat? What would that be like? It happened already. In those concentration camps. People had to be into survival and give up their identities, and the people without land to call home are at the mercy at these greedy bloodthirsty fascist types. Why hold on to your Jewishness. Be grateful. GIVE IN to the Nazis. They will accept you as their equal won't they? They will let you vote in their nation. Analyze what colonialism is Waton. Because you are not even aware of what taking over by force does to other nations. Not even with the people you were born to.

Foolish kid. Lol.



Freedom yeah.



America has all the answers. NOT.

By wat0n
#15160005
Tainari88 wrote:1) Look Waton I think you are a class conscious elite backer. You care about being well off economically and not about what is best for the working people.


I don't see a contradiction between these goals.

Tainari88 wrote:I am not some fake socialist. I hate fake socialists. I am about social and economic justice. If people elect a prez and that is their pick? The USA needs to not manipulate that for them to get a non Marxist. What does that mean? Someone who follows some line about capitalism Americana style is the way to go. That model only works for the Americans who killed off some 98% of their Natives and enslaved the African Americans for a couple of centuries, and did x and y to have the advantages. It seems to me you admire a bunch of might is right assholes in history. I never have. I think the best way to progress is respecting sovereign nations rights to determine their rights. Not naked capitalist power grabs.


In reality the slave States were also doomed to being poorer than their free counterparts, which holds even today. No, just because I don't support abject and evident failures like old school socialism or understand the international system is anarchic it doesn't mean I like might is right as means to organize my country.

But I do support a responsible government that will at least make sure that its social policy is sustainable, unlike the typical Latin American populists do. So when a crisis like the current pandemic hits, the government will be able to help the population like Chile has done.

Tainari88 wrote:2)So Communism is not a political philosophy that has a right to exist now? It does. Socialism does and fascism does and every political philosophy out there has a right to exist. But what a voter chooses to go for shouldn't be coerced with money and bribes and corrupt shit and propaganda about freedom and liberty for all. Because that is bullshit. See these three videos if you have the time. It is about coercion. You choose some bullshit capitalist conservative pro American citizenship for Puerto Ricans without rights. Probably because your dream is to suck up to some American capitalist form of living. Be sincere about your class Waton. You are a BURGUES and a bad one at that in my opinion and no more care about working class people in any nation.


Funny, because for Marxists like yourself I would most definitely not be part of the burguesía, at all. I don't functionally belong to a rentier class and as things stand now my wealth is negative.

But I'm not blind, I realize that the American working class has a much higher living standard than the Latin American working classes. I can fortunately compare and it's not even a contest, hence the migratory pressure the US is facing despite the chaos that (for instance) US healthcare is.

Tainari88 wrote:I am old and it is easy to spot the people who only respect power and position. It is empty and false. It always will be.


Funny, I would think that's pretty standard attitude among those supporting los comandantes.

Tainari88 wrote:3) Puerto Ricans have to survive. If you were asked to stop being Jewish or wealthy or from your family or to be able to eat? What would that be like? It happened already. In those concentration camps. People had to be into survival and give up their identities, and the people without land to call home are at the mercy at these greedy bloodthirsty fascist types. Why hold on to your Jewishness. Be grateful. GIVE IN to the Nazis. They will accept you as their equal won't they? They will let you vote in their nation. Analyze what colonialism is Waton. Because you are not even aware of what taking over by force does to other nations. Not even with the people you were born to.

Foolish kid. Lol.



Freedom yeah.



America has all the answers. NOT.



So America is treating Puerto Ricans like Nazis treated Jews according to you? Such nonsense :roll:

In reality they are moving to the mainland to access greater living standards than what they can aspire to in the island, while remaining enfranchised, as some of them I've known did. There's a reason why voters don't go for independence.

And if they did, I doubt US politicians would move to crush such movement. Not only the optics are bad and would likely hurt the US' standing in the world, but I can imagine legit support for it among some in both parties. I actually imagine there would be much more opposition among the Puerto Ricans living in the mainland US who would become a Puerto Rican diaspora overnight, than among Trumpists who would be more than happy to rid themselves of Hispanic voters (beginning with Trump himself) and progressives who would not want to seem like racists and neocolonialists for opposing such a movement.

The sad thing is that Puerto Rico does indeed get a rough deal in the current arrangement, and that they have voted for statehood before. Since the mainland US doesn't care then you should be happy since an independentist movement will emerge sooner or later as the obvious response. But we're not there yet.
#15160007
wat0n wrote:I don't see a contradiction between these goals.



In reality the slave States were also doomed to being poorer than their free counterparts, which holds even today. No, just because I don't support abject and evident failures like old school socialism or understand the international system is anarchic it doesn't mean I like might is right as means to organize my country.

But I do support a responsible government that will at least make sure that its social policy is sustainable, unlike the typical Latin American populists do. So when a crisis like the current pandemic hits, the government will be able to help the population like Chile has done.



Funny, because for Marxists like yourself I would most definitely not be part of the burguesía, at all. I don't functionally belong to a rentier class and as things stand now my wealth is negative.

But I'm not blind, I realize that the American working class has a much higher living standard than the Latin American working classes. I can fortunately compare and it's not even a contest, hence the migratory pressure the US is facing despite the chaos that (for instance) US healthcare is.



Funny, I would think that's pretty standard attitude among those supporting los comandantes.



So America is treating Puerto Ricans like Nazis treated Jews according to you? Such nonsense :roll:

In reality they are moving to the mainland to access greater living standards than what they can aspire to in the island, while remaining enfranchised, as some of them I've known did. There's a reason why voters don't go for independence.

And if they did, I doubt US politicians would move to crush such movement. Not only the optics are bad and would likely hurt the US' standing in the world, but I can imagine legit support for it among some in both parties. I actually imagine there would be much more opposition among the Puerto Ricans living in the mainland US who would become a Puerto Rican diaspora overnight, than among Trumpists who would be more than happy to rid themselves of Hispanic voters (beginning with Trump himself) and progressives who would not want to seem like racists and neocolonialists for opposing such a movement.

The sad thing is that Puerto Rico does indeed get a rough deal in the current arrangement, and that they have voted for statehood before. Since the mainland US doesn't care then you should be happy since an independentist movement will emerge sooner or later as the obvious response. But we're not there yet.


You don't see a contradiction between these goals? Ay Wat0n I am sleepy and going to bed! Have you ever had to deal with naked greed and violence? If you did you would not be saying such naive things.

You got people in human families that circle like vultures as soon as a family member dies because they stand to gain some money out of it and plot against their own blood to gain some kind of money out of it. Why? Some people have the value of not caring about money as the end all of life. Others think that is all that matters. It is a value clash. Money versus Relationships and serving people. Some people are not satisfied with a modest income or a middle class income. They want power and power and having control of a lot of money go hand and hand. Some of those powerful people wind up shaping the worlds of many others due to that hyperindividualism. I go on.

Wat0n do people really have to leave their ancient land and abandon their native societies as a way of solving their economic woes? Because that is what a vast group of Latin American immigrants do in the USA and Puerto Ricans have to do the same. The perspective of it all is about why is that even necessary? Why can't there be some type of system where through mutual benefit there is enough to share equitably and inequality is not allowed? That is my point of view.

Then you get people shifting the blame for what is not working in the USA to the newcomers who are not assimilating and they compete with native Americans who supposedly got the world by the tail.

All these immigrants immigrating to find prosperity is not a good thing. Most people who have to uproot themselves and fail at being rich and famous have to face the reality that all societies have to be responsible for their own growth and structures and laws and needs and people. Expecting some Empire or foreign greed people to solve internal disputes they don't even understand because they have not adapted to the land, the language or the culture or the history or perspective of those displaced people is dysfunctional. The only solution to most of these issues is respecting all nations rights and peoples and working cooperatively without some exploitation and coercion and force being involved. I don't know when humans will be able to learn from their dumb mistakes and stop using violence, force and coercion for greed purposes and to get cheap labor and low prices on things they profit from mightily. That stuff needs to stop. Just see Netflix documentary about Dirty Money. It explains it all well. ;)

You think like some naive Burguesito.

Me voy a acostar and might be back tomorrow to debate your theories.
#15160012
Tainari88 wrote:You don't see a contradiction between these goals? Ay Wat0n I am sleepy and going to bed! Have you ever had to deal with naked greed and violence? If you did you would not be saying such naive things.


A contradiction between I having a better life and the working class having a better life? No, not really.

Tainari88 wrote:You got people in human families that circle like vultures as soon as a family member dies because they stand to gain some money out of it and plot against their own blood to gain some kind of money out of it. Why? Some people have the value of not caring about money as the end all of life. Others think that is all that matters. It is a value clash. Money versus Relationships and serving people. Some people are not satisfied with a modest income or a middle class income. They want power and power and having control of a lot of money go hand and hand. Some of those powerful people wind up shaping the worlds of many others due to that hyperindividualism. I go on.


Yeah, that's true. But it's an argument against idealizing socialism, actually, since nothing stops the socialist rulers from behaving like that.

Tainari88 wrote:Wat0n do people really have to leave their ancient land and abandon their native societies as a way of solving their economic woes? Because that is what a vast group of Latin American immigrants do in the USA and Puerto Ricans have to do the same. The perspective of it all is about why is that even necessary? Why can't there be some type of system where through mutual benefit there is enough to share equitably and inequality is not allowed? That is my point of view.


In reality, all societies have some inequality, including the socialist ones. The real question I think is whether they can provide good living standards to their population or at least improve the living standards they have now. This does mean you can't have too much inequality, and inequality in Latin America is way too high - even the US is egalitarian in comparison, and people here don't care nearly as much about it as Latin Americans do (or claim to do).

Ironically the US also happens to have a stronger social safety net than Latin American countries too, so even the American system would be an improvement.

But to answer your question, no, they don't if they have good governance. Does Latin America have good governance? Are Latin American elites doing a good job a it? Are Latin American voters also smart voters?

Tainari88 wrote:Then you get people shifting the blame for what is not working in the USA to the newcomers who are not assimilating and they compete with native Americans who supposedly got the world by the tail.

All these immigrants immigrating to find prosperity is not a good thing. Most people who have to uproot themselves and fail at being rich and famous have to face the reality that all societies have to be responsible for their own growth and structures and laws and needs and people. Expecting some Empire or foreign greed people to solve internal disputes they don't even understand because they have not adapted to the land, the language or the culture or the history or perspective of those displaced people is dysfunctional. The only solution to most of these issues is respecting all nations rights and peoples and working cooperatively without some exploitation and coercion and force being involved. I don't know when humans will be able to learn from their dumb mistakes and stop using violence, force and coercion for greed purposes and to get cheap labor and low prices on things they profit from mightily. That stuff needs to stop. Just see Netflix documentary about Dirty Money. It explains it all well. ;)

You think like some naive Burguesito.

Me voy a acostar and might be back tomorrow to debate your theories.


You are fixating way too much in the USA here. Latin Americans are no different, I'm hearing similar stuff from other Chileans who do currently live in Chile about Haitian and Venezuelan immigrants (Chile has had a large wave these last few years). But the Americans at least have recent experience accommodating immigrants so they have a decent idea on what to do, Latin American societies don't and in many ways have no idea of what to do - not that they can be blamed, in this case, since it's a new phenomenon. But the xenophobia you mention is not really exclusive to the gringos, and I find it concerning since this lack of experience also means Latin American societies don't know how to deal with xenophobia or how to keep it in check.
#15160015
Tainari88 wrote:Blackjack thinks the PRC is going to be the same as the Yankee dumbasses from the past. They are not going to do that BJ. They are going to regulate and stabilize those places and then they will negotiate like hell. Watch them.

And that negotiating like hell will mean a better deal for China and a worse deal for Central and South American states. Why, because instead of owing the United States money, or European powers money, you will owe China money. They aren't doing this for free--or at least that's what they think.

Tainari88 wrote:@blackjack21 thinks the Chinese think like Yankees in imperialism. They don't. They think like they always have thought like Confucius followers. A bunch of administrators who control every individual move a member of their planning scheme comes up with. They are going to think that the way to win is to negotiate with markets.

They are going to cancel debt and send in the Mandarins.

They are essentially repeating the post-WWII FDI model that the US used to do throughout the world. The reality is that nations do not like foreigners owning all that shiny new infrastructure. If they don't own it, then the state ends up owing the money--and they typically hyperinflate it away.

Tainari88 wrote:They went for a narcissistic sociopath who loves some fake Casino Capitalism.

Donald Trump has had almost nothing to do with Latin American debt crises. Why do you put the blame on Trump for things like that when this has been going on decade after decade? Lots of people dislike Trump's personality, but why put the blame on him for things he had little or no hand in?

Tainari88 wrote:The Chinese are going to unburden the problem with debt that Chile has, Brazil has, Argentina has and send in some administrators to get the economy running again. They will then control the market.

Sounds like the IMF...

Tainari88 wrote:But unlike the Yankees before them? The governments in Latin America are going to be left alone. Why?

Well, if you are letting a foreign nation control your finances and your markets, you've pretty much already handed over control of the government to foreigners.

Tainari88 wrote:Because the important thing for them is to continue to feed their own society. Not to control and overspend on military ambitions.

Who's we in this sentence?

Tainari88 wrote:Japan sure did. They had a go at China and they lost.

They didn't lose to China. They lost to the United States. Russia fought the bulk of WWII against Germany. The US fought the bulk of it against Japan.

late wrote:Biden was going nowhere until North Carolina. James Clyburn knew how politics works, and threw his full support behind Biden. That made all the difference.

South Carolina, not North Carolina. So how did James Clyburn get all of Biden's competitors to drop out of the race when they were ahead of Biden in delegates? It's too pat. The only establishment person who stayed in was Elizabeth Warren to serve as a foil to Bernie Sanders.

late wrote:Clyburn is an old Civil Rights guy, not some shadowy power broker. His support was as subtle as a 10 pound hammer. He got the Black community to rally behind Biden, and after that happened, he was going to get the nomination.

Clyburn, kingmaker but never king? Trump increased his percentage of the black vote, the Hispanic vote, the Asian vote and the LGBTQ vote. You can't spin these yarns forever. Well... maybe you can, but nobody believes Clyburn made the difference in the 2020 election, except maybe you.

Tainari88 wrote:They need to get rid of the filibuster and deal with McConnell and all those Republicans who would rather burn down the republic of the United States of America than give up power.

The filibuster ensures broader support for legislation. They can certainly get rid of it, but then you have legislation that doesn't have cross party support like ObamaCare. It's constitutional to do things that way, but it's politically unstable. I think a smaller United States could have handled that. A big country as it is today cannot be ruled exclusively by Washington, New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago or San Francisco.

Tainari88 wrote:Accept that and put the pressure on the liberals who don't do what is necessary and are not much different than the Republicans.

Late isn't anti-capitalist as such. He's a progressive. Remember the history of progressives? Eugenics? Prohibition? etc?

Tainari88 wrote:The Republicans are committed to violent takeovers.

Yes, but the Democrats are committed to voter fraud. Look at HR1. What's that about? I'll tell you. It's not about getting people to vote. It's about compelling people to register to vote. It's not about voting deadlines and absentee ballots. It's about muddying the deadlines and vitiating signature verification. Why? Trump got 12M more votes. They need to have a big list of registered voters who don't vote so that they can stuff ballots late at night or the next day once they figure out how many votes they need to steal elections. That's why they always magically "find" a box of uncounted ballots with no signatures to verify after the election is over and the votes have mostly been counted.

Trump won that election. By gaining 12M votes, it made stealing the election obvious and we have rather clear signs of a politically weak central government as a result. That's why getting rid of the filibuster and pushing radical change right now is actually a dangerous thing to do. If Biden had won 81M votes and Trump done worse than he did in 2016, we'd be having a very different discussion.

The reality of the situation is that we're not discussing Biden. We're discussing Trump. As I said, this was going to be like Darth Vader killing Obi Wan Kenobi. It strangely made Trump even more of an obsession with people, while everyone is ignoring Biden.

late wrote:The FBI is off the leash, they are investigating hundreds of Right wingnuts.

Yes, while dropping felony assault charges for BLM/Antifa rioters--making the entire Department of Justice look like a purely third world political operation. The problem with this sort of thing is that you cannot then go on and on about how Putin is corrupt, or Assad is a dictator, and so forth. The establishment has flushed its soft power down the toilet, if it still had any left. There is no more pretense of justice, fairness or anything of the kind. Why should Myanmar listen to the Biden administration about respecting elected officials and so forth? Everyone knows late. Maybe some will say it and some won't. Everyone knows.

Tainari88 wrote:Allende despite every attempt to paint him as a threatening dictator was neither. He was a democratically elected leader. But he was not approved by Nixon or Kissinger and they moved on him.

Wat0n has a point. I'm not saying you should agree with him; however, the narrative that the US simply decided for no particular reason to depose Allende isn't true. Allende promised not to appropriate US firms in Chile, but then reneged. This was true in places like Guatemala too. The US tax system is fairly corrupt, and allows companies to under declare the value of their assets for tax purposes but report different numbers to shareholders. The US has had companies seized and had foreign governments use the tax records to say to the effect, "Based on the tax records, on a discounted cash basis the company is worth x" when the market value of the company is 10x. They did this sort of thing so that they didn't have to pay fair market value for the companies they wanted to seize. That wasn't right. So the US deposed their governments. That's not right either. So I'm not trying to provide endless excuses, but that door swings both ways.

Tainari88 wrote:It is...fuck democracy and votes from the wrong people whom we want to eliminate. They will burn that society down to the ground before they lose their grip on power.

Well, if things go socialist, I could see violence. So it's not about a temporary loss of power. It's about a loss of money and freedom. That's not negotiable for many of them.

Tainari88 wrote:They are violent people Late. The FBI can't stop millions of people who are angry and pissed off. The sixties happened and the FBI tried to stem that tide. It could not stop the cultural changes. This is another one of those decades.

We are in agreement here. I don't think we agree on what the outcome will look like, but I think one aspect of the outcome is that the elite will have to come to heel if it wants to survive. Top hats, tuxedos, and limousine drivers went out of fashion during the Great Depression for a reason. Look how Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg dress--or that weirdo elf who runs Twitter. During the Great Depression, the upper classes had to content themselves with keeping what they had, not with getting even more. This is likely going to come back again if they want to survive the upheaval they are going to create with their policies and stealing elections.

Tainari88 wrote:Because McConnell is trying to avoid voting in senators in Kentucky via the ballot. You are dealing with hypocritical power hungry types.

No. That's not what's going on. McConnell is 79 years old. A year older than Biden, but mentally in good shape. He's probably not physically in the best of health and his term expires in 2027. He's anticipating that he's not going to be in the Senate in 2027 and maybe not even alive, but they ran a milquetoast guy for governor who pissed off all the parents with school age children and lost an otherwise easily winnable governor's race--why McConnell shouldn't be picking candidates anymore, as he's too old. So if McConnell steps down, the Democrat governor gets to appoint his replacement and McConnell is scheming (more like dreaming) that he can find a way to appoint his own successor. I don't think that's going to work out for him. It's actually only if he steps down at a time when they have to run a candidate and the governor can't appoint a successor for the remainder of the term that McConnell has a better chance of getting someone he wants.

Tainari88 wrote:That model only works for the Americans who killed off some 98% of their Natives and enslaved the African Americans for a couple of centuries, and did x and y to have the advantages.

That's a fairly bitter cultural Marxist treatment of history that even Marx probably wouldn't agree with. Up to 90% of the native populations died from European diseases for which they had no immunity within about 100 years of the arrival of Europeans. Think of pandemic after pandemic of smallpox, tuberculosis, influenza, measles, pertussis, bubonic plague, malaria, yellow fever, and dysentery to name a few. It wasn't some Hitler-like extermination camp. Most of that population died from disease. As for enslaved Africans, very few European settlers owned slaves. Most whites were poor. Actually, the major impetus for African slavery is that they didn't die the way either natives or white Europeans did.
By late
#15160075
blackjack21 wrote:
1) So how did James Clyburn get all of Biden's competitors to drop out of the race when they were ahead of Biden in delegates? It's too pat.


2) Clyburn, kingmaker but never king? Trump increased his percentage of the black vote.


3) Yes, but the Democrats are committed to voter fraud.


4) Trump won that election.

5) Actually, the major impetus for African slavery is that they didn't die the way either natives or white Europeans did.



1) It was junior high level math... You can't win without Black support. Duh.

2) Trump got roughly 8%, which was a 2% increase. We had this conversation before, and rebutting your lie was just as easy back then. Trying to make a big deal out of 2% is something you would expect from a very young child... one that could not yet count.
https://www.vox.com/2020/11/4/21537966/trump-black-voters-exit-polls

3) You keep repeating that lie. It's brain dead, esp. when Republicans are currently pushing bills to effectively disenfranchise Blacks in a number of states. There is a reason we have a Voting Rights Act, and it's not because Republicans play nice.

4) Another lie, Republican election officials and Republican judges say you're a liar.

5) Up to 80% of the slaves died on the voyage from Africa. They died young after they got here. It worked because there were a lot of Black people in Africa, when they died, they could be replaced.

You're nuts.
#15160131
blackjack21 wrote:And that negotiating like hell will mean a better deal for China and a worse deal for Central and South American states. Why, because instead of owing the United States money, or European powers money, you will owe China money. They aren't doing this for free--or at least that's what they think.

The Chinese won't knock off a Marxist pick for president. The Americans will. The American corporations and banks run the show and force shit down our throats. The Chinese are into access to goods and labor. And they will come up with Chinese wages. Right now they pay the Chinese labor force higher wages in China than they do in Mexico. They will offer equivalent labor value for Mexican labor=Chinese labor. The Americans insist on cheaper Mexican wages than for Chinese low wages. It is an improvement for Mexicans BJ. The Americans without a challenge fuck over Latin America. With a challenge it is as Wat0n states. They got to do more. I don't give a damn about some greedy Americans who want exploitation wages for Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Costa Ricans, Nicaraguans. Let the Chinese come up with a challenge. The Americans deserve to be punished for being some horrible horrible asshole Capitalists who have kept Mexican wages depressed and forced Mexicans from their homes to some horror of Taco Bell jobs etc, in the USA and jumping borders and living with fear over SHIT jobs. It sucks. Let the Mexicans get a better deal. The PRC wants profits but they are competing in the Americas. Instead of making friends by being fair with Mexico the Americans have depressed wages in the worst wages. Mexicans make lower wages than the Chinese in the PRC. That is BAD.

Here BJ it says the average wage in China is about $4.50 an hour and in Mexico it varies frm Yucatan $2 an hour to higher in the North of Mexico $3.95. The PRC is gonna make a jump in wages. The American companies don't want raises in Mexico. They profit. A large part of the immigration from Central America and Mexico is low depressed wages. PRC already wants parity where they will pay Mexican workers the same as they do in China. For the Mexicans? Big improvement. Lol. Americans had their chance not to be so greedy and dumb. They went for the greed. The Chinese think? 130 million population market in a country with a lot of natural resources. Raise the wages and make a deal. Undermine the American hold on the market there. Secure Chinese interests. It is what is happening Blackjack. Again, capitalism is supposed to thrive under open competition no? This is their chance.

Compare this BJ--China has consistently rising wages for its workforce. Mexico has trained and educated Mexicans making signficantly less than the Chinese. American companies are pocketing that in surplus value. For example:

https://insights.tetakawi.com/manufactu ... o-vs-china

They are essentially repeating the post-WWII FDI model that the US used to do throughout the world. The reality is that nations do not like foreigners owning all that shiny new infrastructure. If they don't own it, then the state ends up owing the money--and they typically hyperinflate it away.

Latin America needs infrastructure. AMLO is running hard on the Tren Maya. Or the urban modern train system that is to supposed to service Cancun, Playa del Carmen, etc here. It is supposed to move a lot of goods and services between Mexican states. The shiny new infrastructure the PRC proposes does become government owned but? The PRC gets a cut of the profits to be had and it also has the people managing the project. In general the PRC likes Mexican workers. They work well and long hours and are used to no welfare state. The USA is harder. The workers there want high wages and benefits. The American corporations don't give a damn about retaining that lifestyle for American workers. They are into exploitation. They were used to making BIG bucks with very low Mexican labor that is hard working, loyal and well trained in many industries. That gravy train is going to be challenged BJ. As it should be. No more American hegemony in the Americas. It is a good thing for the people who never got a slice of the American Apple Pie at all.


Donald Trump has had almost nothing to do with Latin American debt crises. Why do you put the blame on Trump for things like that when this has been going on decade after decade? Lots of people dislike Trump's personality, but why put the blame on him for things he had little or no hand in?
What the hell are you talking about BJ? Trump tried to build one of his monstrosities in Baja in Mexico and he tried to force his way into Mexican protected lands. He got a resounding NO and got PISSED off about it. He wants to make big bucks and I bet if he had been successful building that Trump shit tower in Mexico? He would have hired Mexican labor as cheaply as he could get it. I have no respect for another American capitalist exploiter who screwed over American Casino workers in Atlantic City and would have done the same with the Mexican labor force. He sucked. He also hired illegal labor in his properties in the states as well. After moaning about how one has to hire Americans only. A bunch of lying hypocritical capitalist people who really only respect their own bank accounts BJ. I don't care how innocent you paint that asshole prez 45. He was a snake.


Sounds like the IMF...

Yes indeed.


Well, if you are letting a foreign nation control your finances and your markets, you've pretty much already handed over control of the government to foreigners.

Yes and that is the premise of capitalism. If the PRC winds up owning all that debt in the USA? And you got the disloyal types with no nationalism in their values? You will get the same in the USA. Foreigners owning the USA. Karma is a boomerang BJ. And a bitch too.


Who's we in this sentence?




They didn't lose to China. They lost to the United States. Russia fought the bulk of WWII against Germany. The US fought the bulk of it against Japan.

Don't you think having to fight wars on various fronts at the same time weakened the Japanese military. Anyway BJ Japan was an Empire with Imperial ambitions. So? I don't cry for Empires losing. I think overweening ambitions is not a good thing BJ. Expensive and stupid. Controlling the world is a bit much. You should see the video of patriotism becomes nationalism becomes fascism. When you think your nation is the Cat's Meow and you want everyone's resources under your nation's superior system. You wind up with Rubble for your cities in the process. Whether it is because you put all your money in wars or you failed to invest in education for the masses and infrastructure. Your nation with too many war years will wind up losing control.


South Carolina, not North Carolina. So how did James Clyburn get all of Biden's competitors to drop out of the race when they were ahead of Biden in delegates? It's too pat. The only establishment person who stayed in was Elizabeth Warren to serve as a foil to Bernie Sanders.

Late believes in the Clyburn man. I think the Dems were and are a bunch of corporate sellouts. Maybe Late thinks they are true believers in racial justice? I don't know. Liberals are liberals.


Clyburn, kingmaker but never king? Trump increased his percentage of the black vote, the Hispanic vote, the Asian vote and the LGBTQ vote. You can't spin these yarns forever. Well... maybe you can, but nobody believes Clyburn made the difference in the 2020 election, except maybe you.

The base are not LGBTQ types. That is a myth. :D



The filibuster ensures broader support for legislation. They can certainly get rid of it, but then you have legislation that doesn't have cross party support like ObamaCare. It's constitutional to do things that way, but it's politically unstable. I think a smaller United States could have handled that. A big country as it is today cannot be ruled exclusively by Washington, New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago or San Francisco.


Late isn't anti-capitalist as such. He's a progressive. Remember the history of progressives? Eugenics? Prohibition? etc?


Yes, but the Democrats are committed to voter fraud. Look at HR1. What's that about? I'll tell you. It's not about getting people to vote. It's about compelling people to register to vote. It's not about voting deadlines and absentee ballots. It's about muddying the deadlines and vitiating signature verification. Why? Trump got 12M more votes. They need to have a big list of registered voters who don't vote so that they can stuff ballots late at night or the next day once they figure out how many votes they need to steal elections. That's why they always magically "find" a box of uncounted ballots with no signatures to verify after the election is over and the votes have mostly been counted.

Trump won that election. By gaining 12M votes, it made stealing the election obvious and we have rather clear signs of a politically weak central government as a result. That's why getting rid of the filibuster and pushing radical change right now is actually a dangerous thing to do. If Biden had won 81M votes and Trump done worse than he did in 2016, we'd be having a very different discussion.

The reality of the situation is that we're not discussing Biden. We're discussing Trump. As I said, this was going to be like Darth Vader killing Obi Wan Kenobi. It strangely made Trump even more of an obsession with people, while everyone is ignoring Biden.


Yes, while dropping felony assault charges for BLM/Antifa rioters--making the entire Department of Justice look like a purely third world political operation. The problem with this sort of thing is that you cannot then go on and on about how Putin is corrupt, or Assad is a dictator, and so forth. The establishment has flushed its soft power down the toilet, if it still had any left. There is no more pretense of justice, fairness or anything of the kind. Why should Myanmar listen to the Biden administration about respecting elected officials and so forth? Everyone knows late. Maybe some will say it and some won't. Everyone knows.


Wat0n has a point. I'm not saying you should agree with him; however, the narrative that the US simply decided for no particular reason to depose Allende isn't true. Allende promised not to appropriate US firms in Chile, but then reneged. This was true in places like Guatemala too. The US tax system is fairly corrupt, and allows companies to under declare the value of their assets for tax purposes but report different numbers to shareholders. The US has had companies seized and had foreign governments use the tax records to say to the effect, "Based on the tax records, on a discounted cash basis the company is worth x" when the market value of the company is 10x. They did this sort of thing so that they didn't have to pay fair market value for the companies they wanted to seize. That wasn't right. So the US deposed their governments. That's not right either. So I'm not trying to provide endless excuses, but that door swings both ways.


Well, if things go socialist, I could see violence. So it's not about a temporary loss of power. It's about a loss of money and freedom. That's not negotiable for many of them.


We are in agreement here. I don't think we agree on what the outcome will look like, but I think one aspect of the outcome is that the elite will have to come to heel if it wants to survive. Top hats, tuxedos, and limousine drivers went out of fashion during the Great Depression for a reason. Look how Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg dress--or that weirdo elf who runs Twitter. During the Great Depression, the upper classes had to content themselves with keeping what they had, not with getting even more. This is likely going to come back again if they want to survive the upheaval they are going to create with their policies and stealing elections.


No. That's not what's going on. McConnell is 79 years old. A year older than Biden, but mentally in good shape. He's probably not physically in the best of health and his term expires in 2027. He's anticipating that he's not going to be in the Senate in 2027 and maybe not even alive, but they ran a milquetoast guy for governor who pissed off all the parents with school age children and lost an otherwise easily winnable governor's race--why McConnell shouldn't be picking candidates anymore, as he's too old. So if McConnell steps down, the Democrat governor gets to appoint his replacement and McConnell is scheming (more like dreaming) that he can find a way to appoint his own successor. I don't think that's going to work out for him. It's actually only if he steps down at a time when they have to run a candidate and the governor can't appoint a successor for the remainder of the term that McConnell has a better chance of getting someone he wants.


That's a fairly bitter cultural Marxist treatment of history that even Marx probably wouldn't agree with. Up to 90% of the native populations died from European diseases for which they had no immunity within about 100 years of the arrival of Europeans. Think of pandemic after pandemic of smallpox, tuberculosis, influenza, measles, pertussis, bubonic plague, malaria, yellow fever, and dysentery to name a few. It wasn't some Hitler-like extermination camp. Most of that population died from disease. As for enslaved Africans, very few European settlers owned slaves. Most whites were poor. Actually, the major impetus for African slavery is that they didn't die the way either natives or white Europeans did.
Last edited by Tainari88 on 08 Mar 2021 21:17, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Rancid
#15160135
I like the last few posts. Interesting. The only thing I have to add is that I think Tainari's outlook on China's impact to the globe and to Latin America is very naive. China don't give a fuck about no one, not even their own people (see Hong Kong and Uyghirs)
#15160141
Rancid wrote:I like the last few posts. Interesting. The only thing I have to add is that I think Tainari's outlook on China's impact to the globe and to Latin America is very naive. China don't give a fuck about no one, not even their own people (see Hong Kong and Uyghirs)


My experiences says that the USA doesn't give a fuck about Latin America. So why should I be looking out for the USA? It doesn't give a shit about us at all Rancid. In fact, the USA capitalist is about greed. Thinking they are better? How? The Chinese are a very old nation who has had the worst shit happen in the world. The USA is about another story....and I don't like the story. because Puerto Rico got a raw deal. And it is about survival. I happen to think that you get to see people at their worst with the little places. And the USA doesn't really go to war unless they decide they can win it. I have very little regard for a bunch of liars.

And the Americans for the Latin Americans are incredibly consistent lying pieces of shit. Too bad to tell you the truth Rancid but they are.

In the end? The future is a multi polarity. It is going to be various nations in competition for the lead. The American Century was pissed away by a bunch of Greedy Capitalists who sold their government authority for $$$$. Mammon won that battle. :D

It is better to have two snakes at each others throats for the third unaligned group to sneak away and start thinking about how to escape....hee hee hee. See, Che Guevara's take about the Cold War to understand what I am talking about Rancid.

The Chinese are human beings. Just like you and me. Lol. And your wife. And they vary. Some are Commies some are socialists, some are capitalists and some are liberals. And they got to fight it out Rancid just like all of us.

I am not naive Rancid. You need to realize? This is not about caring it is about politics. And again for me politics should be about justice. If it is not about justice and it is about greed and lies and bullshit? War is the end result. And if you think war is sustainable? History says otherwise. My perspective is always going to be treating all humans with equality and respect and seeking justice through political negotiations. If you can't do that?

Why even bother with politics? I would not. It means human beings are a lost cause and give up the fight. Let us all blow each other up to kingdom come with Nukes. And kiss the Earth goodbye. Why live in a world where all we are to each other are pieces of meat with no worth or dignity or respect given for being human?

I don't want to live in that kind of world? Do you? Most governments want to negotiate deals. So having them compete for a better deal for your own nation is best. No?

What do you think Rancid?
  • 1
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9

@wat0n Okay. Please understand that I will n[…]

How is arriving armed and taking over residential[…]

The industrialists first and foremost financed th[…]

Right, so reducing the number of units helps with[…]