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#15166425
Tainari88 wrote:
I hate it. The USA instigates it. Russia is run by hard right mafia style immoral people.



After the fall of the USSR, the West spent hundreds of millions trying to help. You can easily make an argument that we should have spent billions, not millions. But we did try to help. I know a lawyer that went to Russia to try and tell them how Rule of Law works. It didn't take.

Russian history and culture gave us Putin. Former KGB, paranoid, corrupt, we didn't start this.
#15166429
ingliz wrote:How does that stop Ukraine from signing a trade agreement with the EU?


For people actually interested on the details of the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement, please visit the relevant wiki page:

Implementation Schedule wrote:
In trilateral talks in early September 2014, the European Commission, the Government of Ukraine and Russia agreed on deferring the provisional implementation of the agreement until the end of 2015. "We have agreed to postpone the application until December 31 next year," said EU - Trade Commissioner Karel De Gucht on 12 September 2014 in Brussels at the end of talks with Alexey Ulyukaev, the Russian Minister of Economic Affairs, and Pavlo Klimkin, Foreign Minister of Ukraine. According to Interfax, the President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko had advocated this decision. Pavlo Klimkin stated Ukraine would also benefit from the postponement: "This is a very important decision and we are very grateful to the EU for offering a privileged access to the European market. This allows our companies to prepare for the further liberalization of trade."[226] The approval of the EU countries is still pending. The unilateral trade facilitation - the abolition of import duties in the EU - will remain in force - on the condition of the approval of the EU Council of Ministers. Tariffs on EU products exported into Ukraine persist.

In the background, there are Russia's concerns about negative effects on the Russian economy, should EU-products get into the Russian market through Ukraine. Therefore, the Russian government had announced new tariffs on Ukrainian products if, as planned, the Association Agreement entered into force as planned on 1 November 2014. The damage to the Russian economy by eliminating import tariffs in Ukraine is estimated to amount to 2 billion dollars by the Russian side.[227] On 1 September 2014, Russia had put forward a list of 2370 change requests concerning the consequences for the Russian-Ukrainian trade. The list had been requested by Karel de Gucht on 11 July 2014. According to the German newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung there was growing belief in Brussels that "the economic ties between Moscow and Kyiv can not be ignored." Before entering into force, "thousands of exceptions are to be agreed on", informs the Süddeutsche Zeitung, referring to sources in Brussels.[228]
#15166439
noemon wrote:please visit the relevant wiki page

Unresponsive.

Russia is well within its rights to impose tariffs; the EU levies them on third countries - What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.


:)
#15166443
Most of you seem to regard it as another ‘proxy war’ between Russia and the U.S., while Ukraine as another banana republic. As it was in the good old days… You are wrong.
Ukraine was quite a developed and industrialized country with lots of wealthy ‘oligarchs’ before 2014. So their interests should have been and still should be taken into account. This ‘third party’ has learned how to tack and how to exploit this conflict.
Akhmetov is just an example:
  1. He ranked among the Top 100 richest people in the world and the richest man in Ukraine back in 2014.
  2. His home town is Donetsk. The whole Donetsk region (DNR now) was in his full possession. The Donetsk region was the most industrialized region of Ukraine.
  3. President Yanukovich was the creature of this Donetsk group.
  4. When Yanukovich was dismissed during the ‘revolution’ in 2014, Akhmetov tried to regain the control.
  5. So what was the first region he tried to keep under control? Yes, the Donetsk region (surprise!).
  6. So until circa july-august 2014 no one controlled it except his paramilitary groups, which ‘defended’ his assets from both Ukrainian paramilitary and military forces and Russian paramilitary ones. Once again, surprise!
  7. Until circa 2017 the region with all the assets remained mainly under his control. And the ‘republican’ economics of DNR was by 95% dependent on those assets. Surprise!
  8. Now, where has he been all this time? He is still living his extra luxury life near Kiev. He has never been labeled as an ‘enemy’, ‘traitor’, etc, like many others in Ukraine were. He is still the richest and most powerful oligarch in Ukraine.
    So when funny 'President' Zelensky says ‘We want more money!’ to CNN (just yesterday), it is not his but mostly Akhmetov’s demand.

Yes, the two Ukrainian republics are quite expensive to support for Russia. But the other Ukraine will be dozens of times more expensive for anyone (for you, dear tax payers). The U.S. democrats have already got their hands dirty. But they still do not know what they are stepping into)))

This is quite an uncomfortable truth for all and any parties to the conflict, so mostly it is hushed up by all)))
#15166463
noemon wrote:You're projecting, the answer to your question is in the post you ignored.

Not in the piece you quoted.

From what you quoted, it appears the EU wanted Ukraine to keep the Russian trade agreement, which Russia refused to keep, if an EU agreement was signed.

Russia has the right to repudiate an agreement with Ukraine if circumstances change; the EU changed its agreement with the UK after Brexit changed trading conditions.


:)
Last edited by ingliz on 14 Apr 2021 11:09, edited 2 times in total.
#15166464
ingliz wrote:Not in the piece you quoted.

From what you quoted, it appears the EU wants Ukraine to keep its Russian trade agreement that Russia refused to keep if an EU agreement is signed.

Russia is well within its rights to repudiate its agreement with Ukraine if circumstances were to change: the EU changed its agreement with the UK after Brexit changed trading conditions.


You asked:

ingliz wrote:How does that stop Ukraine from signing a trade agreement with the EU?


You received the answer:

Implementation Schedule wrote:
In trilateral talks in early September 2014, the European Commission, the Government of Ukraine and Russia agreed on deferring the provisional implementation of the agreement until the end of 2015. "We have agreed to postpone the application until December 31 next year," said EU - Trade Commissioner Karel De Gucht on 12 September 2014 in Brussels at the end of talks with Alexey Ulyukaev, the Russian Minister of Economic Affairs, and Pavlo Klimkin, Foreign Minister of Ukraine. According to Interfax, the President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko had advocated this decision. Pavlo Klimkin stated Ukraine would also benefit from the postponement: "This is a very important decision and we are very grateful to the EU for offering a privileged access to the European market. This allows our companies to prepare for the further liberalization of trade."[226] The approval of the EU countries is still pending. The unilateral trade facilitation - the abolition of import duties in the EU - will remain in force - on the condition of the approval of the EU Council of Ministers. Tariffs on EU products exported into Ukraine persist.

In the background, there are Russia's concerns about negative effects on the Russian economy, should EU-products get into the Russian market through Ukraine. Therefore, the Russian government had announced new tariffs on Ukrainian products if, as planned, the Association Agreement entered into force as planned on 1 November 2014. The damage to the Russian economy by eliminating import tariffs in Ukraine is estimated to amount to 2 billion dollars by the Russian side.[227] On 1 September 2014, Russia had put forward a list of 2370 change requests concerning the consequences for the Russian-Ukrainian trade. The list had been requested by Karel de Gucht on 11 July 2014. According to the German newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung there was growing belief in Brussels that "the economic ties between Moscow and Kyiv can not be ignored." Before entering into force, "thousands of exceptions are to be agreed on", informs the Süddeutsche Zeitung, referring to sources in Brussels.[228]


As stated in my original post the answer is for the general public as I was certain a troll would not accept it and sure enough, that was proven true as well.
#15166466
late wrote:After the fall of the USSR, the West spent hundreds of millions trying to help. You can easily make an argument that we should have spent billions, not millions. But we did try to help. I know a lawyer that went to Russia to try and tell them how Rule of Law works. It didn't take.

Russian history and culture gave us Putin. Former KGB, paranoid, corrupt, we didn't start this.


Look @late I am in a column (political column) that is being abused to this very day by the USA's imperialism. Not the USSR's and not the Chinese's and not anyone but YOUR dumb ass ideas about invading PR, Guam, Marianas islands, Solomon islands and US Virgin Islands and if i told you how many fucked invasions the USA does playing this game of wanting to 'help'. You don't want to fucking help!! You want to control land that doesn't belong to you. Invade nations that have some resource you can't control because you have to respect sovereignty but your greedy capitalist shit system has the politicians by the BALLS and want to dictate to you what your 'helping' means. It means doing carrot bribe and forced bribes of corrupt selfish locals, and then stick when the local has to be a man and get some balls to stand up for his own nation and not some craven capitalist imperialists from some Hollywood manipulated press spewing lies about American imperialism. The local guy is not saying 'yes' to your 'fake help shit' and then when it goes wrong you pin some lie about the RED SCARE and how you have to go and invade to help. You wind up not liberating Puerto Rico from Spanish imperialism to impose your own style of imperialism. You invade Mexico to keep California and Nevada and Arizona, and etc and take half of their territories. You kill Native Americans to the tune of 98% and you continue to this very day to shoot and sit on black people's necks and have confederate flags and Q'Anon rioting the congress and threatening even assholes like Mike Pence with lynchings for not going along with some 3 million less voted in Trump due to some ancient anti democratic rules from the electoral college....

You got the gall to tell the Russian Mafia Man Putin that he should trust your HELP? From that FUCKING Lying Piece of Imperialistic craven capitalist paid off sellout piece of crap leadership you currently have in place over there?

Are you crazy??!

Not even the Latin Americans trust the USA's bullshit lying promises to HELP them. Do you think some Communists from the PRC and some ex KGB dude like Putin is going to trust your declarations of help? No one is that DUMB on planet Earth. Or that naive in world politics. What your type of leaders understand is bribing and killing. They are bankrupt of moral leadership. You have a nasty habit of shooting them in the head. Like Martin Luther King, Jr. Shoot him in the head mafia style then name a gov't holiday after them. A bunch of help....actions of HELP. Like leaving the Russians to solve their mafioso leaders on their own. Go and clean up your toxic waste that killed my mother because the USA had to go and kill off Puerto Ricans and experiment on them first before they go to Iraq to create civil wars and open up Hussein's Abu G.....prison of torture and the Middle Eastern people got to see how good the USA is trying to HELP!!

The Mexicans would say....A LA CHINGADA CON ESO!! :peace: >:
#15166467
noemon wrote:As stated...

Still waffling, I see.

Please explain why Russia was wrong to threaten tariffs when trading conditions were changing to the detriment of their economy?


:)
#15166469
@ingliz

Sure Russia is well within it's rights to impose tariffs but it is bad economic policy. Besides, what are the Russians afraid of? Are they afraid they can't compete with European companies and innovation? The Russians can't handle the competition or something? You guys don't have what it takes? Or is there another agenda behind those tariffs? I would welcome Russian companies to come over to the U.S. and do business here and I would not support tariffs on Russian companies. I would support free trade with Russian companies.

However, Russia has to be a good place to do business too though and that means the rule of law and protecting intellectual property rights of U.S. companies while doing business in Russia as well as not being a target for organized crime or corrupt politicians or corruptions in general. Russia has to be a good and safe place for business to do business. But if the Russians think they got what it takes to compete in the U.S. market I say let them come over and do business here in the U.S. Do Russian companies have what it takes to compete and thrive in the U.S. Are they afraid of fair and square competition?

The Estonians have produced an excellent software product known as Skype. Of course, U.S. companies have innovated and produced comparable software applications too. Can the Russians innovate and compete like the Estonians?

@late

Russia, aside from their own unique culture are by and large just like anybody else. They crave security and prosperity just like anybody. However, the shock therapy of the 1990s didn't give them the security and prosperity they needed. Hence, why dictators like Putin became appealing. This is the case in any country and the U.S. is no exception to the rule. It would have been better policy for the former Soviet states to slowly and gradually transition from a state owned planned economy to a more privately owned capitalist mixed economy.

However, that's not what happened. One day they were a state owned planned economy and the next day they are privately owned capitalist economy with serious consequences for the people. The Russians haven't lived under democracy and so are used to living under Tsars, or communist party dictatorships and now Putin.

But these dictators are appealing to them because democracy and the swift immediate transition to a privately owned capitalist economy didn't produce the immediate results the Russian people desired and needed. It's human nature to want instant gratification. But change to a better future is slow and not instant, so patience, along with good policy both in government and the economy is required. That is and was not easy for former Soviet states to achieve.
#15166471
ingliz wrote:Still waffling, I see.
Please explain why Russia was wrong to threaten tariffs when trading conditions were changing to the detriment of their economy?


Every time I answer to one question, you waffle away to another question.

Do you have a point to make? And if yes, what is it?

I did not say "Russia was right or wrong to impose tariffs on Ukraine" and have not made a statement either way, but if you think Russia was right or wrong then feel free to elaborate.
#15166473
noemon wrote:Do you have a point to make? And if yes, what is it?

The point I am making is you said, "Russia invaded Ukraine and is now illegally occupying parts of it to prevent Ukraine from signing a trade agreement with the EU that would enable the Ukrainian people to trade, work, and travel in the EU."

And then you offer nothing by way of backing that up.

All we've got is a quote where the EU is saying it wasn't in Ukraine's interest to sign if it meant losing the Russian trade agreement.


:)
#15166477
@Politics_Observer while the USA is hypocritical about its imperialism what you said here is bullshit. It is.
However, that's not what happened. One day they were a state owned planned economy and the next day they are privately owned capitalist economy with serious consequences for the people. The Russians haven't lived under democracy and so are used to living under Tsars, or communist party dictatorships and now Putin.


I got news for you Politics. The USA is not the only nation on Earth. It is not the nation with the longest recorded history or the most democratic system or even the highest standard of living on Earth, or the one with the best system in many ways. it is all MYTH.

I will never expect you to understand that. Because for you it is the nation you served in a military capacity.

But for me? It is an immoral lying piece of shit government. And neither the Dems or the Repukes ever were interested in justice. If given a chance? They would act like Putin or any tin pot dictating lying piece of shit oppressive pig government out there.

The little nations with no nuclear bombs present? All are open to invasions. The proof are never ending wars fought all the time and Afghanistan is going on what? 20 years. It doesn't matter if it is Obama or Trump, Bush or x or y. It only means the imperial dirt continues. Without resolution.

How are you going to be the light and the best way to the world by being liars about every single thing you say you represent. By denying what is in your face that is unjust?

You betray your own foundation you basically are going to go down for a dirt nap eventually.

But you are better than the Chinese and better than the Russians and the English speaking cultures are true civilizations while the Chinese are the Yellow Menace and the Russians are the Red Menace. The only ones that are true believers in simplistic shit thoughts like that? Are people who don't understand how complex the human race is. It is never that simple.

Mind your own damn business, save your money to fix your own domestic problems first before even attempting to deal with cultures you arrogantly want to control and profit off of but are too scared to invade because they got big fat NUKES in their land, and go and lick your wounds and heal for fifty years. Do some good and pull out of the wars and stop killing people off in uranium depleted war experiments because those little places have NO POWER in congress and are perfect to abuse.

Damn bullies and liars dictating to the rest of the world. Arrogant bastards!
#15166481
ingliz wrote:The point I am making is you said, "Russia invaded Ukraine and is now illegally occupying parts of it to prevent Ukraine from signing a trade agreement with the EU that would enable the Ukrainian people to trade, work, and travel in the EU."
And then you offer nothing by way of backing that up.


Russia invaded the Ukraine and is now illegally occupying parts of it to prevent Ukraine from signing a trade agreement with the EU that would enable the Ukrainian people to trade, work, and travel in the EU.

You have not said or argued anything to the contrary.

If you want to show otherwise, then try elaborating your case.

Ukraine-EU Association Agreement wrote:The political provisions of the treaty were signed on 21 March 2014 after a series of events that had stalled its ratification culminated in a revolution in Ukraine and overthrow of the then incumbent President of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych.[11] This ousting was sparked by Yanukovych's last-minute[12] refusal to sign the agreement. Russia, Ukraine's second largest trading partner, instead presented an association with the existing Customs Union of Russia, Belarus, and Kazakhstan as an alternative.[13][14] After 21 March 2014, matters relating to trade integration were temporarily set aside (awaiting the results of the 25 May 2014 Ukrainian presidential elections) until the European Union and the new Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko signed the economic part of the Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement on 27 June 2014,[2] and described this as Ukraine's "first but most decisive step" towards EU membership.[15] President of the European Council, Herman Van Rompuy, said at the signing ceremony: "In Kyiv and elsewhere, people gave their lives for this closer link to the European Union. We will not forget this."[88]


War in Donbass wrote:As the conflict escalated in May 2014, Russia employed a "hybrid approach", deploying a combination of disinformation tactics, irregular fighters, regular Russian troops, and conventional military support to destabilise the Donbas region.[34][35][36] According to the Ukrainian government, at the height of the conflict in the summer of 2014, Russian paramilitaries were reported to make up between 15% to 80% of the combatants.[33]

Ukraine launched a military counter-offensive against pro-Russian forces in April 2014, called the "Anti-Terrorist Operation" (ATO) from 2014 until 2018, when it was renamed the "Joint Forces Operation" (JFO).[37]:4[38] By late August 2014 this operation was able to vastly shrink the territory under the control of the pro-Russian forces, and came close to regaining control of the Russo-Ukrainian border.[39] In response, Russia abandoned its hybrid approach, and began a conventional invasion of the Donbas.[39][40] Between 22 and 25 August 2014, Russian artillery, personnel, and what Russia called a "humanitarian convoy" crossed the Ukraine-Russia border.
#15166482
@Tainari88

For me, America is my home and my country and I am very proud of it. I love America. To me it's the greatest country in the world and I would break out and sing "God Bless America." However, I don't expect everybody in the world to see my country the same way I see it. That's just not realistic.

Aside from that, my Puerto Rican friend whom I work with on my PHP project in my class currently says that most Puerto Ricans that want independence from the U.S. are from the more wealthier class of Puerto Ricans whose policies, given that they are the ones who would have all the power in Puerto Rico if independence were granted, would turn Puerto Rico into a feudal state where those same people wanting Puerto Rican independence get all the wealth and prosperity but nobody else (even if that is not necessarily their intent). Currently my good Puerto Rican friend has been promoted up to the high levels of the U.S. government and is an extraordinarily hard worker. I have tremendous respect for him. He is a very hard worker and a perfectionist. He says he learned to speak English in the U.S. Army.

But he went from being poor in Puerto Rico to being very well off today given he was promoted up due to his good work ethic after his service in the U.S. Army. The United States has treated him well and he and his family well off because of his hard work. But due to the information he has given me since I have become good friends with him, it sounds like there is an economic component behind the Puerto Rican independence movement that most people, with the exception of those from Puerto Rico, are unaware of.

But, that is for a different topic, not this topic. My Puerto Rican friend is very pro American and he votes republican. We are good friends even though I vote democrat. He also says a lot of people flee the Castro regime in Cuba and have been tortured and their businesses taken away from them simply for saying something a little bit critical of the Cuban communist regime.
#15166483
noemon wrote:the conflict escalated in May 2014 [...] Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko signed the economic part of the Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement on 27 June 2014

So it didn't stop them from signing an agreement with the EU?


:lol:
#15166488
noemon wrote:War in Donbass wrote:
As the conflict escalated in May 2014, Russia employed a "hybrid approach", deploying a combination of disinformation tactics, irregular fighters, regular Russian troops, and conventional military support to destabilise the Donbas region.[34][35][36] According to the Ukrainian government, at the height of the conflict in the summer of 2014, Russian paramilitaries were reported to make up between 15% to 80% of the combatants.[33]

Ukraine launched a military counter-offensive against pro-Russian forces in April 2014, called the "Anti-Terrorist Operation" (ATO) from 2014 until 2018, when it was renamed the "Joint Forces Operation" (JFO).[37]:4[38] By late August 2014 this operation was able to vastly shrink the territory under the control of the pro-Russian forces, and came close to regaining control of the Russo-Ukrainian border.[39] In response, Russia abandoned its hybrid approach, and began a conventional invasion of the Donbas.[39][40] Between 22 and 25 August 2014, Russian artillery, personnel, and what Russia called a "humanitarian convoy" crossed the Ukraine-Russia border.

It's not that simple at all. It all began as a war between oligarch clans in Ukraine. At the beginning they called it a 'revolution'. Then they called it a 'war'. But until july-august 2014 it mostly remained an internal conflict. Please, see my message above.
#15166509
Ivan_R wrote:It's not that simple at all. It all began as a war between oligarch clans in Ukraine. At the beginning they called it a 'revolution'. Then they called it a 'war'. But until july-august 2014 it mostly remained an internal conflict. Please, see my message above.


We all remember the events of 2014, it's not like we are talking ancient history. Yanukovych unexpectedly switched his position and opted not to ratify the Ukraine-EU agreement, the Ukrainian people outraged by his betrayal, ousted him and Russia invaded the Ukraine to prevent the ratification of the trade-agreement with the EU.

Several articles of the agreement remain inactive due to the ongoing war that Russia maintains to keep the Ukraine under its thumb.

Implementation Schedule wrote:
In trilateral talks in early September 2014, the European Commission, the Government of Ukraine and Russia agreed on deferring the provisional implementation of the agreement until the end of 2015. "We have agreed to postpone the application until December 31 next year," said EU - Trade Commissioner Karel De Gucht on 12 September 2014 in Brussels at the end of talks with Alexey Ulyukaev, the Russian Minister of Economic Affairs, and Pavlo Klimkin, Foreign Minister of Ukraine. According to Interfax, the President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko had advocated this decision. Pavlo Klimkin stated Ukraine would also benefit from the postponement: "This is a very important decision and we are very grateful to the EU for offering a privileged access to the European market. This allows our companies to prepare for the further liberalization of trade."[226] The approval of the EU countries is still pending. The unilateral trade facilitation - the abolition of import duties in the EU - will remain in force - on the condition of the approval of the EU Council of Ministers. Tariffs on EU products exported into Ukraine persist.

In the background, there are Russia's concerns about negative effects on the Russian economy, should EU-products get into the Russian market through Ukraine. Therefore, the Russian government had announced new tariffs on Ukrainian products if, as planned, the Association Agreement entered into force as planned on 1 November 2014. The damage to the Russian economy by eliminating import tariffs in Ukraine is estimated to amount to 2 billion dollars by the Russian side.[227] On 1 September 2014, Russia had put forward a list of 2370 change requests concerning the consequences for the Russian-Ukrainian trade. The list had been requested by Karel de Gucht on 11 July 2014. According to the German newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung there was growing belief in Brussels that "the economic ties between Moscow and Kyiv can not be ignored." Before entering into force, "thousands of exceptions are to be agreed on", informs the Süddeutsche Zeitung, referring to sources in Brussels.[228]


It's quite funny how trolls in here accuse the US for offering token diplomatic support to any country, while at the same time excusing the Russian invasion, terrorism and separatism as something "totally normal and rational". :roll:
#15166511
noemon wrote:
It's quite funny how trolls in here accuse the US for offering token diplomatic support to any country, while at the same time excusing the Russian invasion, terrorism and separatism as something "totally normal and rational".



That is an excellent point. Well done.
#15166514
noemon wrote:We all remember the events of 2014, it's not like we are talking ancient history. Yanukovych unexpectedly switched his position and opted not to ratify the Ukraine-EU agreement, the Ukrainian people outraged by his betrayal, ousted him and Russia invaded the Ukraine to prevent the ratification of the trade-agreement with the EU.

You might probably admit, our memory is not always perfect. There was a huge gap between your 'people outraged' and ''''Russia invaded''''. And that was an inner conflict between their clans.
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