Alexey Navalny detained on return to Moscow - Page 23 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Talk about what you've seen in the news today.

Moderator: PoFo Today's News Mods

#15165996
Beren wrote:It actually turned out to be that, didn't it? The NSDAP was supported and financed by industrialists, monopolists, militarists (including the military itself), junkers, and other Conservatives and Reactionaries while socialistic elements got purged from it.


The industrialists first and foremost financed the conservative parties, not the NSDAP. It's just that the NSDAP was the largest party and the conservative parties thought they could control Hitler if they formed a coalition government.

Beren wrote:As a matter of fact Hitler, so thus the NSDAP itself, never meant to be really socialist, and if you happened to be a socialist comrade, you got sidelined or could have even been purged/murdered for it. So if you joined the NSDAP as a Socialist because you believed it to be a real socialist party, you were wrong to do so. The NSDAP had never been a socialist party just because there were some Socialists in it for a while, it had always literally been socialist in name only.


I don't think that outcome was a foregone conclusion. Was Röhm's second revolution rhetoric only that? He was the second most powerful man in the party after all.

Besides, "socialist in name only" applies to like 95% of politicians who label themselves socialist nowadays.
#15166012
Rugoz wrote:The industrialists first and foremost financed the conservative parties, not the NSDAP. It's just that the NSDAP was the largest party and the conservative parties thought they could control Hitler if they formed a coalition government.

They may have financed other parties more, but they actually financed the Nazis too, that's how they got their infrastructure and did their campaigns, Hitler's Deutschlandsflugs most notably. I wouldn't say they wanted him to be chancellor that much, but they also didn't oppose it and obviously preferred him to any leftist alternative.

Rugoz wrote:Was Röhm's second revolution rhetoric only that?

Was Röhm an ideologue or thinker at all, or was he rather a blatant demagogue? Sorry, but he wasn't a Trotsky- or Bukharin-like figure. :lol:

Let me be clearer and even plainer then: Hitler, a reactionary Reichswehr agent originally, lied, and people, including Socialists, fell for it. Nazism wasn't a socialist ideology, it rather was a form of Fascism, which was also reactionary. Reactionary in this case means that it was a political reaction to Socialism, which Nazism actually opposed.
#15166047
Beren wrote:They may have financed other parties more, but they actually financed the Nazis too, that's how they got their infrastructure and did their campaigns, Hitler's Deutschlandsflugs most notably. I wouldn't say they wanted him to be chancellor that much, but they also didn't oppose it and obviously preferred him to any leftist alternative.


Well, I cannot find a source that would put a number behind the "more", but it looks like the industrialists didn't make any decisive contributions to the NSDAP until 1933. Of course the DNVP/DVP were hardly democratic parties, only the SPD/Zentrum were loyal to the Weimar republic. What's with the "Deutschlandflug"?

Beren wrote:Was Röhm an ideologue or thinker at all, or was he rather a blatant demagogue? Sorry, but he wasn't a Trotsky- or Bukharin-like figure.


I don't know, no doubt it had something to do with working class background of the SA. Point is though, it's kind of lazy to argue that everything these people said in public was simply a ruse.

Beren wrote:Let me be clearer and even plainer then: Hitler, a reactionary Reichswehr agent originally, lied, and people, including Socialists, fell for it. Nazism wasn't a socialist ideology, it rather was a form of Fascism, which was also reactionary. Reactionary in this case means that it was a political reaction to Socialism, which Nazism actually opposed.


Hitler didn't see Marxism and Socialism as the same. He detested Marxism above all because it was international, putting the class conflict above anything else. For Hitler it was Germany and the German race above anything else.

E.g.:

Hitler in Mein Kampf wrote:The German worker cannot be raised from his present standing and incorporated in the
German folk-community by means of goody-goody meetings where people talk about
the brotherhood of the people, but rather by a systematic improvement in the social and
cultural life of the worker until the yawning abyss between him and the other classes
can be filled in. A movement which has this for its aim must try to recruit its followers
mainly from the ranks of the working class. It must include members of the intellectual
classes only in so far as such members have rightly understood and accepted without
reserve the ideal towards which the movement is striving. This process of
transformation and reunion cannot be completed within ten or twenty years. It will take
several generations, as the history of such movements has shown.

The most difficult obstacle to the reunion of our contemporary worker in the national
folk-community does not consist so much in the fact that he fights for the interests of his
fellow-workers, but rather in the international ideas with which he is imbued and
which are of their nature at variance with the ideas of nationhood and fatherland. This
hostile attitude to nation and fatherland has been inculcated by the leaders of the
working class. If they were inspired by the principle of devotion to the nation in all that
concerns its political and social welfare, the trades unions would make those millions of
workers most valuable members of the national community, without thereby affecting
their own constant struggle for their economic demands.

A movement which sincerely endeavours to bring the German worker back into his
folk-community, and rescue him from the folly of internationalism, must wage a
vigorous campaign against certain notions that are prevalent among the industrialists.
One of these notions is that according to the concept of the folk-community, the
employee is obliged to surrender all his economic rights to the employer and, further,
that the workers would come into conflict with the folk-community if they should
attempt to defend their own just and vital interests. Those who try to propagate such a
notion are deliberate liars. The idea of a folk-community does not impose any
obligations on the one side that are not imposed on the other.

A worker certainly does something which is contrary to the spirit of folk-community if
he acts entirely on his own initiative and puts forward exaggerated demands without
taking the common good into consideration or the maintenance of the national
economic structure. But an industrialist also acts against the spirit of the folkcommunity
if he adopts inhuman methods of exploitation and misuses the working forces of the nation
to make millions unjustly for himself from the sweat of the workers.
He has no right to call himself 'national' and no right to talk of a folk-community, for he
is only an unscrupulous egoist who sows the seeds of social discontent and provokes a
spirit of conflict which sooner or later must be injurious to the interests of the country.
The reservoir from which the young movement has to draw its members will first of all
be the working masses. Those masses must be delivered from the clutches of the
international mania. Their social distress must be eliminated. They must be raised
above their present cultural level, which is deplorable, and transformed into a resolute
and valuable factor in the folk-community, inspired by national ideas and national
sentiment.
#15167162
So uhh, apparently Navalny and his anti-corruption fund are an extremist organisation like ISIS or Hezbollah :excited:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... t-movement
The Moscow prosecutor’s office has announced that it will seek to designate Alexander Navalny’s Anti-Corruption Foundation and his regional political headquarters as “extremist groups”, moving to in effect liquidate the jailed opposition leader’s political organisation in Russia.

It is the most sweeping assault yet on supporters of Navalny, and comes after his two-and-a-half-year sentence on embezzlement charges and the arrest of his top aides on various charges following large protests in January and February.

In a statement released on Friday evening, the law enforcement body said it was seeking the designation usually reserved for violent organisations such as al-Qaida or Aum Shinrikyo, because it believed Navalny’s organisations were “creating conditions for changing the foundations of the constitutional order, including through the scenario of a ‘coloured revolution’”.

Coloured revolutions were pro-democracy uprisings in former Soviet republics in the mid-2000s now seen in Russia as western-backed coups. Navalny’s organisations have strongly criticised Vladimir Putin and his government, but have not called for any kind of armed rebellion to overthrow the Kremlin.

The decision, if approved, threatens to severs Navalny from his supporters in the regions and even from his financial donors, many of whom could be liable for financing an extremist group if they continued to provide support.

“They’ve decided to steamroll the Anti-Corruption Foundation and the headquarters,” wrote the head of the Anti-Corruption Foundation, Ivan Zhdanov. “We won’t surrender.”

In a statement, he said: “The Kremlin has just demanded that anyone who does not agree with them to be called an extremist … It’s absolutely clear that the Kremlin’s new attack is connected with the planned protest and the elections in September.”

Leonid Volkov, another close Navalny ally, said the Friday evening press release was a “test of public opinion” and called Navalny supporters to make their voices heard.

The prosecutor’s office said that it had applied for a court ruling to recognise both organisations as extremist, which, if granted and upheld on appeal, would allow the government to fine and imprison members of the pro-Navalny groups.

On Friday, a former camera operator for Navalny was sentenced to two years in prison on extremism charges for writing two strongly worded tweets that said top Kremlin officials “didn’t deserve to live”. The tweets came after a regional journalist lit herself on fire in an act of protest and died.

In the statement, the prosecutor’s office also claimed that Navalny’s organisation was acting in place of international organisations in Russia whose activities had been deemed “undesirable”. The statement in effect calls Navalny’s movement a front for western interests.

Navalny’s political movement has evolved over the last decade from a lone gadfly blogger with a LiveJournal to a guerrilla newsroom, an opposition research centre and a campaign strategy headquarters seeking to unseat the United Russia party by channelling votes to its most likely opponents.


Putin residence has cryo chamber and stables, Navalny team alleges
Read more
The Anti-Corruption Foundation has angered Russia’s elites by publishing investigations into their expensive watches, yachting trips, lovers’ trysts, inflated procurements and other aspects of the government corruption that Navalny says has characterised the Putin era.

On Friday, it published its latest investigation into a lavish residence allegedly used by Putin, which is reportedly fitted out with a luxury spa complex with cryo chambers and a float pool, and which it claimed was rented from a close ally of Putin’s using taxpayers’ money.

The continuing investigations have proven that Navalny can be dangerous to the Kremlin even while he remains on hunger strike in a Russian prison. He was arrested upon returning to the country in January following treatment for a poisoning attempt on his life that he, in a joint investigation with Bellingcat, traced back to the Russian FSB.
#15167172
@JohnRawls

"The statement in effect calls Navalny’s movement a front for western interests."

That is a fair assessment. His movement is a front for western interests.
#15167178
ingliz wrote:@JohnRawls

"The statement in effect calls Navalny’s movement a front for western interests."

That is a fair assessment. His movement is a front for western interests.


Define what you mean by that? If you mean that Navalny stands for liberal democracy and open economy then sure. But that is hardly "western interest" considering literally all developed countries are like that nowadays. Even places like Dubai, SA, UAE and China embraced almost all Western economic practices.

So please explain what you mean by western interest please.
#15167202
ingliz wrote:That is a fair assessment. His movement is a front for western interests.


Navalny is literally willing to throw his life away for Russia, but no, he's a "front for western interests". :knife:

I also find it hilarious that (some) Pofo left-wingers are shilling for a neoliberal, because that's what the Russian left sees in Putin.
#15167265
@Rugoz

Navalny is literally willing to throw his life away for Russia America.

Navalny is a US project, just like Saakashvili, Yushchenko, and Guaido.

It's more than a coincidence they all received training under a program run by the National Democratic Institute (NDI), which is known to have close ties to the US intelligence services.
#15167486
It's quite shameless with what ease people dehumanise other people just for the sake of the narrative of some foreign country.

Maltese westerner calls Russian martyr a "traitor" to make himself sound edgy and nod to Putin in case he's got any rubles to spare.

It's very pathetic when you actually pause and think about the thought process behind it.
#15168309
Ganeshas Rat wrote:I think there is no need to explain that if Navalny did know that he will be detained the minute his plane lands (and he knew; two days before the flight it was announced that he will be prosecuted for probation violation) and he still came to the airport and boarded the plane it means he is absolutely sure nothing will happen to him. Most probably because someone he trusts to and who is able to give a 'get out of a jail' card promised him there will be no problems with his return. Was it personally the German chancellor or some Russian stateman in high position is not important.




A gift from Germany to Russia. Tell me something new. Didn't Germany smuggle another gift labeled Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov to Moscow during WWI? A virus that corroded and eventually brought down the Czar. But this new gift from Germany labeled Navalny, I doubt its potency. Vladimir Ulyanov was a tough cookie, lifelong partisan, well tried and tested. Navalny's resume is pithy. I do not see how hunger strike in a leadership is what it takes to handle a job as taxing as running the Russian Federation
#15168720
noemon wrote:Maltese westerner calls Russian martyr

Russian saint, Russian genius, Russian brightest star of humanity that ever lighted this sinful world.

One of the attractive points of the Western civilization is the attempt of objectivity without the tendency of some other cultures to turn everyone into a "genial magician and bravest warrior with honey flowing of their pores and nostrils" or "a demonic fiend, the worst ugly animal whose main sin is that it even dared to desecrate Earth by stepping on it". Though of course most people don't really hold to ethical standards their civilization proclaim, with many Westerners seeing things and people exactly black-and-white.
#15168726
Ganeshas Rat wrote:Russian saint, Russian genius, Russian brightest star of humanity that ever lighted this sinful world.

One of the attractive points of the Western civilization is the attempt of objectivity without the tendency of some other cultures to turn everyone into a "genial magician and bravest warrior with honey flowing of their pores and nostrils" or "a demonic fiend, the worst ugly animal whose main sin is that it even dared to desecrate Earth by stepping on it". Though of course most people don't really hold to ethical standards their civilization proclaim, with many Westerners seeing things and people exactly black-and-white.


Please tell us more how imprisoning the Russian opposition while threatening and invading your neighbors is something that people in the West just do not get.

Your obscurantism is cute.
#15168735
The Guardian wrote:Jailed Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny ends hunger strike


Alexei Navalny has said he is ending his hunger strike after getting medical attention and being warned by his doctors that continuing it would be life-threatening.

In an Instagram post on Friday afternoon, the 24th day of his hunger strike, the imprisoned Russian opposition leader said he would continue to demand a visit from his doctor to address a loss of sensation in his legs and arms – his main demand when launching his hunger strike.

But he said he would stop refusing food after getting examined by non-prison doctors. He also acknowledged the mass pro-Navalny protests across Russia on Wednesday.

“Thanks to the huge support of good people across the country and around the world, we have made huge progress,” Navalny said in his message.

Another reason he was ending the hunger strike he began on 31 March was that some of his supporters were refusing to eat in a show of solidarity with him, Navalny said.

“Tears flowed from my eyes when I read that. God, I’m not even acquainted with these people, and they do this for me. Friends, my heart is full of love and gratitude for you, but I don’t want anyone physically suffering because of me,” said the 44-year-old politician, who is Vladimir Putin’s most prominent critic.

Navalny began the hunger strike to protest against prison authorities’ refusal to let his doctors visit after he developed severe back pain and numbness in his legs.

Officials insisted Navalny was getting the medical help he needed, but Navalny said he had in effect received no treatment.

On Wednesday night, a further round of mass protests demanding his freedom swept across Russia. A top aide said Wednesday night’s protests seemed to have brought a compromise from Russian authorities on getting Navalny the medical help he had demanded when launching the hunger strike.

Navalny was arrested in January upon his return from Germany, where he had spent five months recovering from a nerve agent poisoning he blames on the Kremlin – accusations Russian officials reject.
  • 1
  • 19
  • 20
  • 21
  • 22
  • 23

more than possible, ask experts i can give facebo[…]

May 7, Thursday President Lincoln and General […]

Do understand how consent legally works? Because t[…]

How was Korea unjust? How was WW2 unjust? Cold […]