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By Julian658
#15170627
Drlee wrote:@Julian658

What are the others?

I love to tell you, but this is too tedious.
Furthermore, there the possibility you have an idea.
I also suspect you are looking for an angle to call me a racist. Not nice of you Doc.
User avatar
By Wellsy
#15170628
Julian658 wrote:
Spoiler: show
It was not my intention to prove absence of racism when I stated more whites get killed than blacks. I stated that because many people do not know that whites also get shot . A lot of uninformed people somehow assume that it is mostly black people getting shot by the police. The media and black leaders "stay mum" about the subject because they like to stoke racism to get ratings and to get elected to office.

Many crimes are more common among the poor and hence the poor come in contact with the police more often. However, it is not only poverty what increases the chances of being shot by the police. These issues are almost never univariate. Your researcher assumes that black and white poverty are the same and hence any difference in the rate of killings among the poor must be due to racism. I am not trying to deny racism, but black and white poverty are not the same. There are many other variables that were ignored. Let me give you an example: ON the average women earn less than men. Most assume is this is due to sexism. That would be a simplistic univariate analysis. However, the difference in pay is multifactorial and difference in gender is one among many reasons why women earn less than men.

I believe the overwhelming majority of these shootings are related to very poor outdated police training and the fact that America is so violent that the cops themselves are running scared. I am always puzzled as to why some black people put up a fight during arrest. In which planet do they live? One would think a black (or whatever color) person should know by now that it is best to be cooperative with cops. Neil DeGrass Tyson, the famous physicists knows this and is very calm and polite when in contact with the police. If I am stopped by a cop I am incredibly polite, it works every time. I think there is a lot of PTSD in black America regarding the police. This causes the limbic system to take over and at that point there is no reasoning. It is nothing but "fight or flight". And to make matters worse the cops are also in panic mode. The decision to shoot happens in an instant.

A Harvard professor Roland G. Fryer, Jr. published a study on police brutality: He found out that blacks and Hispanics are brutalized much more often than whites------------yes there is racism. However, he found no racial differences with regards to shootings. By the way Roland G. Fryer, Jr is a black gentleman.



Citation:
Roland G. Fryer J. An Empirical Analysis of Racial Differences in Police Use of Force. Journal of Political Economy. Forthcoming.
https://scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/publi ... -use-force


In conclusion, on a proportional basis with regards to population blacks get shot more often. However, blacks come in contact with cops more often for a large variety of reasons and poverty is but one among many.

Fair point, nothing about the post denies any sort of racial bias existing in the shooting of blacks, but I wanted to point out the limitation of considering the raw number in part because sometimes people can sprinkle facts in order to leave the rest to the audience's imagination which can swing in all sorts of ways of course. And a fact left alone does beg for some sort of significance to give it proper context. It is also the case that the is often an emphasis on the fact that white people are killed by police in a dismissive fashion rather than seen as being congruent with a trend of police violence on the basis that it raises the prospect of such violence being seen as normal and without bias.
I mean even if there was some sort of lack of bias in police shootings, police violence could still be a cause for concern, and that people just don't take it as seriously as some.

There is certainly a build-up of a news cycle where there is a new black person in the headlines who has been killed by police which shouldn't be hard as there is someone killed almost every other day.

AGreed, being in poverty contributes to the risk of coming into contact with police and thus the risk of being shot by police but isn't a cause of it. I'm not sure the paper itself is bold in it's conclusion to say the rest of the variance is explained by racial prejudice on the part of the police who act at their discretion in stopping citizens and that.
But it certainly does away with the sense that with some things considered equal, it's not that you simply have a lot of black people in poverty, and thus it explains their shootings wholly either.

Well even when it comes to the term sexism, it is loaded as many reduce things to being a mere disposition or attitude and lose sight of the institutional ways in which people lack the opportunity for somethings but that is normalized for people, naturalizing the status quo rather than considering how one can improve the opportunity for anyone without regard for their demographic.
So I would agree the wage gap isn't simply people being like fuck paying women, but that the wage gap still arises because of many things which structurally inform the likelihood of women not having the same wage earning opportunities.
To help illustrate my point...
https://everydaygeopoliticshouston.wordpress.com/2015/05/03/feminist-discussion-post-2-the-wage-gap-intersectionality-and-the-white-privilege-of-liberal-feminism/
2. The role of choice in shaping the gender wage gap.

So, in thinking about our definition of the wage gap, there are multiple approaches to understanding and explaining it. Many talk about the wage gap using theories of human capital. These people examine the wage gap as a function of characteristics of the worker: unequal education, training, skills, personal choice of occupation, or personality. This is the camp you seem to fall into, since you argue, “men are paid more than women because of their choices.” It’s important to note that this human capital approach is not a denial of the existence of the wage gap however; rather they are just explaining it in a particular way.

In fact, feminist (and non-feminist) interventions into the wage gap often deal with addressing the structural ways that gender norms (not just overt gender discrimination) help produce these outcomes. For example, they discuss how gender ideologies work to route women towards particular jobs, and how occupational sorting impacts the pay gap (Penner 2008). They discuss how women’s uneven childcare responsibilities impact their choice of occupation and ability to advance their career, a pattern that has been dubbed the “motherhood penalty” (Budig and England 2001)—in contrast to evidence that men actually earn a wage premium for fatherhood (Glauber 2008). They also demonstrate how the norms of acceptable gender behavior influence confidence and negotiation stills (Nyhus and Pons 2012; Palomino and Peyrache 2010). As Misra and Murray-Close (2014) argue, the argument that the wage gap is solely a matter of choice and thus no policies are needed to address it is representative of “widespread confusion about the sources of the gender pay gap and a failure to appreciate the extent to which contextual factors, including policy supports for pay equity, condition the impacts of men’s and women’s choices on their earning.” Further, as the AAUW (2015) describes, even though women are more likely to go into disciplines like teaching that are paid less, we still should be asking questions about whether lower wages in female-dominated fields are fair. In this regard, perhaps it’s also worth considering how the gender composition of certain labor fields has also contributed the way that the labor is valued, as fields like teaching are often treated as reproductive labor akin to childrearing (going back to my previous discussion about productive/reproductive labor).

Ultimately, choice is far more complicated than you are acknowledging. One of the problems with this type of faith in a meritocracy (the idea that anyone can be successful if they make good choices and work hard) is that it can lead you to turn a blind eye to the systemic conditions that help produce certain outcomes. In this case, it is leading you to ignore how gendered social systems help produce gendered outcomes in wages, and the ways these outcomes distinctly impact people of color and other marginalized groups (as I discuss in a minute). I’m not saying these systemic conditions wholly determine futures, but dismissing them only allows us to see half of the story. Moreover, it allows us to unproblematically blame people (in this case, women) for their position, rather than critically and compassionately examining the systemic factors that might lead people down certain paths or to make certain choices.

The above being a kind of abstract individualism that ignores the real-world influences upon people's decision making such as how women disproportionately tend to stay at home with children and forgo careers.
A similar thing could occur in the context of police shootings.

I have my reservations about whether the problem can be reduced to police training, it seems a charitable and easy fix for a problem that seems to be much bigger. Maybe it plays a part but then it still is a kind of weak kind of change. Like it has the feel of if we just do this, then everything will be better but I'm not sure how many people are really on board with that being the fix. There seems to be a lot of conflicting ideas of what is wanted and by whom.

I think a lot of people out of fear do go to great lengths to tolerate police, even when the police themselves are aggravating the situation. Like I think of Lt. Caron Nazario's interaction with police and how it seemed to me the police were the ones escalating things.
I think there can be intense feelings in some interactions which is charged for both ends, shit most people get anxious about getting pulled over even if they've done nothing wrong because you expect to get scrutinized and the consequences can be high.

Yeah, I heard about that paper and how it got all controversial for its findings.
Seems there is not anything totally damning about it, other than efforts to argue the sorts of limitations of the study. I think the one that stood out to me was the point about the group of black and white people who are stopped by police may not be identical for an air-tight comparison. Where there isn't an ability to control for bias in the police's discretion in who to stop.
Image
It seems he responded to such criticisms:
"Several scholars have rightly pointed out that these data all begin with an interaction, and suggested that racist policing manifests itself in more interactions between blacks and the police. The impact of this hypothesis in our shootings data seems minimal. The results on police shootings are statistically the same across all call types—ranging from officer-initiated contact with a suspicious person (where racism in whom to police is likely paramount) to a 911 call of a homicide in progress (where interaction with the potential suspect is more likely independent of race)."
https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-the-data-say-about-police-11592845959

Another reason is of course the discretion of police and beyond them is the prejudice of people who call the cops on black people for little more than they're black in a place that they think they don't belong or doing something that doesn't seem 'normal' to their idea of a black person.
Roy Wood Jr. has a good comedic bit about some cashier trying to make him not use a plastic bag for his new iPhone because of the environment, and he explains how the guy just doesn't get why he needs the back and even the recipient to prove to security and the rest of the world he isn't walking out with a stolen iPhone. He needs proof of his purchase because he may get hassled otherwise.

And this is where I would emphasize some of the larger institutional arrangements which help create this sense of a black person doesn't belong here beyond just media representation of the supercriminal and rhetoric of the super-strength black man, is that some people have very little contact or regular engagement with black people.
Part of which is the result of things like economic segregation which reflects the inertia of historically discriminatory practices and even just the status quo reflection of such disparities as things reinforce themselves.
By wat0n
#15170631
But what you mention towards the end of your post, @Wellsy, is not really the responsibility of cops and it's not clear if there's anything they could feasibly do about it besides making sure the call has merits (i.e. that the caller isn't trying to swat someone). That is, in that case there would indeed be discrimination but it would not be on the police's end and would not be something the police can be reasonably expected to be able to easily deal with.

Of course, this also means that there is an obvious open question as to whether the public itself is discriminatory when calling the police and, if so, up to what extent that explains the racial gap in police killings. That's actually a fairly notable contribution by Fryer's paper and the subsequent debate around it. I actually wonder if that's really the case, I have no idea to be honest. I guess it would depend on the locality at hand.

PS: Some other outstanding questions here would be:

1) What percentage of these cases of police use of force are legal/justified?

2) What percentage of interactions, both violent and nonviolent, are directly related to drug offenses (including production, trade and use)?

3) What percentage of interactions, both violent and nonviolent, are indirectly related to drug offenses such as those involving people or organizations who fund themselves through drug production or trade (e.g. gangs)? Gang violence is a major factor behind homicides in large cities so any discussion about these issues needs to consider them into the mix

4) What's the precise role of poverty and general economic wellbeing/development in police interactions and crime? How much of the racial gap is due to confounding with poverty? Is it possible that maybe social and economic policy at as relevant as policing itself? Strangely enough, there isn't much literature that considers both race/ethnicity and income/poverty status in the same paper, particularly not at the individual level (information on individual income/poverty status is harder to get than looking at county or even census tract level of these).
User avatar
By Wellsy
#15170634
wat0n wrote:But what you mention towards the end of your post, @Wellsy, is not really the responsibility of cops and it's not clear if there's anything they could feasibly do about it besides making sure the call has merits (i.e. that the caller isn't trying to swat someone). That is, in that case there would indeed be discrimination but it would not be on the police's end and would not be something the police can be reasonably expected to be able to easily deal with.

Of course, this also means that there is an obvious open question as to whether the public itself is discriminatory when calling the police and, if so, up to what extent that explains the racial gap in police killings. That's actually a fairly notable contribution by Fryer's paper and the subsequent debate around it. I actually wonder if that's really the case, I have no idea to be honest. I guess it would depend on the locality at hand.

I agree, of course the actions of people who misuse emergency services and the broader institutional arrangement are beyond the purview of the police. I don't imagine the prejudice of the public necessarily accounts for a massive proportion of shootings, maybe more for non-lethal force.

However, the concern of my last paragraph and implied in my discussion of the gender pay gap is about arrangements needing greater change than can be achieved in police reform. I guess I just don't see the explanation of such a disparity being due to police incompetence which could be rectified through training.
User avatar
By Drlee
#15170638
I love to tell you, but this is too tedious.
Furthermore, there the possibility you have an idea.
I also suspect you are looking for an angle to call me a racist. Not nice of you Doc.


It is a perfectly legitimate question. You know whether or not your answer is racist. I think you just told us.
User avatar
By Julian658
#15170684
Wellsy wrote:Fair point, nothing about the post denies any sort of racial bias existing in the shooting of blacks, but I wanted to point out the limitation of considering the raw number in part because sometimes people can sprinkle facts in order to leave the rest to the audience's imagination which can swing in all sorts of ways of course. And a fact left alone does beg for some sort of significance to give it proper context. It is also the case that the is often an emphasis on the fact that white people are killed by police in a dismissive fashion rather than seen as being congruent with a trend of police violence on the basis that it raises the prospect of such violence being seen as normal and without bias.
I mean even if there was some sort of lack of bias in police shootings, police violence could still be a cause for concern, and that people just don't take it as seriously as some.

There is certainly a build-up of a news cycle where there is a new black person in the headlines who has been killed by police which shouldn't be hard as there is someone killed almost every other day.

AGreed, being in poverty contributes to the risk of coming into contact with police and thus the risk of being shot by police but isn't a cause of it. I'm not sure the paper itself is bold in it's conclusion to say the rest of the variance is explained by racial prejudice on the part of the police who act at their discretion in stopping citizens and that.
But it certainly does away with the sense that with some things considered equal, it's not that you simply have a lot of black people in poverty, and thus it explains their shootings wholly either.
9/quote]
IMO, the major problems is poor police training.

Watch the murder of three white men with Nordic looks by white officers:

Tony Timpa died in 2016 with a knee to his back for 13 minutes, that is four more minutes than Foyd.


Daniel Shaver is seen crawling and begging before former officer Philip Brailsford murdered him.


Dylan Noble was shot by cops. He received two more slugs while lying moribund on the floor.


If you watch the videos you can only conclude that there is something seriously wrong with police training. As expected these three murders by cop did not make the national news. The reason is that media loves to promote racism for ratings.

I also believe blacks get shot more often on a per capita basis because they have police PTSD and go into "fight or flight". Whites tend to do that less often.

Cops feel their lives are more endangered when dealing with blacks and hence can also go into fight flight mode.






The pay gap is multifactorial and it is real. Men are more willing to stay late, travel, negotiate for a higher salary, and are naturally aggressive (hustlers). Women are saddled by 9 months of pregnancy, motherhood, and naturally prefer a better lifestyle. In other words women do not see the benefit of being a workaholic. Women are smarter and prefer a balanced life. A man can work his ass off and wait till age 50 to settle down and form a family. A woman has to plan a family and children during her fertile years. She does not have the luxury of work hard and wait till age 50 to settle down. And if she does that there is a major price to pay and that is loneliness and no family of her own. Women tend to avoid high paying careers such as engineering, computer science or even specialized construction work. Thankfully in medicine they are equal with men, but they choose to be neurosurgery less often.

MORE LATER
#15170716
Let us see who actually uses drugs more:

    According to the 2003 NSDUH, 38.2% of White young adults 18 to 25 years of age in the U.S. reported any illicit drug use in the past year, followed by African-American (30.6%) and Hispanic (27.5%) young adults (SAMHSA, 2004a). The same race/ethnicity patterns were observed for the past-year prevalence of marijuana use and marijuana use disorders among individuals 18 to 29 years of age according to data from the 2001–2002 National Epidemiological Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions (NESARC; Compton et al., 2004). Further, the past-year prevalence of DSM-IV marijuana use disorders increased significantly between 1991–1992 and 2001–2002, with the greatest increases observed among Hispanic and African-American young adults. In contrast, the prevalence of DSM-IV marijuana use disorders for White young adults did not change significantly over this same time period (Compton et al., 2004).

    Several investigations using data from the College Alcohol Study (CAS), a nationally representative sample of U.S. colleges and universities, examined the individual and college characteristics associated with marijuana and other drug use (e.g., Mohler-Kuo et al., 2003; Strote et al., 2002; Wechsler et al., 2002). For
    example, one study found that approximately three in ten American college students reported using marijuana in the past year (Mohler-Kuo et al., 2003). The study also found that the prevalence of marijuana use was highest for White college students, followed by Hispanic, Asian, and African American students. Other national studies based on the CAS data have found similar racial/ethnic differences in ecstasy use (Strote et al., 2002), heavy episodic drinking (Wechsler et al., 2002), and nonmedical use of prescription stimulants, opioids and benzodiazepines (McCabe et al., 2005a, 2005b; McCabe, 2005). In another national study, Meilman and colleagues (1995) compared illicit drug use rates between a sample of 6,129 students attending Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs) and a sample of 6,129 students attending predominantly White institutions (Meilman et al., 1995). The study found that students from HBCUs reported significantly lower rates of marijuana, cocaine, sedatives, hallucinogens, and other illicit drug use than students at non-HBCUs. Despite evidence for racial/ethnic differences in illicit drug use, there is limited information regarding racial/ethnic differences in drug abuse among college students.

So we know that white people use and abuse drugs more often.

And yet black people are several times more likely to be arrested for drug possession.

If this is true for other crimes, this would mean that there is significant racism in policing.
User avatar
By Julian658
#15170718
Pants-of-dog wrote:Let us see who actually uses drugs more:

    According to the 2003 NSDUH, 38.2% of White young adults 18 to 25 years of age in the U.S. reported any illicit drug use in the past year, followed by African-American (30.6%) and Hispanic (27.5%) young adults (SAMHSA, 2004a). The same race/ethnicity patterns were observed for the past-year prevalence of marijuana use and marijuana use disorders among individuals 18 to 29 years of age according to data from the 2001–2002 National Epidemiological Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions (NESARC; Compton et al., 2004). Further, the past-year prevalence of DSM-IV marijuana use disorders increased significantly between 1991–1992 and 2001–2002, with the greatest increases observed among Hispanic and African-American young adults. In contrast, the prevalence of DSM-IV marijuana use disorders for White young adults did not change significantly over this same time period (Compton et al., 2004).

    Several investigations using data from the College Alcohol Study (CAS), a nationally representative sample of U.S. colleges and universities, examined the individual and college characteristics associated with marijuana and other drug use (e.g., Mohler-Kuo et al., 2003; Strote et al., 2002; Wechsler et al., 2002). For
    example, one study found that approximately three in ten American college students reported using marijuana in the past year (Mohler-Kuo et al., 2003). The study also found that the prevalence of marijuana use was highest for White college students, followed by Hispanic, Asian, and African American students. Other national studies based on the CAS data have found similar racial/ethnic differences in ecstasy use (Strote et al., 2002), heavy episodic drinking (Wechsler et al., 2002), and nonmedical use of prescription stimulants, opioids and benzodiazepines (McCabe et al., 2005a, 2005b; McCabe, 2005). In another national study, Meilman and colleagues (1995) compared illicit drug use rates between a sample of 6,129 students attending Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs) and a sample of 6,129 students attending predominantly White institutions (Meilman et al., 1995). The study found that students from HBCUs reported significantly lower rates of marijuana, cocaine, sedatives, hallucinogens, and other illicit drug use than students at non-HBCUs. Despite evidence for racial/ethnic differences in illicit drug use, there is limited information regarding racial/ethnic differences in drug abuse among college students.

So we know that white people use and abuse drugs more often.

And yet black people are several times more likely to be arrested for drug possession.

If this is true for other crimes, this would mean that there is significant racism in policing.

POD

We can all agree that racism exists. How many times are you going to try and prove it?

By the way, the National Basketball Association (NBA) is 90% black and whites are 65% of the population. That means that the NBA must be racist. Is that correct POD?
#15170719
@Julian658

You seem to have no point.

————————

Now that we have established that there is racism in policing, what should the US and similar countries do about it?
User avatar
By Julian658
#15170725
Pants-of-dog wrote:@Julian658

You seem to have no point.

————————

Now that we have established that there is racism in policing, what should the US and similar countries do about it?

What do you suggest?
#15170735
wat0n wrote:Why limit the analysis to 18 to 25 years old?


I do not know why the author(s) decided that. Is it relevant?

----------------

Julian658 wrote:What do you suggest?


I suggest listening to black people and doing what they suggest.
By wat0n
#15170736
Pants-of-dog wrote:I do not know why the author(s) decided that. Is it relevant?


Actually, yes, we don't know if the pattern holds for the whole populations at hand.

It would also be interesting to see if there are differences in the patterns of use that may be related to arrests (such as the drugs used or where they are used, for example). It would also be interesting to see what percentage of the differences in overall arrests are directly explained by drug offenses.
User avatar
By Julian658
#15170737
Pants-of-dog wrote:I suggest listening to black people and doing what they suggest.


Should I listen to these two black men?
By late
#15170739
Julian658 wrote:
Should I listen to these two black men?



If it were possible, I would say get real.

If someone else wanted to, there is a small army of Black historians, legal experts, medical scientists, and lots more, and their grasp on reality is superb.
User avatar
By Julian658
#15170741
late wrote:If it were possible, I would say get real.

If someone else wanted to, there is a small army of Black historians, legal experts, medical scientists, and lots more, and their grasp on reality is superb.


OK, what should we do?

BTW, I do not think the historians grasp reality with regards to the present. The knowledge with regards to the past injustices is superb and recited chapter and verse very often. But, what do we do today? We have come a long way since the 1950s. What do we do now? Rehashing the past is great, but we need new guidelines to this era. So i ask:

What are the main problems and what are the best solutions?

Please don't say many black men are in prison. We all know that. How do we fix that problem?

Don't say there are a few black CEOs. That is BS. It does nothing for the little guy. From a mathematical standpoint the average white dude has the same chance to be a top CEO as a homeless person. Let's not measure success according to the Bill Gates of the world.

How about average wealth difference between black and white people? Now there is a difference that needs work. How do we fix that? Any suggestions?

I want to hear practical solutions. I know POD will stay mum, but maybe you can come up with something new. We need a new direction
Last edited by Julian658 on 04 May 2021 18:33, edited 1 time in total.
By late
#15170745
Julian658 wrote:
OK, what should we do?



You've asked before, I've answered, more than once.

And if I do, we will be right back here again in a week or two.



"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters."

Alan K. Simpson
User avatar
By Julian658
#15170746
late wrote:You've asked before, I've answered, more than once.

And if I do, we will be right back here again in a week or two.



"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters."

Alan K. Simpson

Other than more subway stops you propose the same old failed ideas late. I want to hear new ideas. Obviously the old ideas are not working.
By late
#15170749
Julian658 wrote:
I want to hear new ideas.





"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters."

Alan K. Simpson
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