Turkey detains retired admirals for open letter criticising canal project - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15165134
Politico wrote:
Turkey detained ten retired admirals after an open letter voicing worry that the government’s Canal Istanbul plans could undermine the 1936 Montreux Convention.

Ankara sees the letter signed by more than 100 retired navy officers and posted online as reminiscent of past coups. The most recent Turkish coup attempt was in 2016.

The letter voiced concern over Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s plan to create a new waterway, Istanbul Canal, between the Black Sea and the Sea of Marmara to ease maritime flows through the Bosporus and Dardanelles.

The proposal is seen by some as challenge to the Montreux Convention, which regulates the right of passage through the straits. The international treaty allows all commercial ships to sail through the Bosporus and Dardanelles straits and limits the passage of foreign warships.

“We are of the opinion to refrain from any kind of rhetoric or action that could make the Montreux Convention… a matter of controversy,” the letter says.

The public prosecutor in charge of terrorism is now investigating the signatories for “agreement to commit crimes against the security of the state,” according to state-run Anadolu Agency, and called on four other retired officers to turn themselves in within three days. The prosecutor is investigating whether the officers have any links to serving members of the military.


The new canal currently under construction will not be subject to the Montreux convention. Turkey and Erdogan have failed to declare that Turkey will respect the convention as a matter of custom and has now jailed those calling her to do so.

The Montreux Convention allows the free passage to commercial ships and regulates the passage of warships.
#15166079
Your source is misleading. Those retired generals tried to intervene to policies of the government. They published it during midnight like a declaration of coup. This kind of anti democratic actions against elected policirians should not be tolerated. It is politicians' job to discuss these matters, not generals

One thing is nice about these coup threats. It makes Erdoğan further popular. Voters easily make up their minds and stand with Erdoğan. :lol:
#15166088
noemon wrote:The new canal currently under construction will not be subject to the Montreux convention. Turkey and Erdogan have failed to declare that Turkey will respect the convention as a matter of custom and has now jailed those calling her to do so.

The Montreux Convention allows the free passage to commercial ships and regulates the passage of warships.


Epic waste of money on nothing and corruption. What else can be said.
#15166145
Istanbuller wrote:There is no construction. Why are you people spreading misinformation?


Because even plans to build a Bosphorus 2.0 while probably dismantling the 1.0 versions while ignoring all international law regarding it is a huge deal. Wars have been fought before those international norms were created and started working.

Plus it is an epic waste of money and corruption if it happens. Turkish economy is already not feeling well in the first place.
#15166346
JohnRawls wrote:Because even plans to build a Bosphorus 2.0 while probably dismantling the 1.0 versions while ignoring all international law regarding it is a huge deal. Wars have been fought before those international norms were created and started working.

Plus it is an epic waste of money and corruption if it happens. Turkish economy is already not feeling well in the first place.

You haven't explained how building a canal would involve corruption.
#15166351
Suchard wrote:You haven't explained how building a canal would involve corruption.


What is there to explain? This is exactly how corruption works :| You build a useless project so you can steal money. This is just a bigger version of it. For example, road constantly getting fixed when they are already fixed and in good shape. If you are from the European Union, you should understand that example pretty well. (Well depending on the place you live i guess)
#15166532
JohnRawls wrote:What is there to explain? This is exactly how corruption works :| You build a useless project so you can steal money. This is just a bigger version of it. For example, road constantly getting fixed when they are already fixed and in good shape. If you are from the European Union, you should understand that example pretty well. (Well depending on the place you live i guess)

There was some financial peculiarities in the last conservative government of Spain. The socialists are in control now and the courts are dealing with the matter. In a democracy like the countries of the European Union with a couple of exceptions such as Hungary and Poland, the truth gets exposed. Yet, I have not heard of this happening in Turkey and you did not present a link.
#15166535
Suchard wrote:There was some financial peculiarities in the last conservative government of Spain. The socialists are in control now and the courts are dealing with the matter. In a democracy like the countries of the European Union with a couple of exceptions such as Hungary and Poland, the truth gets exposed. Yet, I have not heard of this happening in Turkey and you did not present a link.


In a thread in which Turkey has imprisoned those criticising her, you are "asking for evidence of corruption". :roll:

You are way off-topic and with clear intent on simply changing the topic from what I can tell.

Turkey is building a new canal so that she can bypass the Montreux Convention, are you aware of this convention?

The people who criticised the government are now in prison.

The Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits is a 1936 agreement that gives Turkey control over the Bosporus and Dardanelles straits and regulates the transit of naval warships. The Convention guarantees the free passage of civilian vessels in peacetime, and restricts the passage of naval ships not belonging to Black Sea states. The terms of the Convention have been a source of controversy over the years, most notably about the Soviet Union's military access to the Mediterranean Sea.

Signed on 20 July 1936 at the Montreux Palace in Switzerland,[1] the Convention permitted Turkey to remilitarise the Straits. It went into effect on 9 November 1936 and was registered in the League of Nations Treaty Series on 11 December 1936.[2] It remains in force.

The 21st-century Kanal Istanbul (Istanbul Canal) project, currently under construction, may be a possible bypass to the Montreux Convention


What is your opinion on Turkey bypassing the Montreux convention and on imprisoning those who asked her to commit the new canal to the Convention?
#15166567
noemon wrote:In a thread in which Turkey has imprisoned those criticising her, you are "asking for evidence of corruption". :roll:

You are way off-topic and with clear intent on simply changing the topic from what I can tell.

Turkey is building a new canal so that she can bypass the Montreux Convention, are you aware of this convention?

The people who criticised the government are now in prison.



What is your opinion on Turkey bypassing the Montreux convention and on imprisoning those who asked her to commit the new canal to the Convention?

A government like Turkey's which might be repressing its citizens cannot be equated with corruption. A police state can keep the people under the boot but that is not corruption.
#15166595
Suchard wrote:A government like Turkey's which might be repressing its citizens cannot be equated with corruption. A police state can keep the people under the boot but that is not corruption.

The primary reason to suppress journalism has always been to hide incompetence and corruption in one form or the other.
#15166859
Suchard wrote:I'm inclined to disagree on the grounds that autocratic governments, like NATO member Turkey, repress their citizens in order to stay in power.


To stay in power you supress your citizens so they won't complain about corruption or incompetence. It is literally the same thing.

The difference between Europe and Russia or Europe and Turkey is that in Europe rule of law exists not just on paper, same thing goes for freedom of speech or election rights. On paper Russia, European countries and Turkey are very similar. In practice, they are not. This is both corruption and incompetence at the same time.
#15167733
JohnRawls wrote:To stay in power you supress your citizens so they won't complain about corruption or incompetence. It is literally the same thing.

The difference between Europe and Russia or Europe and Turkey is that in Europe rule of law exists not just on paper, same thing goes for freedom of speech or election rights. On paper Russia, European countries and Turkey are very similar. In practice, they are not. This is both corruption and incompetence at the same time.

Autocratic governments fear not only criticism of corruption but any criticism.
#15167738
Suchard wrote:Autocratic governments fear not only criticism of corruption but any criticism.


Criticism without substance or subjective perspective is irrelevant. Dictators rarely bann criticism that has no substance or subjective perspective because it just clogs overall information available to people. It benefits them.
#15167840
Istanbuller wrote:Your source is misleading. Those retired generals tried to intervene to policies of the government. They published it during midnight like a declaration of coup. This kind of anti democratic actions against elected policirians should not be tolerated. It is politicians' job to discuss these matters, not generals

One thing is nice about these coup threats. It makes Erdoğan further popular. Voters easily make up their minds and stand with Erdoğan. :lol:


If people are on Ergogan's side, why should those who dissent be imprisoned. In a true democracy, expression of opinion is free. The voters listen to different opinions and elect the person who will lead the country. Erdogan is obstructing this process, so Edogan is anti-democratic. Erdogan does not want democracy, he wants power. That is why he puts in prison anyone who does not support him. Of course, this would only be interesting if the Turkish people wanted to live in a democracy. That may not be the case.
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