Uighur treatment by China amounts to 'Genocide' says formal legal text - Page 23 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15163734
So China finalized and passed its Patriot act for Hong Kong. This is the de facto end of HK sovereigty and probably the last nail in the one country two systems approach. Not only has China violated international agreements with this but also destroyed democracy in HK and basically installed a one party system in HK. :knife:

I guess this is the end of HK prosperity and financial markets. Rule of law will slowly erode with this and corruption will rise. A sad day for HK.
#15163736
Fasces wrote:That's when the Japanese institute that made these graphs cut it off. I haven't heard of any bans on foreigners leaving China, or reduced migration - can you provide a source for them? I myself arrived in China in late 2015, and in my experience the number of foreigners has been increasing, especially from Africa or South America.


https://thediplomat.com/2020/05/no-reme ... m-leaving/

https://www.lawfareblog.com/no-exit-chi ... tional-law

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... 269191001/

https://www.afr.com/world/asia/china-st ... 129-h18jkh

These are some articles that I got through google but I have been seeing them more and more starting from around late-mid 2015 if i remember correctly.
#15163741
Frigidweirdo wrote:The number of women being sterilized is something WE DON'T KNOW. We can guess. But we don't know. And we have to accept that. That doesn't mean China is better because we can't prove something. It just is a simple fact that we can't prove something, and we shouldn't accept something we don't know as fact.


We do know that China placed 328k IUD devices to women in Xinjiang and permanently sterilised another 60 thousand women in Xinjiang in a single year in 2017.

We also know that this has been going on since at least 2017 and earlier.

IUD devices can only be removed by state authorities and are the first step to permanent sterilisation.

We also know that China detains Uyghurs on a whim without a trial and "re-educates" them out of their ethnic-identity.
#15163747
Chinese and pro-Chinese trolls have now abandoned the argument on the factuality of the genocide as the evidence is way too overwhelming and the focus now is on the "meta-analysis of the narrative".

Americans said it so it's American propaganda. Only proof you need is that "Americans said it".

Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.

Uyghurs be damned, Tibetans be damned, Cantonese be damned.
#15163751
JohnRawls wrote:So China finalized and passed its Patriot act for Hong Kong. This is the de facto end of HK sovereigty and probably the last nail in the one country two systems approach. Not only has China violated international agreements with this but also destroyed democracy in HK and basically installed a one party system in HK. :knife:

I guess this is the end of HK prosperity and financial markets. Rule of law will slowly erode with this and corruption will rise. A sad day for HK.


One party system is a stretch, but they effectively revert to a state back in 1997-98, when the entire legislature was pro-Beijing dominated, with only nominal presence of others.

It is harsher this time in the sense that whoever participating in the "election" would probably be seen as traitors to Hong Kong people, but this will create a serious dilemna in the likes of the Hong Kong Democratic Party, as without seats they would not be able to survive.
#15163752
Patrickov wrote:One party system is a stretch, but they effectively revert to a state back in 1997-98, when the entire legislature was pro-Beijing dominated, with only nominal presence of others.

It is harsher this time in the sense that whoever participating in the "election" would probably be seen as traitors to Hong Kong people, but this will create a serious dilemna in the likes of the Hong Kong Democratic Party, as without seats they would not be able to survive.


That is what a one party system looks like. You remove all other parties ability to participate. For example, Russia is also a one party system although there are several parties in the parliament, just those parties are sattelites and vote in unison with the Putins party. They are "pretend" opposition.
#15163753
JohnRawls wrote:That is what a one party system looks like. You remove all other parties ability to participate. For example, Russia is also a one party system although there are several parties in the parliament, just those parties are sattelites and vote in unison with the Putins party. They are "pretend" opposition.


Actually not satellites for the case of Hong Kong. The largest ones are similar in size with each other. I expect two most hardline parties to lead in similar numbers, so in some sense an extremely bad form of United States two-party system.
#15163755
Patrickov wrote:Actually not satellites for the case of Hong Kong. The largest ones are similar in size with each other. I expect two most hardline parties to lead in similar numbers, so in some sense an extremely bad form of United States two-party system.


The opposition parties in Russian parties are sattelites because they are not independant. If United Russia and Putin tells them to vote for something then they will vote for it simply because the alternative is FSB coming to visit you and taking away your money or going to jail for corruption etc. They are the so called "controlled" opposition. This seems to be similar to what China wants to achieve in Hong Kong.

The reality of such system is that it is not efficient and spreads corruption while destroying the rule of law. You simply can't have controlled opposition and rule of law/fight corruption at the same time. Two things are mutually exclusive. The reason for that is the methods such system is achieved by. The person who appoints or controls will intentionally appoint people who he has leverage on in a form of blackmail for corruption or who is less competent and is not a threat and so on. Both corruption and incompetence spreads more corruption like a perpetual growing organism. And to hide that corruption, the legal system and the police need to be subverted.
#15163756
JohnRawls wrote:The opposition parties in Russian parties are sattelites because they are not independant. If United Russia and Putin tells them to vote for something then they will vote for it simply because the alternative is FSB coming to visit you and taking away your money or going to jail for corruption etc. They are the so called "controlled" opposition. This seems to be similar to what China wants to achieve in Hong Kong.

The reality of such system is that it is not efficient and spreads corruption while destroying the rule of law. You simply can't have controlled opposition and rule of law/fight corruption at the same time. Two things are mutually exclusive. The reason for that is the methods such system is achieved by. The person who appoints or controls will intentionally appoint people who he has leverage on in a form of blackmail for corruption or who is less competent and is not a threat and so on. Both corruption and incompetence spreads more corruption like a perpetual growing organism. And to hide that corruption, the legal system and the police need to be subverted.


Chinese are incapable to handle uncontrolled situations to begin with, which is why they fear opposition so much.
#15163757
Patrickov wrote:Chinese are incapable to handle uncontrolled situations to begin with, which is why they fear opposition so much.


Well, the motivation of the mainland Chinese might be a bit more complicated then just that but still. The whole situation is particularly bad for HK because the financial system and sector of HK relies on rule of law to exist. This is one ethereal not so ethereal concept that exists within the realm of economics and most people disregard as non-important while it is massively important short, medium and long term. If the legal certainty collapses then doing finances becomes impossible while doing business becomes just very hard.
#15163758
JohnRawls wrote:Well, the motivation of the mainland Chinese might be a bit more complicated then just that but still. The whole situation is particularly bad for HK because the financial system and sector of HK relies on rule of law to exist. This is one ethereal not so ethereal concept that exists within the realm of economics and most people disregard as non-important while it is massively important short, medium and long term. If the legal certainty collapses then doing finances becomes impossible while doing business becomes just very hard.


Of course I know that, the problem is those fucking Chinese don't fucking care and no one can fucking beat the shit out of them!
#15163759
Patrickov wrote:Of course I know that, the problem is those fucking Chinese don't fucking care and no one can fucking beat the shit out of them!


You can use it as ammunition to get rid of them though so if HK wants to resist then simply researching and exposing that corruption should undermine or destroy the mainlanders grip on HK. I doubt the police and rule of law has deteriorated to Putinist levels yet in HK.
#15163764
Rancid wrote:My question wasn't about me. I'm asking YOU a question.

Do you don't care that Muslims are being mistreated?

Because If I do, you will have a reason to kill millions of Chinese people in one of your wars?

Isn't it better to "not answer a trick question" if the question is might be used to justify mass murder and racism against a newly-developed nation?

All life should be cared for, if you are human. Not just the amazing lives of those fabulous rich people that feed you money.

Image
#15163771
QatzelOk wrote:Because If I do, you will have a reason to kill millions of Chinese people in one of your wars?


Why are you throwing around all these accusations at me? You clearly do not understand my position, and this is not the point here.

You are deflecting the question because I'm putting a mirror in your face, and you do not like what you see.

Do you think the mistreatment of these people is unacceptable? Yes, or No.
#15163927
It is absurd and ironic that Western states which destroyed Afghanistan with war crimes and crimes against humanity have the brass neck to censure China over non-existent crimes in its own region of Xinjiang. And especially regarding China’s internal affairs with its Uyghur people, some of whom have been radicalized by terrorism stemming from Western mass-murder in Afghanistan.
#15163928
Western states have absolutely nothing to do with China mass sterilising Uyghur women & throwing people in special camps without trial.

When the US committed crimes in the Middle-east this forum(as well as American people) held them to account, and the same goes for China.

When did you Russianbear hold your government into account?

It is quite rich indeed, that people who do not have the right to hold their government into account are lecturing those who do on whether they can call out a genocide or not.
#15166117
JohnRawls wrote:https://thediplomat.com/2020/05/no-remedy-no-rights-china-blocks-foreigners-from-leaving/

https://www.lawfareblog.com/no-exit-chi ... tional-law

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... 269191001/

https://www.afr.com/world/asia/china-st ... 129-h18jkh

These are some articles that I got through google but I have been seeing them more and more starting from around late-mid 2015 if i remember correctly.


These all focus on Westerners and exit bans (which are issued for people with a legal dispute, which doesn't seem particularly totalitarian), which I don't see the relation with immigration.

I really don't like this tendency of people from Europe/NA thinking that the "world" is synonymous with "EU/NA". A lot of my expat friends here are from places like Ethiopia, Cameroon, Colombia, Rwanda, Pakistan, or Cambodia - about half. The other half are a hodgepodge of European, Korean, Mexican, British, or American.
#15166146
Fasces wrote:These all focus on Westerners and exit bans (which are issued for people with a legal dispute, which doesn't seem particularly totalitarian), which I don't see the relation with immigration.

I really don't like this tendency of people from Europe/NA thinking that the "world" is synonymous with "EU/NA". A lot of my expat friends here are from places like Ethiopia, Cameroon, Colombia, Rwanda, Pakistan, or Cambodia - about half. The other half are a hodgepodge of European, Korean, Mexican, British, or American.


It is expected that Europeans or Americans will read news about European or Americans. This is simply a case of paying more attention to your own kind of thing. I am not sure how this tendency can be liked or disliked since it is an expected outcome aka the chance of me watching news or hearing news about Europe or its people are much higher compared to news about Africa or Asia etc :eh:
#15166163
JohnRawls wrote:It is expected that Europeans or Americans will read news about European or Americans. This is simply a case of paying more attention to your own kind of thing. I am not sure how this tendency can be liked or disliked since it is an expected outcome aka the chance of me watching news or hearing news about Europe or its people are much higher compared to news about Africa or Asia etc :eh:


We're talking about immigration into China, not just Western immigration into China. It feels fair to consider the big picture - China is building a parallel global order, and it is an enticing destination to the 6,000,000,000 individuals that don't live in the West.
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