Uighur treatment by China amounts to 'Genocide' says formal legal text - Page 24 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15166165
Fasces wrote:We're talking about immigration into China, not just Western immigration into China. It feels fair to consider the big picture - China is building a parallel global order, and it is an enticing destination to the 6,000,000,000 individuals that don't live in the West.


Okay, Europe and US is already that. What is your point?
#15166174
Fasces wrote:...China is building a parallel global order, and it is an enticing destination to the 6,000,000,000 individuals that don't live in the West.

Not only do these 6 billion humans "NOT live in the West," these people - who live in Zone B - don't have the same interests in following the orders of Western oligarchs.

So they have very little real interest in interacting with our oligarch's propaganda.

For Western citizens, interacting with our oligarchs' propaganda is a way of motivating us to commit atrocities - so it at least has a function in Zone A (the countries that cooperate with the USA in pillaging Zone B).
#15166232
Fasces wrote:What's yours? You're the one that implied China wasn't a desirable destination for immigration (and, consequently, that this is evidence that the West is better than China).


My point was that China blocks exit increasing more as of late. Which triggered westerner outflow from China to a large degree along with XI repressive measures and nationalism.
#15166319
Deutschmania wrote:It's already been happening . People from around the world are now residing in the PRC .


Perhaps its time for me to apply for asylum in China.

Anyway, there's something not compatible here. As the CCP wants a national monoculture. You can't really have that when a bunch of immigrants.

Doubtful they would accept millions upon millions upon millions of immigrants from around the world.
#15166376
Rancid wrote:As the CCP wants a national monoculture. You can't really have that when a bunch of immigrants.

You are using "the Americas" as some kind of ideal for China to follow. How tone-deaf.

In the Americas, it was felt that you "couldn't have a natural monoculture" if you left a single First Nations standing. Think about the "monoculture" that is there now - commercial crap in every direction and the "national monoculture" isn't really one. It's just the result of television propaganda and non-stop war.

Doubtful they would accept millions upon millions upon millions of immigrants from around the world.

China doesn't need to bring in foreign mercenaries to kill off the First Nations, the way that European colonies in the Americas did. And because of this, China is not addicted to an inflow of cheap labor either. It uses its own people, instead of "killing them off."
#15166438
Rancid wrote:ok bro, the CCP aren't a bunch of ultra-nationalists. got it.


After reading a bit of history, I think the CCP wants Han supremacy (i.e. they do not care if others come and live there as long as they run things), but this is not because they are communist or the government. It is because they are Han. But this is a secondary priority in the west of China.

If we assume that the China are in fact targeting Uighurs, which is perfectly plausible, it seems that they are doing so as a way of asserting economic control over the west of China. They want to get rid of any Uyghur land claims because that region seems to have become part of China only recently.

This is my understanding as someone who is only beginning to research this, so there is a reasonable possibility that I am completely wrong.
#15166465
Pants-of-dog wrote:After reading a bit of history, I think the CCP wants Han supremacy (i.e. they do not care if others come and live there as long as they run things), but this is not because they are communist or the government. It is because they are Han. But this is a secondary priority in the west of China.

If we assume that the China are in fact targeting Uighurs, which is perfectly plausible, it seems that they are doing so as a way of asserting economic control over the west of China. They want to get rid of any Uyghur land claims because that region seems to have become part of China only recently.

This is my understanding as someone who is only beginning to research this, so there is a reasonable possibility that I am completely wrong.


This is more of WHY it is happening. Although I do agree that the HAN mainland component is the worst to blame for this, you can't ignore the communist monoculture component. This is something that is hard to explain for a person who didn't live under a communist regime in an easy way but I will try.

One of the ways communism achieves "harmony" for lack of a better word is by supplanting nationalist and other ideological tendencies by the ideals of the new perfect being or era. This idea is multicultural but it is multicultural only to people who are part of this idea while the rest are untermensh who do not support it. In the Soviet Union it was something along the lines of the idea of the new Soviet man and cults of personality and so on. In China it takes a similar kind of form but leads to this racist/genocidal outcome.

What most people don't understand is that this process is very negative for the society as a whole and is only a short time fix. If you listen to a lot of politicians and administrators from late USSR and early independance of Russia, you notice them saying all the time that everyone thought that nationalism was "fixed" because of this and there are no conflicts based on national questions. The reality was much, much sobering when they started lifting the censorship on freedom of speech and economy then those problems resurfaced again. The problem never went away, it was merely supressed by force and even after 80 years under people like Stalin or Lenin, the problem still existed.
#15166470
@JohnRawls

China does display clear nationalist tendencies though. It seems to be more nationalist than Canada, for example. And Canada is engaged in similar practices against the Indigenous people living here. All that to say that nationalism is not a necessary component of this sort of racism and genocide.

Another contrast that we can see from the comparison with Canada is that this sort of genocide is also found in capitalism, so I find it is not necessary to be communist in order to do this.

The one thing that is common with Canada and China is the financial incentive of resource control.
#15166501
Pants-of-dog wrote:@JohnRawls

China does display clear nationalist tendencies though. It seems to be more nationalist than Canada, for example. And Canada is engaged in similar practices against the Indigenous people living here. All that to say that nationalism is not a necessary component of this sort of racism and genocide.

Another contrast that we can see from the comparison with Canada is that this sort of genocide is also found in capitalism, so I find it is not necessary to be communist in order to do this.

The one thing that is common with Canada and China is the financial incentive of resource control.


Sorry but show me the camps where Canada is putting its indigenous population please for forced sterelization and re-education. If you can't do that then Canada is not doing the same thing.
#15166508
JohnRawls wrote:Sorry but show me the camps where Canada is putting its indigenous population please for forced sterelization and re-education. If you can't do that then Canada is not doing the same thing.


https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/ ... al-schools

https://www.amnesty.ca/our-work/issues/ ... ut-consent

And these are not the only ongoing issues, but the topic is not Canada. In this thread, it is only useful as a tool to understand why the Chinese government is (plausibly) doing so.
#15166515
Pants-of-dog wrote:https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/residential-schools


your source wrote:The last residential school closed in 1996. Since then, former students have demanded recognition and restitution, resulting in the Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement in 2007 and a formal public apology by Prime Minister Stephen Harper in 2008. In total, an estimated 150,000 First Nation, Inuit, and Métis children attended residential schools.


Are you saying that China should:

1) stop brainwashing Uyghurs and sterilising their women like Canada has already done?
2) apologise to the Uyghurs like Canada has done to its own indigenous communities?
3) offer them restitution and compensation like Canada has already done?

In this thread, it is only useful as a tool to understand why the Chinese government is (plausibly) doing so.


Why?
#15166563
Rancid wrote:ok bro, the CCP aren't a bunch of ultra-nationalists. got it.


The CCP does not promote Han supremacy in any identifiable way. They do promote a Chinese identity, but this identity is inclusive of 56 ethnic groups, and they promote immigration into China, especially foreign workers and students - despite often drawing ire from the Chinese Weibo public.

noemon wrote:China a country that contains 1.4 billion people and covers an area 2.5 bigger than all of the EU is composed of 95% ethnic Han, but "it is not a totalitarian national monoculture".


This is so disingenuous I don't even know where to begin.

Do we start with the European conception of ethnicity that isn't found in the mindsets of the average East Asian? Mind you, 'Han' is a very inclusive and very vague label that doesn't really mean anything.

Do we start with the fact that historical immigration to the West is the product of colonialism, and mass economic migration in the present - the former of which cannot be applied to China, and the latter of which is a current trend?

The complete lack of evidence for any of these claims, except in some nebulous vague cloud of "common sense and commonly known" that leads all the commentators on PoFo with no understanding of Chinese, no close connection to China, and no experience with Chinese culture to authoritatively state absurd 'facts' about how Chinese think, and conceive of themselves?
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