Identity Politics - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Tainari88
#15167651
Rancid wrote:Fuck you bitch.

Everytime i think of ID politics. I always think of those shit posts on LinkedIn.

"I'm a mother, CEO, athlete, wife, daughter, artist......." then they proceed to talk about how great they are because they manage to cram so much shit into their lives. This shit distills life down into chasing busyness and titles basically. I always want to respond to those posts with "STOP AND SMELL THE FUCKING ROSES SISTER! LIFE IS PASSING YOU BY! YOU'RE TOO BUSY!"

I hate this shit because it sets up this expectation, that if you are not oversubscribing your life/time, that you are a not living. I'm using a woman as an example, but guys are doing this dumb shit too.

This an all the fake ass CEOs on linkedin annoy the shit out of me...

SOrry for the tangent.


And Tainari88 approves this rant!
By wat0n
#15167653
Rancid wrote:Great point. Do you think that society at large will eventually become tired of this in-fighting and the social disorder it causes? Maybe this dysfunction is a revolution of sorts and needed?

I wouldn't know.


It's hard to know, honestly. I certainly hope so.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Do you mean cops?

Or racist politicians?

Or the right in general?


The last two, plus postmodern culture warriors and the left in general too. I don't think all cops play the identity politics game, even if some do.

For instance, elsewhere we discussed the difference between transgender and transracial people. You were against imposing an identity on the former and had no issues in doing so to the latter, without really providing a reason.

I'll give you a reason not to: Accepting claims of transracialism would severely undermine all the traditional American-style identity politics based on concepts like "Whiteness" and "Blackness", just like accepting transgender identities severely undermines all the traditional identity politics centered on gender and particularly gender roles. Since you don't like the idea of the former but have no issues with the latter, it's easy to explain your position.
#15167665
I know 2 white people personally who have an unhealthy fetish with black people and black culture, to the point of mild to major obsession. They don't think they're black, but they certainly want to be black. It's really weird.

I know 1 black person who bleached their skin and straightened their hair to be more white.
Last edited by Unthinking Majority on 18 Apr 2021 18:54, edited 1 time in total.
#15167669
wat0n wrote:The last two, plus postmodern culture warriors and the left in general too. I don't think all cops play the identity politics game, even if some do.

For instance, elsewhere we discussed the difference between transgender and transracial people. You were against imposing an identity on the former and had no issues in doing so to the latter, without really providing a reason.


So, in terms of transgender people, I am opposing the imposing of traditional binary gender roles and identities on individuals.

In the second case, I am opposed to white people appropriating racial identities that white people have traditionally imposed on BIPOC people in order to make money off them.

In both cases, we see people in power trying to impose their identity politics on others, and in both cases the left opposes this.

I'll give you a reason not to: Accepting claims of transracialism would severely undermine all the traditional American-style identity politics based on concepts like "Whiteness" and "Blackness",


How does allowing white people to make money off pretending to be BIPOC somehow challenge the history of white people imposing races on BIPOC people?
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By Rancid
#15167673
Unthinking Majority wrote:I know 1 black person who bleached their skin and straightened their hair to be more white.
Unthinking Majority wrote:I also know in many minority cultures they will think lighter skin is more beautiful than darker skin, which is terrible.


This is true in many places. India is one that I know of. Dominican Republic is another. There are long historical explanations for this, but I agree, it's terrible.

Dominicans go through a lot of trouble to deny their African heritage. Many will go as far as to claim they are more native than black, when they are clearly much more black (the data say's most Dominicans have sub 5% of native DNA, while anywhere from 20-90% of west African DNA). Dominican culture itself, is more influenced by West African culture than native culture. This is part of the hate of Haitians, it's a projection of their own denial of their blackness. It's not all just that, but that's a large component. Another component is Dominican Independence is Independence from Haiti; and of course, its hard not to throw in "oh yeah, and they are also blacker than us". Iwould say it's all more complex than that, but that's a quick top level explanation.

My mom, to this day, still say's that I have "pelo malo" (bad hair), and occasionally talks about how she's happy that my kids do not have pelo malo.

All of that said, I do take offense when white Americans start saying DOminicans are all racist and shit though. It's a complex history, and it's just not that simple. As there are many Dominicans that also embrace their west african roots and what not, so it's a mix bag
By wat0n
#15167675
Pants-of-dog wrote:So, in terms of transgender people, I am opposing the imposing of traditional binary gender roles and identities on individuals.

In the second case, I am opposed to white people appropriating racial identities that white people have traditionally imposed on BIPOC people in order to make money off them.

In both cases, we see people in power trying to impose their identity politics on others, and in both cases the left opposes this.


Pants-of-dog wrote:How does allowing white people to make money off pretending to be BIPOC somehow challenge the history of white people imposing races on BIPOC people?


It's funny, TERFs say the same about MtF trans persons.

It seems this is arbitrary and, indeed, about your power to tell others how to see themselves. This sounds like a case of psychological projection.
#15167678
@wat0n

Since your post seems to discuss me personally and does not relate to my arguments, I see no reason to address it.

————————-

I think it is important to explain that identity politics is often imposed by those in power.

It is not as if I think of myself as a Latino who derives their self from imposing this identity on others. This is an identity imposed on me by people who care about that, like racist people. So the only time I really feel Latino is when I get lumped in with other Latinos, and then we need to work together to stop people from lumping us together and treating us poorly.
By wat0n
#15167682
@Pants-of-dog yet you can't deny your arguments are the same as those by the TERFs. It would seem to me that you are also part of the group of people who wants to tell others how they should see themselves.
By late
#15167688
wat0n wrote:
Which academics? Postmodern clowns?



There's a number of disciplines.

I get the feeling when you simplify it down this much, you're not left with much.

In any case, I think in terms of policy. We need to reform policing, and the justice system, and incarceration, and the demented politics that has locked it all in place.
#15167689
@wat0n

It has been my experience that many people on this forum assume incorrect things about me and my arguments. Unless they are relevant to the topic, I find these misunderstandings very boring.

———————-

So, we see identity politics happening along several dynamics.

The first is the imposition of an identity on some people in order to justify some sort of oppression.

The second is the adoption of this identity as a way of getting some group cohesion, in order to deal with the oppression.

The former seems bad. The latter seems to be case dependent, but generally good.
By wat0n
#15167691
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

It has been my experience that many people on this forum assume incorrect things about me and my arguments. Unless they are relevant to the topic, I find these misunderstandings very boring.

———————-

So, we see identity politics happening along several dynamics.

The first is the imposition of an identity on some people in order to justify some sort of oppression.

The second is the adoption of this identity as a way of getting some group cohesion, in order to deal with the oppression.

The former seems bad. The latter seems to be case dependent, but generally good.


...And yet, you are clearly imposing an identity on other individuals when rejecting their claims of being transracial just like the TERF do with biological males claiming they are actually females.

@late I don't really think you need identity politics to justify those policies you want.
By late
#15167706
wat0n wrote:
@late I don't really think you need identity politics to justify those policies you want.



I was arguing against using the concept of identity politics...
By late
#15167709
wat0n wrote:
What is it that you don't like, as a concept?



Sounds like trendy psychobabble, and a distraction from what's really going on.
By wat0n
#15167711
late wrote:Sounds like trendy psychobabble, and a distraction from what's really going on.


In what way is it "psychobabble"? You mean it doesn't really exist or that it exists but isn't important for making sense of the political situation in the country?
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By froggo
#15168036
I just popped in to nitpick about something said earlier

Wellsy wrote:The worst of identity politics is liberal criticisms of media representation


I just don't understand how this is the very worst of identity politics.
Whether it has merit nowadays or not, the media is intended to display public artforms.
Nina Simone — 'It is an artist's duty to reflect the times.'

If I think of one of the earliest instances of an adjustment of media representation my mind goes back to Emile Zola, where the literary landscape was primarily focussed on either the fabulous or the noble, Zola came along and implicated that literature ought to depict the under-represented (the humble worker) so that these lives could be understood by all.
I believe this had a major impact on the methods of sociological study. I can't find the source now, but I recall Nadine Gordimer stating that the reason she wrote novels instead of essays was because one could say much more in a novel than they could in limited empirical study
“The facts are always less than what really happened.”-Nadine Gordimer

So, by representing the under-represented, Zola opened up a world of greater insight and understanding. He made the ones who were dismissed as 'unworthy of contemplative interest' very appealing, for the humanity of them. If we should be inundated with homogenous images in today's media, we would be doing a disservice to not only ourselves, but to the people we fail to see.

I watch things like RuPaul's drag race with my sister, and the queens often share stories to the camera, of how when they were children they never got to see people like themselves on the television, and it made them feel alienated and now they are proud to share their esteem with people just like them to prevent the horrendous afflictions of self-doubt they had to endure. I can only see a diversified media landscape as a positive thing for every viewer.
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