BREAKING: Moscow announces END to massive troop buildup near Ukraine - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15168745
@litwin

I agree, right now, Ukraine is "holding the line" against a currently aggressive Russia right now. The soldier in your article stated " It would have been better to go to war as an old man, he confided." It would be better if NOBODY goes to war. However if it HAS TO HAPPEN war is a man's game, it's not a kid's game. Many of the young soldiers you see in most armies are kids still who have much to learn about life and really have no business being there. Nobody really has any business being there but especially 19 year old or 20 year old kids. If somebody has to be there, it needs to be fully grown, wise and mature men who have lived life much longer than what you see in most armies today. But war is very much a man's game. However, war is also an equal opportunity employer too.
#15168747
@litwin

See another thing is that young Ukrainian soldier who survived, he appreciates his country's democratic government more now and what the cost of living in a free society is. I guarantee you, he won't take his country or his government's democracy for granted given the price he paid. Those who haven't paid that price take their country's democracy and their country for granted. I don't take my country or my government's democracy for granted at all. I have only pure love for my country's democracy and my country. That's why I despise people like Donald Trump.

When you pay that price, you do not take any of that for granted. You know what I mean? Plenty of people are willing to throw away a democratic government these days in return for a dictatorship. They have no idea how precious freedom and democracy really is and the price you have to pay to earn it. That Ukrainian soldier is earning the right live in a free, independent country that is democratic. And you can easily lose that right if you take it for granted or just throw it all the way like it is nothing.
Last edited by Politics_Observer on 23 Apr 2021 16:04, edited 1 time in total.
#15168748
B0ycey wrote:Well Russia are well within their rights to train wherever given it is Russian territory. Although clearly the reason they did it by the border was to send a message.

Well, yes, of course. That was kind of my point though. NATO troops quite regularly hold exercises in Estonia and Ukraine for the same purpose - and it is never portrayed as aggressive or provocative (despite the fact NATO is an explicitly anti-Russian alliance which has expanded massively since 1991, and is currently trying to get Ukraine in as well).

Image
Look at all that Russian aggression!

Yet if you listen to foreign policy "experts", Russia, a country with an economy the size of Italy, is a gigantic menace on the verge of sweeping through Europe to create a vast empire of darkness.

It's pure fantasy, and yet for some reason, is taken seriously by people who really should know better. My biggest worry is that these idiots will eventually blunder us into a major war in eastern Europe.
#15168755
Heisenberg wrote:Well, yes, of course. That was kind of my point though. NATO troops quite regularly hold exercises in Estonia and Ukraine for the same purpose - and it is never portrayed as aggressive or provocative.


Sure, I actually knew your point and to some extent agreed with it. The only point I was making was that although the messages are the same, NATO wargames are merely exercises on a hypothetical and Russias actions was a warning to Ukraine of current events. Very much like sailing down the English Channel when they didn't need to a couple of years back was a warning to us. There actions are well within the UN legal mainframe but we shouldn't just brush it off as tit for tat.
#15168768
Heisenberg wrote:Look at all that Russian aggression!


Russian aggression is extreme and trying to justify it, is even more extreme.

There is no justification for Russia to invade, occupy and hold Ukraine, Georgia and several others by the neck just for wanting to trade with the EU.

Russia does not have some entitlement in former Soviet countries that have become independent, to mess them up and keep them in a state of permanent fear and war.
#15168783
B0ycey wrote:Very much like sailing down the English Channel when they didn't need to a couple of years back was a warning to us.

Again, this is an odd interpretation. The English Channel is an international waterway. The Admiral Kusnetsov, Russia's only aircraft carrier and originally stationed in the Barents Sea, was on its way to the Eastern Mediterranean to support an operation against ISIS. Of course it needed to go through the Channel, unless it wanted to add weeks to its journey. The fact that a virulently Russophobic British government interpreted it as being directed at them, doesn't actually mean it was.
#15168788
Heisenberg wrote:Again, this is an odd interpretation. The English Channel is an international waterway. The Admiral Kusnetsov, Russia's only aircraft carrier and originally stationed in the Barents Sea, was on its way to the Eastern Mediterranean to support an operation against ISIS. Of course it needed to go through the Channel, unless it wanted to add weeks to its journey. The fact that a virulently Russophobic British government interpreted it as being directed at them, doesn't actually mean it was.


If anything it puts more time on sailing through the English Channel actually besides how often do you hear about Russia sailing past the busiest waterway on the planet if you think it is a shortcut? Diverting down the North Sea to go towards the Mediterranean when you can sail past Ireland makes no sense unless you want to make a statement and that should be obvious to anyone. Also nobody is claiming Russia isn't in its rights to sail in international waters but you aren't stupid Heisenberg so why are you not seeing that Russia like to flex its muscles within the rules when sending out a message. You know I am not the kind of user who will make things out or interprit things to please my narrative anyway. We are also by and large on the same opinion on this as well I might add. But thinking Russia just coincidentally did this exercise now by their border for no other reason but to for training is ignoring that Russia do these things all the time and it was timed at when Ukraine was pushing Nato membership. Yesterday Russia spelt out their redlines and now they are going back home. In other words they have spoken to the US, got a guarantee of some form that Ukraine aren't getting Nato Membership and as such their message has been heard. Always read between the lines and never what you read in the media. You can understand anyone if you focus on what is happening at the time.
Last edited by B0ycey on 23 Apr 2021 19:15, edited 1 time in total.
#15168789
Politics_Observer wrote:@litwin

I agree, right now, Ukraine is "holding the line" against a currently aggressive Russia right now. The soldier in your article stated " It would have been better to go to war as an old man, he confided." It would be better if NOBODY goes to war. However if it HAS TO HAPPEN war is a man's game, it's not a kid's game. Many of the young soldiers you see in most armies are kids still who have much to learn about life and really have no business being there. Nobody really has any business being there but especially 19 year old or 20 year old kids. If somebody has to be there, it needs to be fully grown, wise and mature men who have lived life much longer than what you see in most armies today. But war is very much a man's game. However, war is also an equal opportunity employer too.

#15168791
Heisenberg wrote:Well, yes, of course. That was kind of my point though. NATO troops quite regularly hold exercises in Estonia and Ukraine for the same purpose - and it is never portrayed as aggressive or provocative (despite the fact NATO is an explicitly anti-Russian alliance which has expanded massively since 1991, and is currently trying to get Ukraine in as well).

Image
Look at all that Russian aggression!

Yet if you listen to foreign policy "experts", Russia, a country with an economy the size of Italy, is a gigantic menace on the verge of sweeping through Europe to create a vast empire of darkness.

It's pure fantasy, and yet for some reason, is taken seriously by people who really should know better. My biggest worry is that these idiots will eventually blunder us into a major war in eastern Europe.


Image
Image
#15168793
B0ycey wrote:If anything it puts more time on going through the English Channel actually besides how often do you hear about Russia sailing past the busiest waterway on the planet if you think it is a shortcut? Diverting down the North Sea to go towards the Mediterranean when you can sail past Ireland makes no sense unless you want to make a statement and that should be obvious to anyone. Also nobody is claiming Russia isn't in its rights to sail in international waters but you aren't stupid Heisenberg so why are you not seeing that Russia like to flex its muscles within the rules when sending out a message. You know I am not the kind of user who will make things out or interprit things to please my narrative anyway. We are also by and large on the same opinion on this as well I might add.

I'm not having a go at you, and I apologise if it came across that way. I agree we're mostly of the same opinion.
#15168794
@litwin

The West and the U.S. has always been behind the power curve when these conflicts get started. Don't get me wrong, we have soldiers who fight very well and who are very brave. And we win plenty of battles too. But winning battles doesn't necessarily win wars either. We always seem to be behind the power curve or caught flat footed when these new wars start. We also have a bad habit of fighting today's wars, like they are yesterday's wars. Today's wars are not yesterdays wars. When the last war ends, the army needs to prepare for the wars of the present and future and be able to fight those wars very well in both the present in the future. Yet it seems when new wars prop up, we fight them like they were yesterdays wars.
#15168803
Politics_Observer wrote:@litwin

The West and the U.S. has always been behind the power curve when these conflicts get started. Don't get me wrong, we have soldiers who fight very well and who are very brave. And we win plenty of battles too. But winning battles doesn't necessarily win wars either. We always seem to be behind the power curve or caught flat footed when these new wars start. We also have a bad habit of fighting today's wars, like they are yesterday's wars. Today's wars are not yesterdays wars. When the last war ends, the army needs to prepare for the wars of the present and future and be able to fight those wars very well in both the present in the future. Yet it seems when new wars prop up, we fight them like they were yesterdays wars.

once U. and Georgia ARE IN NATO , problem will be solved , Moscow empire has to be destroyed
#15168804
Heisenberg wrote:I'm not having a go at you, and I apologise if it came across that way. I agree we're mostly of the same opinion.

Putin is pulling back his Ukraine troop buildup. No surprise. He’s not within a million miles of having the muscle to invade Ukraine. It was all just an attempt at looking strong whenhe’s weak. Now we need to keep up the pressure on Putin and get him to cave on Navalny as well.
#15169002
litwin wrote:Putin is pulling back his Ukraine troop buildup. No surprise. He’s not within a million miles of having the muscle to invade Ukraine. It was all just an attempt at looking strong whenhe’s weak. Now we need to keep up the pressure on Putin and get him to cave on Navalny as well.


The problem is Putin got what he wanted. Sanctions were not tough. The reality is that we need tough economic sanctions from both EU and US on Russia to get the ball rolling in a positive direction. Cutting Russia off fully from international finance and arresting assets of officials and affiliates abroad would be great but is very tricky due to legal justifications.
#15169006
@JohnRawls

A little off topic and I do apologize. I was watching this video where Putin says the US is not a "christian country" anymore. And I am sitting here watching the video and Putin all of the people at the table nodding on. They all look so serious and intent. Never smiling. Which to me, as an American, it's kind of funny in a way. Is this the nature of Estonians too? I find Putin's views on things overly simplistic and because it's overly simplistic, it's funny.

The world according to Putin. I remember when listening to some of our diplomats and generals talked of meeting with Soviet diplomats and generals during the Cold War and they would remark how they all looked so serious and rarely if ever smiled. They had like mean faces. Which it didn't seem that they were aware of that which made it funny. Is this the nature of Estonians as well?

#15169034
JohnRawls wrote:The problem is Putin got what he wanted. Sanctions were not tough. The reality is that we need tough economic sanctions from both EU and US on Russia to get the ball rolling in a positive direction. Cutting Russia off fully from international finance and arresting assets of officials and affiliates abroad would be great but is very tricky due to legal justifications.


You made many good points, I can make it short Iranian sanction will cripple Moscow imperialism in 5 days.
Still do you agree that Moscow imperialism has no chances in a long run?

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#15169038
litwin wrote:You made many good points, I can make it short Iranian sanction will cripple Moscow imperialism in 5 days.
Still do you agree that Moscow imperialism has no chances in a long run?


The problem is that Iran-type sanctions are not even being discussed against Russian aggression in the Ukraine and Georgia and they are not even being discussed for Turkish aggression against EU members Cyprus and Greece. So for non-EU Ukraine and Georgia the future is quite grim as it has been for a while.

In this sense, Russian imperalism has already succeeded as it has imposed a fait accomplis and has created intractable circumstances.

The same way Turkish imperialism has entrenched itself in Cyprus.

Several European countries like Germany, the UK and Spain prefer to coddle up with the aggressors for commercial interests so the main struggle is to convince these countries that invasion in Europe cannot be justified in the service of their petty corporate interests and that the Peace we have enjoyed since 1945 is under grave danger as the principles that hold this peace together are no longer upheld by them.
#15169045
Heisenberg wrote:Yet if you listen to foreign policy "experts", Russia, a country with an economy the size of Italy, is a gigantic menace on the verge of sweeping through Europe to create a vast empire of darkness.


It's a menace to the small weak Eastern European countries of the former SU. That's why they want to be members of NATO. I don't want my country to be a NATO member, but if it were located next to Russia, I 100% would.

Yet some people don't get this very trivial truth.
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