Russian armor heading towards border with Ukraine - Page 15 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15166962
noemon wrote:It means you have to respect other members and people, it means you can have a normal life, and that you can travel, study and work in Europe and retire with your pension anywhere you fancy.

The EU is the finest inter-governmental organisation to exist and to have ever existed in history. There is no reason why anyone from anywhere in the world should not aspire to become a member and enjoy the rights and responsibilities of other members as these equal rights among nations have never ever been offered to other nations and nor will they ever be offered again, certainly not in the near-future.



The UK being an ultra-nationalist and parochial country does not mean the EU is a hard-sell.

It means the UK has gone off the rails.


I only aspire to have my nation be able to call the shots in their own territory Noemon. Puerto Rico is still a colony of a much bigger power. She has never been free since 1493 till now. Never free. Could not be free under Spain and not free under the USA. Just limited stuff forever.

That is what all these nations want. Economic freedom and being able to go and live where they want. But greed, violence and hatred, and imperial thinking? It is all about slavery. I am so damn sick and tired of slavery Noemon. Sick of what it means for us. For all the nations struggling in Latin America and Africa.

Do these nuclear powers care about places that are forced into agreements that don't favor the people living on that land? I don't know. I think they don't care. They think they have a right to own people and land that is not theirs. For what? Send them off to get killed in wars that are never about liberation and democracy and equal rights but about some capitalist industry looking for blood money.

It sickens me. Damn despots and tyrants and people stuck with all that imperialistic diplomacy.

Crimea is a prize that Russian Right Wing man has been eyeing always. They all do. He doesn't care what a war might do to the civilians in the Ukraine. Just like Hitler did not care how many Russians died defending Stalingrad in WWII.

What are they going to do now? Start another war? Or just go back to cold war stupidities and start using the Third World as pawns?
#15166967
Juin wrote:Three powerful Nato members give a shit.

If these three powerful Nato members gave a shit, they would be urging Ukraine to walk back to the table, not march to war.


:lol:
#15166970
Tainari88 wrote:I only aspire to have my nation be able to call the shots in their own territory Noemon. Puerto Rico is still a colony of a much bigger power. She has never been free since 1493 till now. Never free. Could not be free under Spain and not free under the USA. Just limited stuff forever.

That is what all these nations want. Economic freedom and being able to go and live where they want. But greed, violence and hatred, and imperial thinking? It is all about slavery. I am so damn sick and tired of slavery Noemon. Sick of what it means for us. For all the nations struggling in Latin America and Africa.


For many nations becoming EU members was the only way for them to be sovereign in their own territory as the criteria for membership are designed to empower people and set minimum quality standards for governance and though that can not always be achieved to perfection in practice, the effort matters.

And that is why everyone hates the EU, because for all dictators & Nazis the EU is an inconvenience because it shows the way as to how relations between nations can be resolved in equity, justice and peace.

Tainari88 wrote:Do these nuclear powers care about places that are forced into agreements that don't favor the people living on that land? I don't know. I think they don't care. They think they have a right to own people and land that is not theirs. For what? Send them off to get killed in wars that are never about liberation and democracy and equal rights but about some capitalist industry looking for blood money.


Russia, the UK and various petty wannabe empires all hate the EU because it is a thorn on gunboat diplomacy, totalitarianism, war and imperialism.

The reasons they hate the EU is because they want to be more special than EU members, they want to be treated in a superior fashion than EU equitability that forces them to be more equal to smaller nations.

Tainari88 wrote:Crimea is a prize that Russian Right Wing man has been eyeing always. They all do. He doesn't care what a war might do to the civilians in the Ukraine. Just like Hitler did not care how many Russians died defending Stalingrad in WWII.

What are they going to do now? Start another war? Or just go back to cold war stupidities and start using the Third World as pawns?


It is beyond Crimea, it is about punishing the Ukraine and discrediting the EU so that Russian despotism creates a permanent broken issue in the heart of Europe to use as leverage as and when it feels like.

This is a wedge that Russia plans to hold on Ukraine's neck for decades if not centuries, history shows how all these wedges transpire.

Some people in here seek to justify this bullshit and that's the most worrying part. These shit should not be justified and Russia should not be "understood", she should be called out, named, shamed and told explicitly that no trade can take place while she occupies territory in Europe. That's the very least.
#15166972
@ingliz

NATO members DO give a shit. Russia has a pretty big army and a lot of nuclear weapons. So, yeah, I think it's safe to say that NATO DOES give a shit. That doesn't mean we will let the Russians intimidate us or invade a NATO member state without serious military costs; but it's a good idea to have a healthy respect for the military capabilities that Russia has and not initiate a war that could potentially have devastating consequences globally. It also means Russia should not use it's military power to engage in un-necessary wars.
#15166973
@ingliz I fear Russia will use forcé and Biden might do what? The USA has to stop being involved in these wars. It is neverending wars.
@noemon mentioned:
The UK is provincial. Those are your thoughts.I thought the UK was not very serious when the pound never became a Euro . If they wanted to be part of the EU in a serious way? The currency would have been changed.

@Politics_Observer the USA needs to stop their invasions in América Latina too. End that crappy stuff!

Ukraine needs to negotiate. How do the Ukrainians know if the EU is going to pressure Putin?
#15166975
@Tainari88

The Ukrainians have tried to talk to Russia but Putin is not taking their calls. Putin is taking the calls from Biden though. It's as @ingliz says, it's the big boys playing the games and sort of using Ukraine as a pawn. But, unfortunately for the smaller countries, it seems to be the nature of the business. It doesn't make it right but seems to be the reality. But that doesn't mean the big boys can't be taken down a peg or two by the small boys on occasion either. The "big boys" aren't invincible though they have a lot of power and weight they can throw around.
#15166977
Tainari88 wrote:The UK is provincial. Those are your thoughts.I thought the UK was not very serious when the pound never became a Euro . If they wanted to be part of the EU in a serious way? The currency would have been changed.


That is not necessary as several EU members have not adopted the euro.
#15166980
Putin is not going to let Crimea be taken away.

Is it another Cubano missile crisis but with Biden instead of Kennedy? I just this can spiral out of control quickly.

I know @Potemkin admires that BoJo man and the Douglas Ross Scottish Tory is his favorito too.

Hee hee. I just identify with the regular people to trying to live in some lindo of normal y
But the mafia política wins the day.

Sorry @noemon but My phone is translating everything into Spanish. Can't write.
#15166985
Tainari88 wrote:Putin is not going to let Crimea be taken away.

Is it another Cubano missile crisis but with Biden instead of Kennedy? I just this can spiral out of control quickly.


The Crimea has already been taken away from Russia back in 1957.

That was a Soviet decision.

This is no Cuban missile crisis, NATO is already in all the neighbouring countries and as we saw the Ukraine was not going to join NATO anyway. This is all fake news intended to justify Russian imperialism.

This is all Russian imperialism and aggression gone mad.
#15166986
@Tainari88

No, I don't think this is the Cuban Missile Crisis. NATO is not stationing nuclear missiles in Ukraine 90 miles from there border like the Soviets were during the Cuban Missile Crisis. The US and Soviet Union were far more likely to go to war (and came pretty close and if there weren't a few cool heads on both sides that stayed calm and kept their heads screwed on straight then the US and Soviets probably would have fought a nuclear war) directly with each other during the Cuban Missile Crisis than during this latest show down over Ukraine.
#15166990
ingliz wrote:If these three powerful Nato members gave a shit, they would be urging Ukraine to walk back to the table, not march to war.


:lol:




Old Nato- the Nato before Soviet collapse, the Nato of Germany, Italy, France- do not quite give a shit. They will just like to stay clear of Putin's increasingly dangerous frontiers. These fellows are lovers not fighters.

It is New Nato- the Nato of Poles, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians- that have shown the highest belligerency. As long as there is a Russian Federation left standing I dont think the Poles, Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians will ever feel safe. Military alliances come and go. Nato may also in due course dissolve like the Warsaw Pact before it. And then what? The Russian Federation will still be standing there and ready to pounce on the escapees. That makes the destruction of the Russian Federation the best long term guarantee for the safety of the escaped Baltics.
#15166993
noemon wrote:The Crimea has already been taken away from Russia back in 1957.

That was a Soviet decision.

This is no Cuban missile crisis, NATO is already in all the neighbouring countries and as we saw the Ukraine was not going to join NATO anyway. This is all fake news intended to justify Russian imperialism.

This is all Russian imperialism and aggression gone mad.


Yes it is. But for me? The Yanks are pretty bad with the aggressive imperialism. It is worse because Russia had to be invaded by other great powers like France, Germany, and such. The USA does the invading and never gets to be the invaded. If they did? They would be paranoid Russian style. The Yanks have been in Afghanistan and Iraq and the Middle East has been a place for oil interests from the English, the French, the Americans, and the beat goes on.

What needs to change is imperialism period. The Right Wing love guns, threats and a lot of imperialism. That is why I posted earlier about all of the problems with that line of political philosophy Noemon. Aggression and arrogance and the ones without the military and economic might? Are not consulted. They are just pawns.

I find that extremely problematic. Because eventually if things break down? Neglect and arrogance and no sense of self determination allowed? Eventually violence and terror is going to pop up. Terror is about hopelessness and a total breakdown in respecting rights.
#15166995
Tainari88 wrote:The Yanks are pretty bad with the aggressive imperialism.


What is the relevance of the Americans? US imperialism does not justify Russian imperialism in Europe.

And unlike what others are saying Russia does not need to be destroyed, she just needs to stand down and stop creating problems in Europe.
#15167001
noemon wrote:What is the relevance of the Americans? US imperialism does not justify Russian imperialism in Europe.

And unlike what others are saying Russia does not need to be destroyed, she just needs to stand down and stop creating problems in Europe.


Noemon, you are thinking in rational just terms. That doesn't exist with the despotic imperially minded. They don't go for not creating problems and standing down. it doesn't happen with these mentalities. I often think to myself, "Just deal with a real discussion and treat others in other nations like your equals." They can't do it. The Russian imperialism is like the Yankees with us. They can't see equality. It is about POWER over the other group. Period. End of the story for them.

Why do I hate the imperialists. They know no one is going to destroy them. They got nukes and they are macho men with EMPIRE rot on the brain.

Russian imperialism. American imperialism. Wars that never end. I rest my case.

That political philosophy is terrible and it is always doing predictably aggressive things. That is how it operates.
#15167003
Tainari88 wrote:Putin is not going to let Crimea be taken away.

Is it another Cubano missile crisis but with Biden instead of Kennedy? I just this can spiral out of control quickly.

I know @Potemkin admires that BoJo man and the Douglas Ross Scottish Tory is his favorito too.

Hee hee. I just identify with the regular people to trying to live in some lindo of normal y
But the mafia política wins the day.





I believe it is comparable to the Cubano missile crisis but with the roles reversed: with Senile Joe in the shoes of Nikita Krushchev and Putin in the shoes of JFK; and the school boyish Ukrainian Supremo Volodymyr Zelensky in the shoes of el Supremo Fidel Alejandro Castro Ruz.

Like Fidel Castro before him, the Ukrainian Supremo wants Nato- not just the flag, the whole enchilada- planted on Ukrainian soil. That, the Ukrainian Supremo, believes is the only thing that can protect him from Putin.

There was a lot of poaching in Russia's near abroad following the fall of the Soviet Union. A geostrategic disaster that irks no end the fierce and taciturn Putin. Kremlin's chief is bent on making poaching in Russia's vincinity a perilous business. No more free recruitments into Nato/Eu. Crimea is gone. There is a new Sheriff in town. Poachers will be shot on sight.

But all this was foreseable. At the time the Soviet Union collapsed the US and Nato had no intentions of pushing eastwards. Everyone was just happy the decades old standoff was over. The later expansions under mainly Clinton was opportunistic. Russia was comatose, embroiled in its own internal convulsions.

I believe because the recruitments into Nato and Eu came with such ease, the impression set in that joining Nato was a right, should be risk free, independent of objections by other interested parties.

Joining a military alliance has NEVER been risk free
#15167005
@Juin Putin in the shoes of JFK? :lol:

I think the only slim connection between Putin and JFK is that the Kennedys made their money with shady businesses like bootlegging or something in Boston--but Putin was having that Bromance with Trump. I think they realized it was a golden opp to be able to destabilize the USA and Trump would get some plum contracts once his gig was up with the White House. He was just hoping it would have been an eight-year gig and it turned out to be a four-year one instead.

You got another Irish American in the White House but? He might decide BoJo is a weakling and he will rattle Putin a bit. I happen to think that cyberattack the Russians did was planned for months. I also think again if the Chinese Dragon and Russian Bear start some secretive take down of the US government? The European Union that Noemon spoke so highly of? Might be the only alliance that might have a chance of surviving economically.

I wonder though why so many European Union nations are trying to recruit people with little kids to go and raise them in Europe?It is interesting. Maybe they are not having enough children eh?
#15167137
@ingliz

It's not common knowledge but Soviet pilots and Surface to Air Missile crews have directly fought against American and Israeli pilots. During the Korean War Soviet and American pilots fought each other in the skies. The Soviets had the better Mig-15 plane at the time but many of the Soviet pilots didn't have as much combat experience as the American pilots so American pilots shot down much more Mig-15s than the Soviets shot down of U.S. planes at the time (given that the Soviet Union is primarily a land power which relied heavily on it's army during World War II their air crews didn't get or have as much combat experience as American pilots fighting German and Japanese pilots during World War II). The key factor in those dog fights was combat experience. Experience matters and can even defeat a more technologically superior foe.

However, upon discovering that the Mig-15 was a better plane, the U.S. upgraded it's warplanes to match the technology of the Mig-15 at the time. There was also a conflict where Israel and Soviet pilots as well as as Surface to Air Missile crews fought each other. The Soviet surface to air missile crews were very effective both in Vietnam and fighting the Israelis.

The Israelis initially stayed away from engaging Soviet pilots and SAM crews until they started taking losses. Once they decided that it was open season on the Soviet pilots, they lured those Soviet planes into a trap and shot down a bunch of them during a dog fight. So, it seems the Soviets are excellent at producing great war planes but their pilots don't seem to fare too well against US and Israeli pilots in the air in dogfights. However, the Soviet Surface to Air Missile batteries have fared very well against US and Israeli pilots and are very effective.
#15167165
@ingliz

Russians do not fight American soldiers in Ukraine. Now, some American private citizens who go over there and free lance themselves out to the Ukrainians, are there on their own accord and not with the blessing of the U.S. government. Russians are not fighting the U.S. Army, to my knowledge anyway, in Ukraine. I mean, if they are, then I am assuming they are keeping it a secret, but honestly, I highly doubt Russians are fighting American soldiers in Ukraine. At least not directly anyways.

They certainly fighting some private American citizens who are stupid enough to go over there and freelance themselves out. At least that is what they have been reporting in the news. As far as I am concerned, those private citizens are fighting in war that is not there's to fight given they are not there as official American soldiers under direct control of the U.S. government.

I think it's very very stupid for any American citizen to go and fight as a mercenary in the Ukraine or anywhere for that matter. But from what I understand there are American citizens there on their own accord. If they aren't careful, they could face criminal charges here in the U.S. if the U.S. government thinks they violated any of our laws and that's if they don't get themselves killed before returning to the U.S. or being indicted on criminal charges if they are found to violate any laws.

What I was referring to, was in past wars, like in the Korean War, Vietnam War and in the 1973 Israeli war American and Israeli pilots did directly fight Soviet airplane pilots and Surface to Air Missile Crews. All those pilots and crews were under the direct control of their respective governments at the time. That information is no longer secret and is talked about publicly today though not always at the time.
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