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#15168194
I have put the Canadian "Icon" Jody Wilson-Raybould as my avatar


Who's public sacrifice was more powerful.... Jody Wilson-Raybould's or Yukio Mishima's?

Jody Wilson-Raybould was appointed Justics Minister and Attorney General in the Liberal party before she resigned over the SNC-Lavalin affair. The Prime Minister at the time had gone to her in private and asked her to ignore criminal charges brought against his 'friends'. She felt uncomfortable doing so, and informed the public of what was going on which led to her getting essentially thrown out of the liberal party(but re-elected by her constituency). Now she is an Independent MP that is still able to voice her opinion, but is probably viewed askance by most of the other MPs. (I actually find it surprising that Wilson-Raybould did this, because prior to the affair, whenever I saw her on CPAC I found her to be one of the speakers whose expression was most artificially constructed and evasive, uninspired really--- I guess she got sick of suppressing her true voice and couldn't take it any longer?)

Yukio Mishima was an literary artist who missed the good ol' days of Imperialistic rule-- which he considered to be far preferable to the corporate barony that was emerging and controlling the fate of his Nation. He trained himself plus a bunch of young men, in body and mind, and eventually went and stormed a military base and killed a figure, followed by ritualistic seppuku.

Jody Wilson-Raybould has been described by Native Americans sovereigntists as the perfect example of why the system will never have their interests at heart : "We elected a person to represent our belief systems, and look at what happened to her when she tried to stand up for truth. Can we really trust a system like that?"

Most Japanese individuals, when asked (by me: I always quiz Japanese tourists about him when I meet them) say that Yukio Mishima was "Very sad." "very unhappy." But the artistic sectors of the Westernized world praise his defiance as a monumental act.

Both gave up their power to make a public statement, and both, in return have gained both symbolic status and scrutiny. One did so non-violently, by speaking the truth, and one did so violently, by committing to an act.
Both sacrificed for "what was right" and both potentially had ulterior motives (Wilson-Raybould, to gain public trust, and Yukio Mishima to immortalize his artistic works)

Both symbolic acts had little impact on the system as a whole. Wilson-Raybould however presented clear evidence of something we already knew; the cronyism of the elite. Yukio Mishima was able to get his books a wider audience and have people contemplate his viewpoint.
Which of the two do you believe was the "better martyr"?
#15168235
No, I have read his entire Sea of Fertility series plus Sun and Steel(well I only read bits and pieces of this one), so I know why he did it; I was just offering that because when I present an argument I like to show multiple angles :p (so that in case people were reading this and asking themselves "Why do Japanese tourists define Yukio as a 'very sad' man?" they could better see what kind of things are said about him after the martyrdom, to detract power from its symbolism-- I know he was essentially tired with the ineffective nature of words, seeing how effete they were when it came to truly expressing an opinion)

But, I think what I am driving at in this thread is public acts of immolation, what the various means are and whether there is any efficacy to be seen from them.

I think the contrast that I am highlighting between Jody and Mishima is that it is far simpler to obscure the motives of an artist who has expressed many sanguine fantasies in the public realm and goes on to perform a sensational act of martyrdom, than it is to question the motives of a trusted public figure who performs a less-sensational act to immolate her position, yet gets re-elected even though she is now lying half-burnt on the floors of the House of Commons. But both of them did what they did to accentuate the corruption in the world that they noticed around them.
#15168245
froggo wrote:No, I have read his entire Sea of Fertility series plus Sun and Steel(well I only read bits and pieces of this one), so I know why he did it; I was just offering that because when I present an argument I like to show multiple angles :p (so that in case people were reading this and asking themselves "Why do Japanese tourists define Yukio as a 'very sad' man?" they could better see what kind of things are said about him after the martyrdom, to detract power from its symbolism-- I know he was essentially tired with the ineffective nature of words, seeing how effete they were when it came to truly expressing an opinion)

You should read The Temple of the Golden Pavilion - it's his masterpiece. And Mishima always struck me as an essentially over-sensitive soul who was trying too hard to be hyper-masculine. Basically, his grandmother and his father were at war within his psyche. His father won, of course.

But, I think what I am driving at in this thread is public acts of immolation, what the various means are and whether there is any efficacy to be seen from them.

Mishima is dead and Japan is still a crony-capitalist liberal democracy. And Jody destroyed her ministerial career and Canada is still a crony-capitalist liberal democracy. So no, I don't see much efficacy there.

I think the contrast that I am highlighting between Jody and Mishima is that it is far simpler to obscure the motives of an artist who has expressed many sanguine fantasies in the public realm and goes on to perform a sensational act of martyrdom, than it is to question the motives of a trusted public figure who performs a less-sensational act to immolate her position, yet gets re-elected even though she is now lying half-burnt on the floors of the House of Commons. But both of them did what they did to accentuate the corruption in the world that they noticed around them.

Which is still present. Narcissistic self-immolation is probably not the best way of creating a better world for future generations.
#15168246
If there's no power in what they do, than why do people begin to idolize these figures?
And if we are made aware of issues by various means, these being one of those means, is that not preferable to us not being made aware of them at all, or being in a position where we cannot draw awareness to them? Although I suppose you are right, there are positive ways of getting a message across, like "writing books or having a media following" (effete, in Mishimas view)... but when the event is above the mundane and rises into the realm of the Spectacular, it gives it a deeper resonance among the event's audience.
#15168251
froggo wrote:If there's no power in what they do, than why do people begin to idolize these figures?
And if we are made aware of issues by various means, these being one of those means, is that not preferable to us not being made aware of them at all, or being in a position where we cannot draw awareness to them? Although I suppose you are right, there are positive ways of getting a message across, like "writing books or having a media following" (effete, in Mishimas view)... but when the event is above the mundane and rises into the realm of the Spectacular, it gives it a deeper resonance among the event's audience.

It's still narcissistic. It becomes about that individual, rather than about the cause they espouse. And Mishima was clearly trying too hard to be as masculine as possible; in effect, he brutalised himself, in life as well as in death, just as his father had brutalised him as a child.
#15168260
I'm a little confused here Potemkin

you scoffed earlier here;
Potemkin wrote:So you think Yukio Mishima did it just as a publicity stunt to sell more books? Lol.


But now you are saying it was a highly narcissistic action. Don't you know that in all artists, the legacy of a name is how their narcissism finds validation, so if it was to promote his name, it simultaneously would be 'to sell more books.' or as I had said in the OP, 'to immortalize his artistic works'

But all in all, I think we can agree that martyrdom is foolish and ineffective; what perplexes me is why something 'foolish' and 'ineffective' seems to hold a power over the mind. Jody Wilson-Raybould is seen as a brave courageous figure in the eyes of many First Nations people in Canada, Yukio Mishima is known as one of the artists most powerfully committed to his artistry; he sought for a synthesis between The Mind(Art) and the Body(World). Tibetan monks, hundreds who have burnt themselves in protest are sad poetic sages, who have transformed their lives and become spirited winds, flying across the lands and murmuring into the ears of multitudes, singing peaceful war-crys away beyond the sea.
#15168275
froggo wrote:I'm a little confused here Potemkin

But now you are saying it was a highly narcissistic action. Don't you know that in all artists, the legacy of a name is how their narcissism finds validation, so if it was to promote his name, it simultaneously would be 'to sell more books.' or as I had said in the OP, 'to immortalize his artistic works'

It was not just a publicity stunt. He genuinely believed in the rightness of what he did. But it was still a deeply narcissistic act. In fact, almost everything Mishima ever did in his life was deeply narcissistic. That was just his personality.

But all in all, I think we can agree that martyrdom is foolish and ineffective; what perplexes me is why something 'foolish' and 'ineffective' seems to hold a power over the mind. Jody Wilson-Raybould is seen as a brave courageous figure in the eyes of many First Nations people in Canada, Yukio Mishima is known as one of the artists most powerfully committed to his artistry; he sought for a synthesis between The Mind(Art) and the Body(World).

At the cost of destroying his body. To act in the world is to destroy, if only to destroy all of the alternative paths which could have been taken. And of all the causes to die for - a benighted Emperor-worshipping Japanese imperialism. Couldn't he have chosen something a bit more... enlightened? :eh:

Tibetan monks, hundreds who have burnt themselves in protest are sad poetic sages, who have transformed their lives and become spirited winds, flying across the lands and murmuring into the ears of multitudes, singing peaceful war-crys away beyond the sea.

Uh, no, actually; they're just dead. :eh:
#15168315
The purpose of this thread is not to investigate the motivation behind why someone would choose to martyr themselves, because there are so many different reasons (some people, ex. certain islamic fundamentalists are brainwashed to martyr themselves, or people who want to 'cost corporations money, the only thing they understand' and blow up trucks and effect the bottom-line in exchange for a prison term, etc.), the purpose is to wonder about what an individual sacrificing their power/life/whatever means to the observer.
I think we are focussing a little too heavily on Mr. Mishima and I should briefly turn our attentions back to Jody Wilson-Raybould for a moment
Now I know you Marxists (I think that's what you are if I'm not mistaken; I'm not using it as a pejorative :excited: ) are usually of the opinion that if it is not working towards the swift dissolution of capitalism, or in some way heralding the revolution, then it has no meaning whatsoever.
But to ordinary inquisitive citizens such as myself, who are happy to wait for capitalism to implode on itself, a story such as Jody Wilson-Raybould's has meaning as well as merit. How often do you hear of a woman who rose through the ranks to become Attorney General of Canada (I should stress a First Nations woman, considering Canada's frail relationship due to the appalling history with first nations people), lose her position because the Prime Minister asked her clandestinely to use that position for the favour of his family's friends? Occurrences like this are very rare and they do (as exhibited by her re-election as an Independent) resonate with the hoi polloi. In some ways, her courage to "be what she was elected to be" ie, honest and working for the interest of the people, is a testament to the ideals that these governmental institutions claim to hold in esteem. She is an example of what the people should presume they are electing; an honest official. And for being that, she was tossed aside as a piece of trash. I know it is easy for us to sit here and cynically call her tactless; but a part of me wants to believe that it is examples like these which can pave the way for a general standard of integrity.


p.s. I'm not saying that Mishima's motives aren't of interest. I actually do own a copy of Temple of The Golden Pavilion, so maybe when I'm done reading it I will make a thread about it in the Literature and Art Section and we can talk all about his distorted little mind there 8)
#15168495
Every act of martyrdom must be considered within its referential framework. An extreme willed action may not provide as strong of an impact as a subdued action that results from natural precipitated response. This leads one to wonder about spontaneity in political machinations contrasted to meticulous intent, or, will-to-power. To achieve the desired results is it more efficacious to plan it out thoroughly, or would one be better prepared to observe the framework and respond accordingly, or even, opportunistically?
#15169534
Potemkin wrote:And Jody destroyed her ministerial career and Canada is still a crony-capitalist liberal democracy. So no, I don't see much efficacy there.


I don't think it's fair to say that her leaving the Liberal Party when she realized it was just another racket to set up already wealthy people for more money (like the current Clinton-Foundation AIPAC Democrats in the US).... was an example of "self-immolation" though. She's still there.

In fact, the media splash surrounding her "coming of age" may have convinced a few people of just how corrupt and fake our "system" is. Though our coin-operated commercial media has a way of protecting capitalism's corruption and hiding it whenever it can.

What is a bit unbelievable is that Jody Wilson-Raybould took so long to realize that she was in a corrupt old-boys party that only "reaches out" to tokens for marketing purposes.

Perhaps she was "in" on the other scams she witnessed, but not the SNC-Lavalin racket.
#15169934
I suspect she won't be there much longer, to be honest. I was living in her voting district at the time of the last election, and it is quite an affluent area. I believe that people voted for her because they were sympathetic to her "coming of age" as you describe it, because her name was in the media, she had that power over the consciousness of the voters; but affluent people seem to feel immobilized if they come to realize that their elected member cannot really hold much sway in determining how the economy will function. I debated voting for her, but I chose to vote for the Green Party instead, just because I am more in-tune with their agenda. I suspect that the affluent people who elected her in the first place will soon go back to voting Liberal as they always had, especially since people seem to idolize Trudeau for not being one of those politicians that let their grannies and gramps die of COVID. Most people also got huge government support, monthly $2400 cheques if they were out of work temporarily, so I am certain the Liberals may have purchased life-long allies by that alone. (I think conservative leaders like trump, bolsonaro and boris johnston, have lost traction for conservative parties not only in their own countries, but across the globe, that now more people see the inhumanity a bit clearer)
As to further things you said, no crony could trust Jody now to maintain their unethical underpinings, so it is unlikely that she will be in on any secrets. There's nothing a criminal hates worse than a snitch.
I dont think there is anything wrong with a person witnessing corruption their whole life and then finally maturing to the point where they say "Actually, I don't like this." and doing something about it. It is much better than just feigning blindness until death. or worse, going along for the ride and filling your pockets with seeds of influence (seedy influence!)
#15170082
froggo wrote:As to further things you said, no crony could trust Jody now to maintain their unethical underpinings, so it is unlikely that she will be in on any secrets. There's nothing a criminal hates worse than a snitch.

What you describe is, a Liberal Party that mainly exists for racketeering purposes. The "gang" all work together and practice Omerta to make sure everyone can skim as much as possible from tax revenues.

This is also how politics works now in late capitalist countries, and it isn't sustainable. It's toxic.

I dont think there is anything wrong with a person witnessing corruption their whole life and then finally maturing to the point where they say "Actually, I don't like this."

But did she *have a clue* about political racketeering before she entred politics? If not, then you have to wonder just how much insight and personal knowledge our elected officials have across the board. Are they just well-gelled yes-men (and yes-women) for powerful crooks? If so, then we have bigger problems than "the inability to retain talent in government."

...and doing something about it. It is much better than just feigning blindness until death. or worse, going along for the ride and filling your pockets with seeds of influence (seedy influence!)

I agree. I admire what she has done in regards to exposing corruption. But one has to recognize the corruption of our entire society to understand the lack of public reaction to the burning of all our whistle-blowers.

People just want nice things, and to be as ignorant as they have to be to get 'em.
#15174436
QatzelOK wrote:But one has to recognize the corruption of our entire society to understand the lack of public reaction to the burning of all our whistle-blowers.

What is a public reaction?
This goes to the essence of this thread; to assess how the observer responds to such acts.
We could assume of course that the observer is the mass public; but as we all know, the masses have a tendency of being ineffectual or relatively inconsequential; gears and cogs.
The energy which rotates the cogs is affected by public reactions, perhaps only in the few... Is another Minister not a member of the public as well, in fact, are they not the pinnacle of a hierarchy of a sector of the public? How do the other Ministers see Jody now?
What I would really like to see is, once Jody has completed whatever tenures are afforded to her henceforward, is I would like her to speak about how the ministers treated her... She is still there, she is still speaking in the sessions; are they avoiding her, not wishing to be misinterpreted as fraternizing with her, or are they themselves (or at least some of them) admirable of her, and more inclined to listen to her point of view and have her point of view influence their decisions in whatever processes they are debating?
In regards to Mishima, was the public reaction not widely felt in the art world? By that film with the Philip Glass music(I cant remember the directors name off the top of my head right now) and other analyses of his life and works; so that it could be said that the public that has influence in the world of art has had a profound response; Whenever i read one of his novels, i read it from two points of view; i try to read it as it would look if he had died naturally of old age in his grandiose furnished manors, and then i read it as a stepping stone towards the inevitable. The first point of view is obviously imaginative and to be honest, a little disappointing. I expect that the intensity is magnified when reading it from the second point of view. So that even the way that i react to his works has been altered by his act.
just because the public cannot rise up and effect change when they see the corruption (because when they do they are met with brute police force) it does not mean that change is not gradually affected through other less obvious channels.
#15174439
You might enjoy this take on Pierce’s semiotic triad to examine what makes a public figure effective or not. It contrasts persons of a similar nature but shows where one succeeds another fails for a lacking.
https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Semiotics_of_Martyrdom.pdf
#15174756
froggo wrote:What I would really like to see is, once Jody has completed whatever tenures are afforded to her henceforward, is I would like her to speak about how the ministers treated her... She is still there, she is still speaking in the sessions; are they avoiding her, not wishing to be misinterpreted as fraternizing with her, or are they themselves (or at least some of them) admirable of her, and more inclined to listen to her point of view and have her point of view influence their decisions in whatever processes they are debating?

Really? All you want is the gossip about how everyone in treating her? Are they nice, do they smile, do they let her play their reindeer games.

Personally, I find this completely uninteresting. I would like to know more about the corruption that is involved in creating "public" policy because that is a subject that affects all of us.

The "her and her feelings and all those creeps" angle of the story belongs on Hollywood Insider, or Oprah.
#15174760
The answer to the question of how they are treating her now would certainly provide insight as to whether or not she did effect change within the institution.
If they are not treating her well, then it shows that she has become a symbol of what not to do , which would mean that, if your superior asks you to do something questionable it is preferable to do it and be silent.
But if they are treating her respectfully and sincerely then it would show that they themselves are contemplating what their own roles are and what responsibility they owe to their constituents.




Also, thanks Wellsy for the comprehensive texts which directly answer my curiosity surrounding martyrdom.
in my mind i often contrast John Lennon with Bob Dylan.
John Lennon was shot and is a 'hero'
Bob Dylan never provided any action towards what he sang about and as Ani DiFranco lyricized "If you don't live by what you sing about your mirror is going to find you"... Dylan's mirror has found him and he apparently just roams around town at night babbling to himself high as a kite... Lennon would presumably have ended up the same way.

If Mishima hadn't done what he had done, he would not have been able to live with himself.
If Jody had not done what she had done she probably would not have been able to live with herself.

What makes it so that others CAN live with themselves for being afraid, or for prefering their present security of comfort?

Look at Derrick Jensen, everyday he says he wakes up and asks himself "should i blow up a bridge today or should i continue writing about blowing up bridges?" Yet he continues to write about blowing up bridges..... what is the divide which separates the ones who know what they ought to do, from those that actually do something?
#15174803
Some people choose martyrdom because, for them, the alternative is even worse. Why is this the case? It probably goes back to issues of self-image, formed from early childhood experiences.
#15174819
Potemky, I'm still reading the temple of the golden pavilion (I know, I'm taking my sweet time, but i have a lot of other reading materials going at once)--- i just read the part where he steps on the prostitutes belly and kills her baby... So i haven't forgotten :P
But so far.... i still think that Spring Snow is more his masterpiece.... that book is stunningly beautiful, Runaway Horses was good as well, but for a different reason.
#15174841
Potemkin wrote:Some people choose martyrdom because, for them, the alternative is even worse. Why is this the case? It probably goes back to issues of self-image, formed from early childhood experiences.

In the Modern West, it's hard for us to comprehend martyrdom because any kind of self-sacrifice goes completely against our learned selfishness and our learned inability to be truly objective.

Our masters have learned to control us by glorifying selfishness. When you visit someone in the West, they show you all the things they recently bought, show you pictures of the places they have recently visited, and share a few "hacks" on how to get more for yourself.

This is so different from a real community and real discussion.

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