Russian armor heading towards border with Ukraine - Page 11 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15166516
Ivan_R wrote:You might probably admit, our memory is not always perfect. There was a huge gap between your 'people outraged' and ''''Russia invaded''''. And that was an inner conflict between their clans.


There was no gap, euromaidan against Yanukovych started in late March, the war in Donbass by Russian-armed separatists started in April and by August Russia had made a full scale invasion into the Ukraine as her separatist forces had lost ground she sought to recover.
#15166521
noemon wrote:There was no gap, euromaidan against Yanukovych started in late March, the war in Donbass by Russian-armed separatists started in April and by August Russia had made a full scale invasion into the Ukraine as her separatist forces had lost ground she sought to recover.


Nope, Euromaidan started in November 21, 2013. And the '''Russian-armed separatists''' in Donbass were rather a media hype than a real threat in April. So from November 2013 till July-August 2014 that was a war of Ukrainian clans. Almost a year actually. All those local power brokers had their own paramilitary forces of all sorts.
#15166526
Ivan_R wrote:Nope, Euromaidan started in November 21, 2013. And the '''Russian-armed separatists''' in Donbass were rather a media hype than a real threat in April. So from November 2013 till July-August 2014 that was a war of Ukrainian clans. Almost a year actually. All those local power brokers had their own paramilitary forces of all sorts.


The War in Donbass initiated by Russian-armed rebels started in April 2014, right when Euromaidan was coming to an end in late March 2014.

Russia invaded into the Ukraine to help the Russian-armed rebels in July-August 2014 because they were losing ground.
#15166541
@Politics_Observer I am not your Republican buddy. Anyone who thinks Puerto Rico is currently doing well and got a great fair desl from a military invasion? Is foolish. Your buddy is foolish in political thought. You can think what you want to think. I hate imperialism. I don't care if it American, Russian, Chinese, English, French German, Dutch, Italian, Roman, the Ottomans, etc? It all leads to perdition and Hell on Earth to the pawns caught up in that bloody, greedy barbaric political position.

You can keep thinking things are great.

Empathy is the greatest form of intelligence. I wonder if people who give invasion orders ever have true empathy for the people they use, abuse and kill in the name of the glory of the empire they serve?

If people would consider for a moment? The people being wronged? Or do you lie thinking--we are good and they don't get how we did a good thing by making them do it our way.

Once you refuse to be empathetic? You lose your intelligence politically. And? Your reward sooner or later is defeat.
#15166544
@Tainari88

Tainari88 wrote: Your buddy is foolish in political thought.


Don't tell him that! :lol: I don't tell him I vote democrat, I keep that to myself given that I have to work with him and get along with him. But I think he is a good guy and a very hard worker. But he I agree with one point he makes: communism looks good on paper but when put to the test in the real world, it doesn't work. I agree with him there. I just think he is more hard core capitalist than I am. I believe in a happy balance of things.
#15166555
Politics_Observer wrote:@Tainari88



Don't tell him that! :lol: I don't tell him I vote democrat, I keep that to myself given that I have to work with him and get along with him. But I think he is a good guy and a very hard worker. But he I agree with one point he makes: communism looks good on paper but when put to the test in the real world, it doesn't work. I agree with him there. I just think he is more hard core capitalist than I am. I believe in a happy balance of things.


Well, the pro statehood party in Puerto Rico was founded in 1968 by a man named Luis A Ferre that did not have Puerto Rican roots. He was basically coming from a wealthy Cuban family and he was hand picked by American anti Puerto Rican sovereignty advocates in Washington DC. In fact that party was highly unpopular in Puerto Rico for decades.

Invite your friend to fight with me here about Puerto Rico. Most of the pro statehood people are ignorant about Puerto Rican history in politics, culture, and everything else. A bunch of brainwashed fools they are. Their party was the most corrupt in the history of the island and under that political column a bunch of them were sent to prison for corruption. Not a single Puerto Rican pro-independence politician was sent to federal prison for stealing the public purse. Not one. His party? A nest of rats of the worst sort. I am not some rich snob Puerto Rican. Most of the pro independence people are associated with the upper crust because most of them are intellectuals, professors, engineers, doctors, physicists and lawyers and they are highly educated people. And my particular family came from the poor people who through hard efforts educated themselves without having money. Scholarship winners all. So he can join PoFo and fight with hs foolish shit arguments with me about that topic. i have made a lot of threads on the entire history of it. It is not his version of how Yankee he is. He can get his thoughts challenged and I can bet that he doesn't know a damn thing about his own island's history. Those people rarely do. All of them never opened a book on anything that was not some American idiot telling them how grateful they must be to be part of an invasion and still not having a vote and yet go and die and bleed for the USA while if you live in Puerto Rico? No way you can vote ever. Because the Americans love justice? Kiss my ass!

No Puerto Rican pro-independence PIP member has ever been sent to prison for corruption and skimming funds illegally. His party is a dirtball party that I hate with fervor. So bring him here? Lol.

I am happy that the pro independence movement has grown substantially lately. Because the USA's bullshit brainwashing doesn't work as well. People see how many lies that crap is about nowadays. It will grow again. If the USA decides to invade us again and shoot us all in the head or bomb us from the sky with threats of "War on every Puerto Rican" like they did when Riggs was the police chief in San Juan? I am sure you will say we were in the wrong and America in the right.

I hate imperialism.

This is what they are reporting about Ukraine. Will it end in WWIII? I don't know. The USA is dumb if it doesn't realize that it better stop interfering in other nations' issues. Crimea was coveted by Hitler too for the same reasons as the rest. They wanted the oil and the resources and the infrastructure. When are all these interferences by all these Empires going to end? Let normal people go to work, and get a vaccination, send their kids to school, and help them with basic needs and help them with things that do make a difference.

War just creates death, destruction, trauma, and heartache. it doesn't do a damn thing to help the Earth, global warming problems, or social and economic depression. It is just a lose/lose proposition.

A summary of the issues with Ukraine and Russia conflict.
#15166568
@Tainari88

He says that most Puerto Ricans want the benefits of being a commonwealth where they don't pay taxes (I am assuming he is referring to federal taxes), but also want to be able to vote in U.S. elections. He said you can't have it both ways. He says he doesn't take a position on statehood and hasn't lived on "the island" for a long time given his time in the U.S. Army and then later on getting a job here in the United States after his discharge from the army. He regards himself as a Puerto Rican with American citizenship. So, he is obviously proud of his Puerto Rican roots. He has done very well for himself here stateside and it's easy for me to see why given his work ethic.
Last edited by Politics_Observer on 14 Apr 2021 02:01, edited 1 time in total.
#15166570
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin

There is a Russian community in Atlanta, Georgia close by where I live and they get along just fine with everybody. Should we give that community independence and let them live under the Russian government just because there is a Russian community there? I don't think so, and neither should the Ukrainians do so. It's the same concept. Russia itself recognized that as Ukrainian territory. Pure and simple. Now, all the sudden, out of the blue, they have decided that this territory somehow was there's all along when in fact those were international recognized borders that Russia itself agreed to and recognized prior to it's invasion of Ukraine.




I take it you have never heard of "Manifest Destiny"?

Your example does not do justice to my side of the argument. For starters your example has the Russian community in Georgia content and getting along with everyone. It will seem to me like our discussion assumes as a given that we are dealing with discontented populations that dont get along. If everyone was getting along then there wont be talk of independence, or even a need to hook up with military alliances.

And it is a matter of consistency. Lets say give two populations A and B. If one affirms that a disgruntled minority A, dominated by B is entitled to independence from B; it goes without saying that if the tables are turned, and it is a disgruntled minority B, dominated by A, then B should also be entitled to independence.

So far what I have been getting from your arguments is that A, a disgruntled minority under B is entitled to independence, but the reverse is not True.



If I were a Russian I will argue that mother Russia is simply borrowing from America's playbook. That it is just a case of Slavic Manifest Destiny
#15166573
ingliz wrote: All we've got is a quote where the EU is saying it wasn't in Ukraine's interest to sign if it meant losing the Russian trade agreement.


:)



I think I begin to recall with greater clarity the back and forth back then in 2014. The EU wanted Russia's cooperation in its intended seduction of Ukraine. Without the cuckold's cooperation, the seduced wife may lose much of the benefit derived from her poor husband; benefits which the rich seducer does not care to assume! So Russia should hold the low tariffs steady, keep on purchasing arms from Ukrainian factories, to ease EU's aquisition of Ukraine! And anyone wonders why Putin was irate?
#15166576
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin

That all being said, let's debunk some of the contentions that the members of the Russian government have made about NATO here with this article from the Center for European Policy Analysis, an excellent authoritative source. I have put in bold black italics the points from this authoritative source that support my assertions.




I will try to opine on portions of the article:

""""Moscow has manufactured a thick mist of disinformation about NATO in order to disguise its expansionist policies in Eastern Europe. Nonetheless, lurking behind this propaganda offensive is a genuine fear in the Kremlin that the North Atlantic alliance will thwart Kremlin ambitions and weaken the regime of Russian President Vladimir Putin."""


1. I dont get it how it is Russia engaged in expansionist policies in Eastern Europe when it is NATO that has expanded since the fall of the Soviet Union from the German borders to the Baltics. Looking at the maps I have difficulty seeing how Russia has expanded from its frontiers that much since 1991.

2. Of course the fear is genuine. Why should any nation not have genuine fear at the advance towards its frontiers of a decades old rival military alliance?

3. The advance of a rival military alliance will weaken any regime in Moscow, and it wont matter if that regime is communist, democratic or fascist.
#15166577
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin




"""Russia’s NATO myth-making can be debunked by examining the evidence. According to Moscow’s deceptions, Russia tried to join Western institutions during the 1990s but was rebuffed and ostracized. In reality, the Russian Federation has failed to meet the basic standards for either EU or NATO membership—whether in the rule of law, democratic governance or military reform–and its aggressive aspirations toward neighboring states counters the core principles of both multinational organizations."""


NATO is a US led alliance. Take the US out of the equation and NATO crumbles. Nato members and aspirants have to accept US primacy. That is exactly what makes a Russian fit inside Nato impossible. Russian past history as a rival does not allow for that mentality which will allow it to accept US primacy. A Russian integration into Nato will transform Nato into a two headed hydra: a US head and a Russian head. A disastruous situation. That is why the preferred policy will be a break up of the present Russian Federation and the acquisition of its bits and pieces.
#15166580
Politics_Observer wrote:@Tainari88

He says that most Puerto Ricans want the benefits of being a commonwealth where they don't pay taxes (I am assuming he is referring to federal taxes), but also want to be able to vote in U.S. elections. He said you can't have it both ways. He says he doesn't take a position on statehood and hasn't lived on "the island" for a long time given his time in the U.S. Army and then later on getting a job here in the United States after his discharge from the army. He regards himself as a Puerto Rican with American citizenship. So, he is obviously proud of his Puerto Rican roots. He has done very well for himself here stateside and it's easy for me to see why given his work ethic.


Everything you quoted is about lies the American media has spouted. Puerto Rico pays taxes galore but they are not federal taxes. They come from the merchant marine and the Jones Act. Established in 1920. Ley de cabotaje. The USA has sucked out billions from Puerto Rico, from 1898-2021. It has been over 120+ years of sucking out profits. He repeats false information. The USA doesn't become paupered by doing federal fund transfers to Puerto Rico. If Puerto Rico were a state of the union it would be receiving half of what the poorest and blackest (African American citizen state receives--the poorest state is Mississippi. Puerto Rico received half of Mississippi's benefits). They have huge amounts of enlisted men because they had high unemployment for many many decades. The most popular politician was Luis Munoz Rivera and his son Luis Munoz Marin. The founder of the PPD. Los Populares. Pro Autonomy advocates.

He doesn't know jack shit about Puerto Rican politics and will lose all the arguments. That doesn't surprise me at all Politics Observer. The people who leave to Georgia and become Republicans and identify as American in militarism and how wonderful they do? All of them think there is not a difference between them and the American citizens. If they are born on the island? We are statutory citizens Politics. Not the constitutionally guaranteed ones. Or the naturalized ones. That means if your buddy was born in Puerto Rico like I was? He can be stripped of his US citizenship by an act of Congress without an immigration hearing. it is a one-way street.

He won't know this at all. Why? It is all secrets. But a senator and some politicians did a tour of the island with the pro-statehood party there and he told them to their faces how limited their rights were as statutory USA citizens. They were mad as hornets. Do they discuss the worse deal the American Samoans get? No. All of it is a damn mystery because they are LIED to for years and years. Total lies.

All these empires come up with schemes to take over resources and lands that belong to other nations or governments. Why do they do this? Because of investments. Laws about capitalism and dominating raw materials, enlisted men and women, and so on.

if you study the history of former colonies and if they become part of nations who colonized them? Does it happen? Palau was a tiny island that belonged to the USA too...and it sought its independence from the USA. It happened in 1993. Former colonies of the USA do and can become independent. Does your buddy know this information? How former colonies in the United Nations Decolonization Committee negotiate these things?

He needs to come and argue. He is going to lose. I dedicated years and years and years of work on getting the lies and cover ups and false fronts uncovered. Puerto Rican politics are TOUGH as hell because the USA dirty lying ways in Latin America are long and massive.

The USA made enormous amounts of profit from the acquisitions during the Spanish American war. They acquired the last of the colonies left in the Americas belonging to Spain. Cuba, Puerto Rico, and Guam, and the Phillipines. They lost the Phillipines in 1946. They had issues with Cuba due to their bloody wars with the Spanish crown pre 1898 with Jose Marti. Lucky Luciano had the mafia investments in Havana for years.

The USA has an ugly Imperial history in the Caribbean islands and in Panama, Colombia, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, Venezuela, the Dominican Republic, and we could be here discussing the amount of HORROR they have visited on these tiny nations full of poverty stricken people of humble origins. Full of ex black slaves, enslaved Indians who survived the Spanish onslaught of diseases and problems only to find the American Manifest Destiny people full of greed and racism taking things by FORCE. Not asking. Not helping. Just a blood filled nightmare of ugliness. Helping rapacious corporations. After their long battles with the Spanish crown and the cortes de la corona espanola and their desperation to hold on to their slave nations.

I have no respect for their two faced shit history. No real democratic loving person would if you study it in depth.

Ukraine and Russia have a long history together and have fissures and disagreements, and hatreds. Mismanagement and horrors. But the Americans thought of Latin America as their personal backyard, and if Russia thinks Ukraine is their personal backyard...they CRY...."Foul!" Imperialism. You can't be some man screaming about morality in your damn underwear showing your lack of morality with your bullshit.

Focus on your own issues. You are close to having a fifty fifty split between Trump tin pot dictator Putin lover Republican traitors in your midst and some Neoliberal warmongering build up the wall to keep the immigrants out....and we hate the Bernie supporters only rightists passing as liberals when they are anything but.

The USA better stop interfering and get out of the pandemic in one piece. Because the Russian Bear and the Chinese Dragon? If those two authoritarian states decide to cooperate with coups and plots against the USA's weak and fractured domestic politics?

WWIII is just the beginning.
#15166581
@Juin

I don't agree with that. The U.S. and Russia do not have to be enemies nor does Russia have to crumble or disintegrate. However, those with a vested interest in staying in power (such as Putin) might want to keep the U.S. and Russia enemies because that's what helps keep them in power. The outside boogeyman distracts from domestic problems and focus it on an external enemy. But by and large, people are people wherever you go. You just have politicians who want to stay in power fucking it up for the average joe. That's a rule that applies everywhere.
#15166582
@Tainari88

I seriously doubt the U.S. will strip him of his citizenship. He works as a civil servant and is an American citizen. He holds a very high level position. He is also a veteran of the armed forces. He strikes me as very patriotic just as the Puerto Rican who served with me in Afghanistan. I have never been to "the island" so I really don't know the politics there. But I have talk to Puerto Ricans and you are the first I have run across who is pro-independence. Most Puerto Ricans by and large seem very patriotic and I like them. I think they are good people. You seem to be the "odd one out" when it comes to Puerto Ricans in comparison to the others I have met. You don't seem to be the run of the mill so to speak.

Most don't even talk about "the island" and are simply concerned about just living day to day life. The Puerto Rican I served with in Afghanistan says his family has a farm on "the island" but he is married to a white woman and is very happy here stateside. The Puerto Rican I served with in Afghanistan told me he tells some of the other Puerto Ricans to put the "black Puerto Rican flags away" which basically symbolizes taking up arms against the U.S. to achieve independence much like the black American flag symbolizes going into combat against American enemies. But he is very loyal to the U.S. And he is treated well by the U.S. government too given his service. The Puerto Rican I served with in Afghanistan seems familiar with the Puerto Rican independence movement but doesn't pay much attention to it and doesn't want to hear about it honestly speaking.
#15166584
@Tainari88

Some of the other Puerto Rican army veterans I have run across when shopping, they will tell me war stories about invasions of other countries they participated in while serving in the U.S. Army.These are guys you would love Tainari88, no doubt! :lol: But they have a few good funny war stories to tell.
#15166590
Politics_Observer wrote:@Tainari88

Some of the other Puerto Rican army veterans I have run across when shopping, they will tell me war stories about invasions of other countries they participated in while serving in the U.S. Army.These are guys you would love Tainari88, no doubt! :lol: But they have a few good funny war stories to tell.


My father Politics was a veteran. He was Air Force. He was stationed in Japan. In the fifties. A young man. He read a lot of interesting stories about the Kamakazi soldiers and many things about the Japanese during WWII. He never hated the Japanese and he did see a lot of racism. Against Black soldiers and Latinos and Asians and Native American service men and women. The military has changed a lot since then. But there are still dummies out there in the military who want to keep transgender soldiers from serving or don't tell if you are a lesbian or a gay man in the military. Things have changed.

My mother's younger brother and only brother was also a veteran. Neither my maternal uncle or my father were for American statehood. Both pro-independence all the way. They served in the USA military. The NUMBER ONE nationalist of the Puerto Ricans was Don Pedro Albizu Campos an Army veteran. Brilliant guy. Look up his military career and his legal career. He was a traitor because he was against USA hypocrisy. He was considered an outstanding soldier by the USA Army. But he wanted an independent Puerto Rico. Something the USA government had no intention of ceding to him or the other nationalist party Puerto Ricans. Bring your friend here. I will deal with his lack of understanding.

My uncle speaks Korean, German, Spanish, and English. He has a Master's degree and is very intelligent. You ask him about his politics. The Americans need to go. They don't respect us as a culture, a nation, or economically. Not all veterans are gung ho conservatives. The most brilliant are secretive pro-independence. It happens with the Samoans. They also are loyal fine soldiers but they know the reason for them not being citizens of the USA with rights is that the USA wants to have their lands. They don't allow it and they are stripped of any status. No status and live in limbo. IT IS SHAMEFUL SHIT.

But? The lies continue.
#15166596
@Tainari88

I am a TRUE BLUE flag waving American patriot. That being said, i honestly don't think you will change my Puerto Rican friend's mind even if you debate him here. He considers himself Puerto Rican but also seems very loyal to the US and he was an outstanding soldier and has been promoted into high positions after his army career because of his outstanding work ethic. He too is very well educated (better educated than me) and has earned a Masters degree. He is also a republican and big on going to church and is a big time Baptist. He likes his bible and studying the bible. He and i are working on a content management system written in PHP for his church. I would rank him as the top student in my class right now.
#15166612
noemon wrote:The War in Donbass initiated by Russian-armed rebels started in April 2014, right when Euromaidan was coming to an end in late March 2014.
Russia invaded into the Ukraine to help the Russian-armed rebels in July-August 2014 because they were losing ground.


I hope we are not infowar berserks here ;) And this resource is far from being a mass media, right?
So there is no point in repeating your statement without checking your facts.
Again, the so called ‘maidan’ started in November 21, 2013. It was nothing but a conflict between Ukrainian oligarch clans. No one in Ukraine concealed the fact Yanukovich was a ‘representative’ from the Donetsk clan. And it was never a secret Poroshenko who came instead of him was an oligarch.
Both sides used firearms already in January-February 2014. The number of victims was roughly equal on both sides. So the civil war broke out long before April.
#15166620
Ivan_R wrote:I hope we are not infowar berserks here ;) And this resource is far from being a mass media, right?
So there is no point in repeating your statement without checking your facts.
Again, the so called ‘maidan’ started in November 21, 2013. It was nothing but a conflict between Ukrainian oligarch clans. No one in Ukraine concealed the fact Yanukovich was a ‘representative’ from the Donetsk clan. And it was never a secret Poroshenko who came instead of him was an oligarch.
Both sides used firearms already in January-February 2014. The number of victims was roughly equal on both sides. So the civil war broke out long before April.


Indeed there is no point in repeating yourself like a Russian broken record trying to obscure the very obvious Russian interference in the Ukraine that culminated into an outright invasion while fomenting terrorism and separatism in the Ukraine for the sole purpose of preventing the Ukraine from becoming an EU member.

Euromaidan started in November 2013 and ended in April 2014 with the ousting of Yanukovych, as Russia failed to achieve its objective through the Yanukovych puppet, she then started the Donbass war in May 2014 and when the Ukraine recovered most of its territory back from the rebels then Russia invaded the Ukraine in July-August 2014.

What is your post-truth Russian point here?
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