Medical professionals unload on anti-vaxxers - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15170860
The medical profession bears quite a lot of responsibility for the rise of anti-vax sentiment, and I honestly think we'd all be much better served if doctors would show a little humility, admit their mistakes over the years and stop being so insufferably smug.

First off, the Lancet did in fact publish Andrew Wakefield's nonsense "study" claiming a link between MMR and autism. They even published a follow up paper by his group two years later. Yes, they retracted them both... In 2010, well after the damage had already been done.

At the same time, "medical professionals" were going around insisting that Oxycontin wasn't addictive (based on absolutely nothing!) and handing out opioids like skittles. This, of course, was also only about 30 years after they had cheerfully prescribed Thalidomide as a safe medicine to treat morning sickness in pregnant mothers.

And that's before we even get to the more recent nonsense of noisily publicising a tiny number of blood clotting cases after some of the Covid vaccines, and making a huge show of halting their use in some cases (AstraZeneca in EU countries and Johnson & Johnson in the US).

I'm not an anti-vaxxer by any stretch (in fact, I just had my second dose on Sunday). But doctors continuing to act like their profession's historical (and continuing) actions have had nothing to do with the rise of this phenomenon is incredibly annoying to watch.
#15170862
Heisenberg wrote:And that's before we even get to the more recent nonsense of noisily publicising a tiny number of blood clotting cases after some of the Covid vaccines, and making a huge show of halting their use in some cases (AstraZeneca in EU countries and Johnson & Johnson in the US).

I'm not an anti-vaxxer by any stretch (in fact, I just had my second dose on Sunday). But doctors continuing to act like their profession's historical (and continuing) actions have had nothing to do with the rise of this phenomenon is incredibly annoying to watch.


I would echo this. I am not an anti-vaxxer either and advice everyone to take the vaccine when offered to them. But we haven't done ourselves any favors in promoting this have we? Not only did we have to enact a "emergency" approval for the vaccines to be administered because we panicked from the start and couldn't dig ourselves out of our over reaction, the biggest clusterfuck is to say we are at risk of blood clots and shut down the roll out of AZ and J&J due to a probability of 1 in a million. Let that sink in. One in a million. You cannot blame anyone for being skeptical taking the vaccine considering we can't help but spread the fear in things throughout this pandemic. Honesty would have gone far if we had done that from the start I would say.
#15170864
Heisenberg wrote:The medical profession bears quite a lot of responsibility for the rise of anti-vax sentiment, and I honestly think we'd all be much better served if doctors would show a little humility, admit their mistakes over the years and stop being so insufferably smug.

You're asking the impossible @Heisenberg.
#15170866
Heisenberg wrote:
But doctors continuing to act like their profession's historical (and continuing) actions have had nothing to do with the rise of this phenomenon is incredibly annoying to watch.



When I was a young child in the 1950s, sometimes my grandparents friends would come over and talk about the people that passed. Many died from things that medical science has exterminated, or controlled so effectively you wouldn't know anyone that had had it.

It was a real education.

Medical science is astonishing, so astonishing some have come to expect perfection.

If I had been in that video, my response would have been much, much stronger and harsher.

Get over yourself.
#15170867
Wellsy wrote:
Doctors need to engage communities at their level to develop trust instead of profess from above.



To quote your article, "The barbarians are inside the gates." The systematic disruption of truth and trust is beyond what a Doc is going to be able to deal with. That's a national problem, and will demand a vigorous response to deal with the cause.
#15170869
late wrote:To quote your article, "The barbarians are inside the gates." The systematic disruption of truth and trust is beyond what a Doc is going to be able to deal with. That's a national problem, and will demand a vigorous response to deal with the cause.

A large change is indeed well beyond any individual doctors means but the initiative of a doctor to problem solve and try to build trust through respected members in the community may be what is needed if one wants things to change. The distrust in medicine is but one consequence of a general loss of trust in the public.

Its the same thing with teachers and parents, there needs to be qualities that establish trust and rapport as one cannot rely purely on ones medical expertise as they’re dealing with people socially and not only physically/medically. Change only comes through such cultivated community relations. The hard part is particularly reaching those who feel burned or distrustful by doctors. But I don’t see anyway around the hard leg work of trying to establish oneself in communities in some way or have their views mediated by respected community members.

In regards to the cause I primarily speculate its the expansion of market exchange or commodification of human relations. It breakdown the traditional norms which can be repressive but it also breaks the strong social ties which make up a community.
Research explores it quantitatively through the nebulous concept of social capital but there needs to be a pushback on the encroachment of economics upon the social fabric. It is something which precisely cannot be bought and sold and is irreplaceable as any relationship between people, such is the nature of trust between people.
Last edited by Wellsy on 05 May 2021 12:58, edited 1 time in total.
#15170870
late wrote:When I was a young child in the 1950s, sometimes my grandparents friends would come over and talk about the people that passed. Many died from things that medical science has exterminated, or controlled so effectively you wouldn't know anyone that had had it.

It was a real education.

Medical science is astonishing, so astonishing some have come to expect perfection.

Congratulations on completely missing the point.

Medical science has indeed made incredible advances in the past few hundred years. It does not mean that doctors are modern day saints who never make mistakes and are entitled to be trusted without question.

Do you really think there is no connection between the opioid crisis, for example, and the anti-vax movement?

Of course, the opioid crisis was not a failure of medical science. It was caused by typical human failures: greed, group-think and denial. The problem is that doctors are just as susceptible to these vices as anyone else, and pretending they are infallible paragons of virtue does no one any favours. It certainly wont be persuasive to the sort of person who is susceptible to anti-vax talking points.

late wrote:If I had been in that video, my response would have been much, much stronger and harsher.

Get over yourself.

Let's just say it's a good thing you aren't in charge of any public health initiatives, then. ;)
#15170948
late wrote:Medical science is astonishing, so astonishing some have come to expect perfection.

There are many things medical science doesn't do well at. Heisenberg is correct in pointing out that many in the field become insufferably smug. I had a friend who had pneumonia and shingles vaccines at the same time and came down with transverse myelitis, and couldn't walk. He's a lot better now, but says without either alcohol or pain killers, he has what feels like an electrical storm in his back. It would not surprise me if some combinations of vaccines lead to an autoimmune response that causes some people to develop autism.

late wrote:If I had been in that video, my response would have been much, much stronger and harsher.

That would only make the problem worse.

late wrote:We need to get to herd immunity. That means we're going to have to get real.

It may be that we need to face the fact that coronavirus may be with us forever.
#15170957
late wrote:When I was a young child in the 1950s, sometimes my grandparents friends would come over and talk about the people that passed. Many died from things that medical science has exterminated, or controlled so effectively you wouldn't know anyone that had had it.

It was a real education.

Medical science is astonishing, so astonishing some have come to expect perfection.

If I had been in that video, my response would have been much, much stronger and harsher.

Get over yourself.


Medicine is still in the bloodletting stage when compared to mathematics, physics, and chemistry. Sure, there is progress, but compared to other sciences medicine is still primitive. Docs still use radiation to treat malignant tumors and in the process cause harm to adjacent healthy tissue. These days they cause less harm with software guided stereotactic radiation, however, it is not a cakewalk for many patients. Chemotherapy and immunotherapy cause horrendous side effects and with few exceptions most cancers are not cured. The improvement is evident but 300 years from now this era will be described as barbaric. Nevertheless the progress has been astounding.
Last edited by Julian658 on 06 May 2021 03:11, edited 1 time in total.
#15170966
blackjack21 wrote:

It may be that we need to face the fact that coronavirus may be with us forever.





We need to slow down the mutation rate by controlling the transmission rate.

We could be one mutation from hundreds of millions dead, and if you don't care about that, it would also devastate the world economy.
#15170971
blackjack21 wrote:
It may be that we need to face the fact that coronavirus may be with us forever.


Then we will have to get used to getting poked in the arm at least every year. We all must accept the fact that we will always have to monitor our health for symptoms.

One thing that the medical world and the political world has been good at so far has been spreading the info about what COVID 19 symptoms are like. Most people can recognize at least some of the symptoms and people are using sanitizer. Now if they could have a widespread campaign on the importance of exercise or cleaning one's teeth daily, that would be wonderful too!
#15170998
late wrote:We could be one mutation from hundreds of millions dead, and if you don't care about that, it would also devastate the world economy.

Let me get this straight: you think I don't care if hundreds of millions of people die, but I do care about the economy? Is that the nature of your argument? The global population is set to peak mid-century and then begin to decline. Some countries will experience declining populations soon, such as Japan, China and Russia.

China to report first population drop in five decades -FT

We are already experiencing an aging global population. So the risks are fairly high anyway. Will that devastate the economy? Covid tends to kill people in their late 70s and older. It strikes me as a very convenient disease for those concerned about Social Security and Medicare budgets.

What I find odd about these sort of fearmongering arguments is that people who complain about overpopulation and climate change then complain about a dramatic reduction in the carbon footprint in the case of a pandemic that kills large portions of the population. Why isn't covid a good thing in your mind?

MistyTiger wrote:Then we will have to get used to getting poked in the arm at least every year.

I'd bet that a lot of people will opt not to get vaccinated. I'm getting my second dose next week. Pfizer.
#15171027
blackjack21 wrote:
Let me get this straight: you think I don't care if hundreds of millions of people die, but I do care about the economy? Is that the nature of your argument? The global population is set to peak mid-century and then begin to decline. Some countries will experience declining populations soon, such as Japan, China and Russia.


We are already experiencing an aging global population. So the risks are fairly high anyway. Will that devastate the economy? Covid tends to kill people in their late 70s and older. It strikes me as a very convenient disease for those concerned about Social Security and Medicare budgets.

What I find odd about these sort of fearmongering arguments is that people who complain about overpopulation and climate change then complain about a dramatic reduction in the carbon footprint in the case of a pandemic that kills large portions of the population. Why isn't covid a good thing in your mind?


I'd bet that a lot of people will opt not to get vaccinated. I'm getting my second dose next week. Pfizer.



Thanks for demonstrating your (complete lack of) concern.

The potential is there for the sort of lethality we saw in the first flu epidemic, which killed lots and lots of young people... A popular idea back then was to get roaring drunk when it started. Which may make sense, the booze should interfere with a cytokine storm. In any case, that's what Gramp did, and woke up a week later in the morgue.

Covid isn't a good thing because killing is not a good thing.
#15171785
late wrote:Covid isn't a good thing because killing is not a good thing.

Killing is sometimes a very good thing. Killing Nazis during World War II was a good thing. Killing malaria-carrying mosquitos is a good thing. As an abstract idea, killing is neither a good nor a bad thing. It is who you kill, and in what context, which can be either good or bad.
#15171791
Anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers and conspiracy nuts aren't very smart people and are usually wrong, but i'm also glad there's people out there who question the consensus. Like the people who question 9/11. I don't think 9/11 was a conspiracy, but there's countless reasons not to trust our governments and believe something like that could happen because false flags have happened before.

Are the sheep who go and let their government inject them with vaccines without ever questioning anything any less dangerous or stupid?
#15171805
Potemkin wrote:
Killing is sometimes a very good thing. Killing Nazis during World War II was a good thing. Killing malaria-carrying mosquitos is a good thing. As an abstract idea, killing is neither a good nor a bad thing. It is who you kill, and in what context, which can be either good or bad.



Good grief...

That was the short version, and I shouldn't need to explain something that obvious (although I wind up doing it literally every day).

Look at the way Covid rampaged through Italy, and is savaging India right now. We narrowly escaped the disease overwhelming our medical system. Even at that, we'll being paying the price for our incompetence for decades.
#15171806
Unthinking Majority wrote:

Are the sheep who go and let their government inject them with vaccines without ever questioning anything any less dangerous or stupid?



There's always bleach...

As someone that has had f***ing polio, getting vaccinated is smart.

Side effects pop up immediately, or in a matter of weeks, typically. This is a whole new way of making vaccine, and the news so far is that it's extraordinarily safe. Even with the Johnson, the odds are less than a million to one. They are dramatically worse without the vaccine, and those side effects can be managed. Which the medical community should be talking about, in for a penny, in for a pound...

The paranoia is paranoid...
Last edited by late on 11 May 2021 13:18, edited 1 time in total.

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