18, 890 kids at the border, and that was just March - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15165902
wat0n wrote:@Tainari88 saying that "corruption happens in socialism because the population has to face a much higher bar" is hardly a good explanation.

You say that in the end corruption leads to Revolution, and cite China and Zinn's views on US history (which I'm sure is not a consensus among American historians). True, but that happens when your political system cannot properly deal with it, and that will happen when it has poor or non-existent checks and balances. It's why real socialist regimes in reality would eventually become very, very corrupt for our lower capitalist standards and it would be widespread since it's necessary for getting even basic amenities of life done.

I don't think you can fully eliminate corruption but we can reduce it so it at least doesn't make life unlivable and the government terminally dysfunctional.


You better start citing your sources Wat0n because I have done my homework on cooperative socialist models that work.

A lot? So if you want to posit that socialism fails because the nature of humans is selfish self-destruction? Your view SUCKS. It is not working (the cutthroat capitalism doesn't work Wat0n). In fact, all the structures you like about the USA is and has been from a series of American socialists. Listen to the audiobook by Sunkara:



Lincoln and Karl Marx exchanged letters on the theme of slavery. What happened with these organizations who were responsible for ending child labor and for greater equality in American history? You don't know it Wat0n. You go to the public library in Chicago and check out Howard Zinn's book and Sunkara, and I have three hundred more books on socialism that is international in scope and what worked spectacularly well in many societies all over the world. Start reading the letter exchange between Abe Lincoln and Marx. It is interesting. Marx thought owning human beings via making them property was not a good idea ever. Lol. Lincoln was trying to save the union.

Dedicate yourself to historical reading. Learn. It teaches you that all the lies about other ideologies that are not some get rich quick scheme in capitalist high finance fraud circles on Wall Street is about human intelligence trying to fix what is unjust.

But if you let yourself believe in what is the worst of the scenarios? You fall.

The thing is Wat0n, the failure is about what the high tech quanters talked about when making their algorithms it is interesting....you failed to address what the guy with the beard said about the faith in capitalism being broken. It is troubling that the ones who dedicated their brainpower to making technology work for capitalism don't trust it at all. Yet you do? Por que?
#15165905
wat0n wrote:@Tainari88 the corruption in socialist regimes, past and present, is well documented and well known. Maybe it is you who should go on and do the reading.

Also, we're not in the 19th century anymore. Socialism was already attempted and the results of such attempts are already known.


I am not convinced you know about Caribbean influenced political movements. The example you gave as being a failure? It is about the British colonial empire fighting and repressing with violence democratically elected leaders. British Guyana became independent.

How many years and centuries has capitalism been allowed to rain and it has failed to get even the richest of the nations the USA universal health care, equal and safe economic benefits to working people, women making the same as men for doing the same work and jobs? And at least the right to go to the dentist if there is a tooth that is infected and you don't have medicare coverage and not enough money? Basic stuff has not been solved.

You dodge the question I posed about those dudes who know Wall Street well and they lost trust. They are very very intelligent. Male, and white. They don't trust. Don't you want to know why they had issues with Wall Street? Capitalism? The system that you are attached as hell to....

Socialism is failed....you say. You don't answer the question of the Haim man.....from Trading Machines. Who went to the FCC. The one that explained why the system of capitalism is flawed and about power plays and jumping the queue as he cited the newspaper there.....you don't answer the question and just say it failed but I don't want to read the successes in cooperative models. It failed. And that is that.

You lost the entire debate my main Wat0n. You can't answer. You failed. It is just about you being found out you did not really have much to counter it with.

British Guyana (I will highlight in yellow the part that the PPP kept winning elections and they are not accepted by the Imperial assholes who did not want to lose their goose that laid the golden egg profits. That is the problem Wat0n. Extraction states serving the rich nations sucking off wealth like vampires. And you can't find the way to counter why the ones who dedicated their substantial brainpower to enhancing the technological advances in capitalism and they say,......................2010 flash crash, ex Goldman Sachs guy....Haim....say....it is rigged. It is skewed.

Secrecy is part of corruption descriptions. The documentary with the quants say that Wall Street is about secrecacy, taking advantage of low hanging dumb fruit (pension funds and IRA financial investments by the gullible), 90% of the capitalist hedge fund types in high finance don't understand the system they live under...and you have no answer---but I won't be reading your referred stuff. It is an audiobook Wat0n you listen to it on your way to work or during free time.

Perdiste. Eres un hombre que no pudo.

Denial is not pretty. Hee hee. :D I only tell it like it is...

For you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Guiana

If you want something to play with, find yourself a toy,
My time is too expensive...hee hee....

If you are serious, don't play with my heart, it makes me furious,

But if you want me to love you....baby you know I will,

don't be ashamed, let your conscious be your guide,

I believe you love me, forgive your foolish pride,
Life is too short to have sorrow, you may be here today and gone tomorrow,

So go on and live, TELL IT LIKE IT IS.

Wat0n I tell it like it is.....no te gusta eh?



Zinn's premise is telling history through the eyes of regular working class people's struggles and problems and pressure on the powerful in the power seats. Not through the rich and powerful and how they are always the ones who want to control the message to favor what favors them. You know? Mentiras.

Tell it like it is. I do think you don't have a reply to what I asked you....Perdiste. Adios. ;) A disfrutar la voz preciosa de Aaron Neville. :)
#15165909
You seem to be missing the point. You claimed socialism does away with corruption, but no, it doesn't. Corruption also existed and exists in socialist states as well.

The greed you mention also exists in those societies, for some reason. You have yet to say something better than just "well, they have higher standards".
#15165912
Tainari88 wrote:You better start citing your sources Wat0n because I have done my homework on cooperative socialist models that work.

There are no "working models" for a society-wide socialist cooperative economy. This is because 100% of economic models don't work because they can't possibly factor in the millions of necessary variables with any accuracy.

Even the current capitalist economy wasn't pre-planned with any model, it came about organically over a long period of time based on want and need of real economic activity. If the global economy does transition to socialism it will very likely occur organically. So I would suggest if you believe in cooperatives then go form your own and if they work as you say they'll continue to catch on and grow from there.

What the world doesn't need is more people with power who think they know how to solve all of the world's economic problems but don't actually have any clue. This is how Mao killed 50 million people via famine. Naive idealists can be just as dangerous psychotic fascists. This is why I think most MMT'ers are dangerous fools.

Also, if you plan to reply to this please make your reply concise as I tend not to read very long posts.
#15165914
wat0n wrote:You seem to be missing the point. You claimed socialism does away with corruption, but no, it doesn't. Corruption also existed and exists in socialist states as well.

The greed you mention also exists in those societies, for some reason. You have yet to say something better than just "well, they have higher standards".


Do you study psychology? I told you that I adhere to the socialist humanist psychologist Erich Fromm. Did you read him yet? Yes or no?

He explains human psychological behavior. The whys of human behavior like greed, crime, corruption. How will a master psychologist be a socialist? He would go for a failed system coping with human psychological defects? He would not Wat0n.

The only way you can start coping with understanding it all in context is by reading it. Why are people corrupt, greedy, liars, criminals, abusive and aggressive? What families shape people and their states. This Haim B. man from the documentary grew up with mathematicians and Nobel prize physicists eh? He was hired at Goldman Sachs to create a computer program that was highly efficient in high speed trading. He spent a lot of hours and time with the underlying premise that the way Wall Street did trading and investments was about the creme of the crop of economic activity. He found out he had the wrong model. Did you see how he drew the way it is actually done? Concert....Metallica and the dudes doing ticket scalps. Do you think you can figure out why that hardcore computer programming genius would say that?

If you keep hanging on to myths about what capitalism is about....and the references of fine minds should be working on climate change/global warming problems and curing diseases instead because he is admitting it is all about fraud and lying and shams and corruption.

Socialism has the seed of the center of its purpose. So does capitalism.

Make it easy for you? Socialism-center of that word? Society. Put it first.

Capitalism-center of that word? Capital. Money, investments, property and OBJECTS. Not society.

But who consumes all that stuff Wat0n? People. Humans. Working, consuming, going to work, doing things, etc. if you under slavery make them property and limit their freedoms? Capitalism comes along and says they are not property. But they can sell time of labor to us and our job is to extract as much from them and their time and labor as is legally allowed. They retain the freedom to sever the relationship and enter into another relationship of labor-wages with another capitalist tht might favor them more and exploit them less. People flee exploitation and lack of living standards. As evidenced by the amount of kids at that border. They are not there for capitalism. Kids are not allowed to work for wages. Not in the USA. So they are being sent to take advantage of socialist concepts like public free education schools. Undocumented kids in Plessy vs x y z case you have to educate kids regardless of immigration status.

They are here for SOCIALIST free stuff. because their parents are not allowed to be with them. They don't have it in their nations. Not the kind that is of higher quality. So they are out there orphaned Wat0n.

Looking for a home and bed, a school and some free stuff that the state provides in the countries who have socialist taxation funds for the ones with ZERO in the bank.

And you think it fails? It is the reason they are there en los EEUU. Because they have an absence of socialism in Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, y la cosa esta que arde de violencia y desesperacion.

They can't legally work. They are looking for the free stuff and the socialist FDR policies that pushed millions of American citizens to get free educations and the ability to find a path to earning higher incomes. The socialist fight of many many years ago....that is what they are walking for. Not the possibility of being Stock brokers in Manhattan. Those dudes got the money. They just admitted that they don't trust the system that made them rich. Because they are not superficial people who buy all those lying shit messages from the people who keep saying how the thing is easy in the USA.

Mentiras de los poderosos.

Yes, getting people to work for the best of the group without becoming super wealthy but a balanced life of decency and care...and putting limits to bloated wealth is not for the ones who are not willing to put a lot of effort to solve these very serious issues. It is not for the ones who fear failure.

Like many in the military know, failure is part of life. But eventually if you do things with corazon, ganas, y esfuerzo you make good things change in a rotten system. That goes for both systems. But if you are smart? You humanize economics and not think humans are meant to be exploited. They tend to run from exploitation. All the time.

That is what all this border issue is about.

wat0n, it is a man's world in this forum. A lot of men. Rei Murasame would know this. Lol.

But? You guys here would be nothing without a woman or a girl. :)



Buenas noches Wat0n.

My son is asking for dinner. He looks like he is wanting to eat a lot of food. Duty calls. Let me hum and sing, this is a man's world!

I sure like my world. It is all about feminine points of view eh? 8)
#15165915
wat0n wrote:You seem to be missing the point. You claimed socialism does away with corruption, but no, it doesn't. Corruption also existed and exists in socialist states as well.

The greed you mention also exists in those societies, for some reason. You have yet to say something better than just "well, they have higher standards".

Castro, Mao etc proclaimed an end to the exploitative bourgeoisie but then stole their people's money and lived in large palaces. It turns out cooperation is not the crux of human nature, and if you give most people an inch they will take it to further their own self-interests.

Capitalism has been very productive because it takes advantage of everyone seeking their own self-interests. The problem (among others) is that people with power take advantage of those with little, so regulations are needed.
#15165916
@Tainari88 I've read Fromm, although not his books about psychology. I find it hard to see how he explains humans can do away with greed, and more importantly I also don't know if his claims have been subject to scrutiny. Actually psychology, or more precisely social psychology, is undergoing a deep crisis because it turns out that many seminal empirical studies are, well, not replicable.
#15165920
Unthinking Majority wrote:Corruption happens in every government in every system. Corruption happens when you give people power and they're able to get away with things because of lack of oversight and accountability.

Therefore, there's far more corruption in communist governments because they are dictatorships where oversight and accountability is almost non-existent. Healthy democracies have the least corruption because they have the strongest oversight and accountability.

Power corrupts virtually everyone, because people are generally selfish, except the very very small minority of people who have integrity. But very few people with integrity get to the top of the power pyramid because to get there you almost always have to lie, cheat, give and receive slimy favors, and kiss ass.


This seems like a simplistic way of looking at things.

I think some countries are more corrupt than others, and that this is due to differences in history.

————————

@wat0n

Since British Guyana is not a place that asylum seekers at the Rio Grande come from, it is not on topic.
#15165923
Pants-of-dog wrote:This seems like a simplistic way of looking at things.

I think some countries are more corrupt than others, and that this is due to differences in history.

How does history factor in?

Are there any other factors besides oversight, accountability, and poverty?

I would think the things you would need for corruption to happen are:
-The opportunity to do corrupt things
-ability to get away with it
-factors that would make people more likely to choose corruption (poverty)
-social/cultural norms about corruption (probably not a strong factor compared to others)

Since British Guyana is not a place that asylum seekers at the Rio Grande come from, it is not on topic.

It's on topic if one wants to compare the country to others in Latin America, which is what @wat0n is doing.
#15165929
Unthinking Majority wrote:Castro, Mao etc proclaimed an end to the exploitative bourgeoisie but then stole their people's money and lived in large palaces. It turns out cooperation is not the crux of human nature, and if you give most people an inch they will take it to further their own self-interests.

Capitalism has been very productive because it takes advantage of everyone seeking their own self-interests. The problem (among others) is that people with power take advantage of those with little, so regulations are needed.


I think you need this video Unthinking. I think you are thinking that regulation is the issue. The issue is a deeply problematic core thing. Greed. Fear. Randomness.

The Quants.



Where is the essential nature of these banks? The British man quant said some profound things about capitalism.

it is about the messiness of people and as such as one of them said,
"People don't work that way." The homo sapien species is not neat and clean in understanding. it is messy.
#15165943
Tainari88 wrote:I think you need this video Unthinking. I think you are thinking that regulation is the issue. The issue is a deeply problematic core thing. Greed. Fear. Randomness.

Where is the essential nature of these banks? The British man quant said some profound things about capitalism.

it is about the messiness of people and as such as one of them said,
"People don't work that way." The homo sapien species is not neat and clean in understanding. it is messy.

What is a solution other than regulation that has proven to work better?

There has never been and never will be a perfect society, so you just have to make things the best that they can be.
#15165948
Unthinking Majority wrote:What is a solution other than regulation that has proven to work better?

There has never been and never will be a perfect society, so you just have to make things the best that they can be.


I say take a page from German politics, according to Richard Wolff they had a political party named:




Come on @Unthinking Majority you are a lot younger than I am. You should be full of optimism and bright and bushy-tailed with enthusiasm there.

I think we are an amazing species and full of light-filled potential. But the first step is believing you can do better as a human being.

Debate the structure of the results.

You should be able to find something better. You are young. My life is half over or more. I am in Act 3. You are not darling.

Be full of hope. It is the last thing to escape from that Greek myth. Pandora's box.
#15165949
Tainari88 wrote:I say take a page from German politics, according to Richard Wolff they had a political party named

Marx and Hitler were both Germans. The Germans popularized 2 of the worst political ideologies of the last 200 years. German political ideas should be looked at with caution.

Come on @Unthinking Majority you are a lot younger than I am. You should be full of optimism and bright and bushy-tailed with enthusiasm there.

I'm not hopeless nor unoptimistic, I'm just not naive nor an idealist. Improvements in society and economics are always possible and will keep happening. But bad ideas should be rejected outright.

18k kids at the US border. Some will say poor them, they need help. Others will say they're trying to take advantage of America's kindness. I think it's a mix of both, or one or the other, depending on the case.
#15166076
Biden administration invited them. DHS openly talks abolishing US border patrols. Kamala Harris doesn't see it as a crisis. Democrats and Republicans have very different views on this matter. It is up to US voters to decide what they want. Do they want a secure border and Trump wall or cheap labor and refugee influxes? It will be decided in 2022 elections.
#15166110
Unthinking Majority wrote:Biden to restart construction on Trump's border wall. You can't make this stuff up folks:

https://www.businessinsider.in/politics ... 952018.cms

Biden said he was against the wall to get the votes of the Hispanics and the woke segment of the party. Biden is just an HRC type that says whatever will get him elected. No different than any other politician.

Now he has a mess in the border and the children seem to be in much worse shape than under Trump. The media will be silent, no doubt.
#15166499
Unthinking Majority wrote:Biden to restart construction on Trump's border wall. You can't make this stuff up folks:

https://www.businessinsider.in/politics ... 952018.cms

Wasn't the wall racist when Trump was the president? What changed now? It should be clarified how many illegal aliens Biden administration brought into American soil by breaking laws?

Border security was a priority for Trump administration. It wasn't a matter of politics.

It is Biden administration who do not have any principles. They send mixed signals. When they sense that they are losing votes, they easily switch sides. Biden administration has no priority.
#15166513
Istanbuller wrote:
Wasn't the wall racist when Trump was the president? What changed now? It should be clarified how many illegal aliens Biden administration brought into American soil by breaking laws?

Border security was a priority for Trump administration. It wasn't a matter of politics.

It is Biden administration who do not have any principles. They send mixed signals. When they sense that they are losing votes, they easily switch sides. Biden administration has no priority.



Welcome to the planet. Since you are new arrivals, here's some background info.. Trump wanted the wall to go all the way, Biden wants to patch some holes. If he didn't, you would whine about that.

Trump's intent was cruelty, and he wasn't subtle about, acting in violation of American and international law. That's not Biden's intent.

For those that want to look like adults, rather than whine, look to reduce the chaos south of the border. It's quite doable, if you know how.

Let me know when you give up and need help.
#15166540
late wrote:Welcome to the planet. Since you are new arrivals, here's some background info.. Trump wanted the wall to go all the way, Biden wants to patch some holes. If he didn't, you would whine about that.

Trump's intent was cruelty, and he wasn't subtle about, acting in violation of American and international law. That's not Biden's intent.

For those that want to look like adults, rather than whine, look to reduce the chaos south of the border. It's quite doable, if you know how.

Let me know when you give up and need help.

Translation:

Trump is openly racist.
Biden practices subtle condescending racism. He has the HRC moves down to a science.
Last edited by Julian658 on 13 Apr 2021 23:21, edited 1 time in total.
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