America's Overwork Obsession - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15167933
wat0n wrote:It seems the mere threat is enough to get truants to stop their behavior.


So this is a new argument.

Are you going to support this one instead?
#15167936
Pants-of-dog wrote:So this is a new argument.

Are you going to support this one instead?


I already did. I provided you with an experiment that was aiming to check if that was the case.

I don't understand why would anyone believe incentives don't affect behavior. They definitely do.
#15167938
wat0n wrote:I already did. I provided you with an experiment that was aiming to check if that was the case.


Since that argument has nothing to do with UBI, I will ignore it.

I don't understand why would anyone believe incentives don't affect behavior. They definitely do.


You think incentives do not influence behaviour, according to your refusal to believe that rich people and governments like to save money by paying higher initial costs and reducing operating costs.

So I guess you disagree with your own claims here?

Please note that I never argued that people do not respond to incentives.
#15167941
Pants-of-dog wrote:Since that argument has nothing to do with UBI, I will ignore it.


It has a lot to do with truancy laws, though.

Pants-of-dog wrote:You think incentives do not influence behaviour, according to your refusal to believe that rich people and governments like to save money by paying higher initial costs and reducing operating costs.

So I guess you disagree with your own claims here?

Please note that I never argued that people do not respond to incentives.


I'm not sure about what you mean here. If you're still seething about the NYC example, do keep in mind that the issue was about its lack of maintenance of public buildings, which it had an incentive to engage in since it's hard for residents to hold the city accountable.
#15167969
@wat0n

None of that has anything to do with the topic.

Let me know if you have an actual argument against UBI.

As for the topic, it seems you agree that UBI would be a viable solution for poor people who have to hold a series of minimum wage jobs to make ends meet.
#15167974
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

None of that has anything to do with the topic.

Let me know if you have an actual argument against UBI.

As for the topic, it seems you agree that UBI would be a viable solution for poor people who have to hold a series of minimum wage jobs to make ends meet.


That there are better options would be an argument in itself. Shouldn't society want to give poor children the tools they need so they don't have to depend as much on governmental aid when they are adults, and do so in the most efficient and effective way possible?

Note that all the conditions I outlined are geared towards that general collective goal. Having healthy, educated and law abiding minors is a big advantage for having self-sufficient adults in the future. Conditional transfers have shown to be useful to achieve these more specific goals, which are often set by existing legislation anyway, if designed and monitored properly (according to several experiments done in different countries by now, there's a fair amount of academic literature about the topic of conditional transfers).

At last, it also underscores a different aspect of the debate: The idea that families who vaccinate their children, send them to school and have them perform satisfactorily, and keep them out of legal trouble are doing a service to society at large. They aren't getting that money for solidarity or even as a right, they are getting that money because they are serving society in their own way. I think that's important because it helps to legitimize these transfers, particularly among those who have to pay the taxes that fund them...
#15167975
@Tainari88

Excellent video. I think the problem with America today, is the fact, as one person put it, America rewards wealth but doesn't reward work as much as it should. It's also important to have that happy balance of having some free time and being able to go and see the doctor when you need to as well as having time for exercise. Being able to go on vacation once and while. Work cannot fill a void that one might have have in life. It should help to complement that contentment and happiness you already have while not robbing you of other things you need to be a happy person who has contentment.

You don't have to own a mansion or retire down to Florida or have a million bucks in your bank account to live a happy and meaningful life. But you also need to have a certain amount of money as sort of like maintenance so that you are able to live a happy, meaningful and comfortable life. If you live in poverty, then it's not easy to live a decent, happy and comfortable life. Poverty is painful. But so is working all the time and not having much time for anything else. That's why it's important to have economy and a society that provides that happy balance for the average and common person. By average and common person, this includes the working class who might not have as much power and privilege as others. But this also includes the professional classes too who also work very hard. Everybody needs that happy balance.
#15167991
The difference when it comes to countries like Japan (and China) is they have more national holidays. This includes the New Years Holiday at the end of the year and Golden Week in April, which are more than a week each.

In China a lot of employers claw back some of the holidays with 'make up' days. But they do have Spring Fest, which is fairly long.

Also, while of course convenience stores and shit are 24/7/365 everywhere, American employers and businesses are i think less observant of the national holidays which are.
Last edited by Crantag on 20 Apr 2021 02:28, edited 1 time in total.
#15167995
Politics_Observer wrote:@Tainari88

Excellent video. I think the problem with America today, is the fact, as one person put it, America rewards wealth but doesn't reward work as much as it should. It's also important to have that happy balance of having some free time and being able to go and see the doctor when you need to as well as having time for exercise. Being able to go on vacation once and while. Work cannot fill a void that one might have have in life. It should help to complement that contentment and happiness you already have while not robbing you of other things you need to be a happy person who has contentment.

You don't have to own a mansion or retire down to Florida or have a million bucks in your bank account to live a happy and meaningful life. But you also need to have a certain amount of money as sort of like maintenance so that you are able to live a happy, meaningful and comfortable life. If you live in poverty, then it's not easy to live a decent, happy and comfortable life. Poverty is painful. But so is working all the time and not having much time for anything else. That's why it's important to have economy and a society that provides that happy balance for the average and common person. By average and common person, this includes the working class who might not have as much power and privilege as others. But this also includes the professional classes too who also work very hard. Everybody needs that happy balance.


Mexicans are wonderful. They work very hard, but they play so well and love parties and socializing. They balance things extremely well in my opinion. The problem is that they are paid very low. Every time they have tried to have a wage increase a bunch of people mainly, judges, politicians, mayors, governors and administrators trying to raise it? Get killed. Violently killed. They do investigations and it usually leads to some kind of top elite rich foreigners and locals combined who own a lot of banks and powerful economic interests. The USA is complicit in the low wages because they bribe the local elites with a lot of money to take care of the 'rabble' causing the trouble. It is the way it is. Journalists die in Mexico fairly easily covering stories about raising the minimum wage or strengthening worker unions.

This year it finally will go up 15% percent. They the present Mexican government ignored the ones arguing about how it will break them financially. It won't. They are very wealthy.



If you calculate $20 Mexican pesos per $1 US dollar? A whole eight hour shift is about $8 dollars. You work a lot for eight dollars. That is total crap salaries. The Chinese worker is making about almost $7 an hour. Mexicans are making $141 Mexican pesos equivalent to eight dollars for a day? It is really really bad in Mexico.
#15168002
wat0n wrote:That there are better options would be an argument in itself. Shouldn't society want to give poor children the tools they need so they don't have to depend as much on governmental aid when they are adults, and do so in the most efficient and effective way possible?

Note that all the conditions I outlined are geared towards that general collective goal. Having healthy, educated and law abiding minors is a big advantage for having self-sufficient adults in the future. Conditional transfers have shown to be useful to achieve these more specific goals, which are often set by existing legislation anyway, if designed and monitored properly (according to several experiments done in different countries by now, there's a fair amount of academic literature about the topic of conditional transfers).

At last, it also underscores a different aspect of the debate: The idea that families who vaccinate their children, send them to school and have them perform satisfactorily, and keep them out of legal trouble are doing a service to society at large. They aren't getting that money for solidarity or even as a right, they are getting that money because they are serving society in their own way. I think that's important because it helps to legitimize these transfers, particularly among those who have to pay the taxes that fund them...


Is this an argument?

What is your central claim?
#15168005
@Tainari88

Tainari88 wrote:If you calculate $20 Mexican pesos per $1 US dollar? A whole eight hour shift is about $8 dollars. You work a lot for eight dollars. That is total crap salaries. The Chinese worker is making about almost $7 an hour. Mexicans are making $141 Mexican pesos equivalent to eight dollars for a day? It is really really bad in Mexico.


Yeah that sounds REALLY bad and I do think Mexicans deserve much better. The Puerto Rican dude on my team works REALLY HARD. He is an outstanding worker and I am glad he is on my team. He is more skilled in PHP than I am and I learn a lot from him and he is very patient and chill too. Puerto Ricans, do they have this sort of work ethic like the Mexicans? The Puerto Rican on my team has one of the best work ethics I have ever seen and it's exceptional. I think he can outwork some of the Chinese and Japanese who are famous for their work ethic quite frankly speaking.
#15168006
Pants-of-dog wrote:Is this an argument?

What is your central claim?


What didn't you understand there?

Opportunity costs exist, using conditional transfers so the recipients will have an incentive to do things like vaccinating their kids is more efficient than giving free money.
#15168007
Politics_Observer wrote:@Tainari88



Yeah that sounds REALLY bad and I do think Mexicans deserve much better. The Puerto Rican dude on my team works REALLY HARD. He is an outstanding worker and I am glad he is on my team. He is more skilled in PHP than I am and I learn a lot from him and he is very patient and chill too. Puerto Ricans, do they have this sort of work ethic like the Mexicans? The Puerto Rican on my team has one of the best work ethics I have ever seen and it's exceptional. I think he can outwork some of the Chinese and Japanese who are famous for their work ethic quite frankly speaking.


There are hard workers and slackers in all ethnic groups. Treat him with care and respect.

Mexicans work very long hours here. I like them. They know how to take breaks and have fun too. Well balanced people in general.
#15168096
wat0n wrote:What didn't you understand there?

Opportunity costs exist, using conditional transfers so the recipients will have an incentive to do things like vaccinating their kids is more efficient than giving free money.


1.How is it more efficient?

2. What do you mean by "efficient"?
#15168116
wat0n wrote:Vaccinating your kids, sending them to school and making sure they don't break the law have positive externalities.


Yes, and therefore you think that by investing in families that make sure their kids go to school, society will benefit from these externalities.

So that would be a plus for any system that supported said families. Note that providing extra money as a reward for this (instead of taking away the UBI) would also provide said externalities.

So, if we are comparing the two ideas, both get these benefits.
#15168119
Pants-of-dog wrote:Yes, and therefore you think that by investing in families that make sure their kids go to school, society will benefit from these externalities.

So that would be a plus for any system that supported said families. Note that providing extra money as a reward for this (instead of taking away the UBI) would also provide said externalities.

So, if we are comparing the two ideas, both get these benefits.


The problem, though, is that the UBI experiments such as the one in Finland have not really shown any change in behavior, with its only effect being an increase in perceived mental well-being. So why not simply reapportion the UBI budget towards increasing the rewards for a conditional transfer? It's reasonable to believe that the families who fulfill the conditions would also improve in their mental well-being, but I'd be in favor of doing yet another experiment (but a larger one than past ones) to check out if that's the case.

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