Who Russians blame for Escalation in Donbass - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15171131
Politics_Observer wrote:@Potemkin

That's like arguing that the southern United States, which seceded from the Union had a "right to self determination." Those southerners owed loyalty to the United States and hence the Union was right in retaking the south back by force. Just as the Russians living in Crimea and Donbass owe loyalty to Ukraine and thus Ukraine is right in taking back by force it's territory. Those southerners had a voice in the U.S. government before seceding and could vote, just as the Russians in Ukraine.

The Anglo settlers in Texas owed loyalty to Mexico; after all, they were there at Mexico's invitation. What right did they have to steal Mexico's territory - which had belonged to it for centuries - by seceding? :eh:
#15171140
Potemkin wrote:The Anglo settlers in Texas owed loyalty to Mexico; after all, they were there at Mexico's invitation. What right did they have to steal Mexico's territory - which had belonged to it for centuries - by seceding? :eh:


To be clear, there was a multi-state/region revolt across Mexico at the time. Mexico was successful in rebuffing the various other states/regions, but failed with Tejas. Those other regions did not have many anglos.

Not that it changes your statement all that much. :lol:
#15171151
@Rancid @Potemkin

So was the U.S. wrong from suppressing the south from it's attempt to secede from the Union? What about Russian suppression of Chechen separatism? Hasn't Chechnya always belonged to the Chechens? Was it wrong too? If not, then why is it wrong for Ukraine to stop Russian separatism in Ukraine?
#15171153
Politics_Observer wrote:@Rancid @Potemkin

So was the U.S. wrong from suppressing the south from it's attempt to secede from the Union? What about Russian suppression of Chechen separatism? Hasn't Chechnya always belonged to the Chechens? Was it wrong too? If not, then why is it wrong for Ukraine to stop Russian separatism in Ukraine?


Maybe the answer is, there is no right or wrong here. It's just a big game, and whoever wins... wins.
#15171154
Politics_Observer wrote:@Rancid @Potemkin

So was the U.S. wrong from suppressing the south from it's attempt to secede from the Union? What about Russia suppression of Chechen separatism? Was it wrong too? If not, then why is not wrong for Ukraine to stop Russian separatism in Ukraine?


The discussion was Texas not the US civil war. Neither commented on the South declaring independence from the North. So can we get some consistence from you. Do you support Mexico getting nuclear weapons to regain Texas? Yes or no?
#15171156
Politics_Observer wrote:@Rancid @Potemkin

So was the U.S. wrong from suppressing the south from it's attempt to secede from the Union? What about Russian suppression of Chechen separatism? Hasn't Chechnya always belonged to the Chechens? Was it wrong too? If not, then why is it wrong for Ukraine to stop Russian separatism in Ukraine?

Ultimately, to comes down to whether or not they can win. The South, realistically, could not win the American Civil War - they lacked the manpower and the industrial base to be able to do so. Likewise, Chechnya could not prevail against Russia, especially once Putin took over. Crimea is now a de facto part of Russia, as it was in the past. The victors get to write history, and victory is always its own justification. And yes, this means that Texas was 'right' to secede from Mexico. They did it because they could, and that victory is its own justification. Defend your own territory, or have it snatched from you.
#15171159
@Potemkin

Potemkin wrote: Defend your own territory, or have it snatched from you.


Which is why smaller nations should acquire and be prepared to use nuclear weapons against bigger and stronger nations who seek to take territory from smaller nations. It makes sense, from the point of view of the smaller nation, wouldn't you agree? But if we step back and think about this for a moment, isn't this paradigm today in the nuclear age of "might makes right" dangerous and could end up destroying mankind in a nuclear war triggered by such a scenario where smaller nations arm themselves with nuclear weapons to defend their territory? Such a scenario could drag in bigger nations who are also armed with these weapons too.
#15171164
Politics_Observer wrote:@Potemkin



Which is why smaller nations should acquire and be prepared to use nuclear weapons against bigger and stronger nations who seek to take territory from smaller nations. It makes sense, from the point of view of the smaller nation, wouldn't you agree?

No, actually I think it's fucking suicidal. :eh:

But if we step back and think about this for a moment, isn't this paradigm today in the nuclear age of "might makes right" dangerous and could end up destroying mankind in a nuclear war triggered by such a scenario where smaller nations arm themselves with nuclear weapons to defend their territory? Such a scenario could drag in bigger nations who are also armed with these weapons too.

Precisely why I think it's fucking suicidal. If Ukraine and Russia start lobbing nukes at each other, who do you think is going to come off worst? :eh:
#15171167
@Potemkin

Why should Ukraine care if their territorial integrity isn't really respected in the first place? They have to defend their land and it make an attack on their land from Russia or anybody as costly as possible to the attacker and nuclear weapons exact a tremendous cost on an aggressor even if it is Russia. Russia has stated it would use nuclear weapons when the survival of the state is at stake and I am sure the Ukrainians feel the same way about their state. They might as well take as many Russians with them and a few of their cities for the crime of taking land that doesn't belong to them. Not to mention, this could be suicidal for Russia too as this could drag in other nuclear powers as well if Russia and Ukraine start lobbing nukes at each other. So you see where this "might makes right" mentality that Russia has decided to partaken in can lead to?
#15171168
Politics_Observer wrote:@Potemkin

Why should Ukraine care if their territorial integrity isn't really respected in the first place? Russia has stated it would use nuclear weapons when the survival of the state is at stake and I am sure the Ukrainians feel the same way. They might as well take as many Russians with them and a few of their cities for the crime of taking land that doesn't belong to them.

The Ukrainians are going to drown in fire and blood over Crimea? It's not even their fucking heartland - it belonged to Russia for centuries before that drunken clown Khrushchev just signed it over to Ukraine in the 1950s. You are seriously recommending that Ukraine should commit national suicide over that shithole? :eh:

Not to mention, this could be suicidal for Russia too as this could drag in other nuclear powers as well.

So now you want a global nuclear holocaust. Over Crimea? :eh:

So you see where this "might makes right" mentality that Russia has decided to partaken in can lead to?

The only person suggesting that a nuclear exchange between Ukraine and Russia would be a good idea seems to be you. :eh:
#15171169
@Potemkin

You are missing the point. I in no way advocating a global nuclear holocaust. However, looking at it from the Ukrainians point of view and if you listen to Ukrainian politicians, they talk about getting nuclear weapons now and I believe them. I believe they want them. Now whether they actually get them is another story.

What I am illustrating to you is what these actions can lead to. YES, a global nuclear holocaust can happen over something as small as Crimea for example. It almost happened over Cuba back in 1962 and we were pretty lucky it didn't happen. We very close to ending mankind in 1962 all over Cuba. Cuba feared an invasion from the U.S. What makes you think it would be any different when it comes to Russia invading a smaller power like Ukraine and how that could propel them to get nuclear weapons and set off a chain reaction which you know could very well end up in a global holocaust that destroys mankind. ALLLL because of this mentality by the bigger powers that might makes right.

We can't afford to have such a poisonous mentality today in the nuclear age. This scenario and series of chain reactions could very well happen in reality. This is why the whole "might makes right" mentality is dangerous where stronger people or stronger countries feel entitled to violate the rights of smaller and weaker people and nations. it could set off a chain reaction of events that lead to disaster or perhaps even the destruction of mankind.

This isn't 1914 anymore. Millions died ALL over the death of Archduke Francis Ferdinand and mankind could be literally completely destroyed and wiped out all over something like Crimea and a "might makes right" mentality that exists in bigger, stronger nations today. The point that I am trying to make is that "might doesn't make right" when viewed in this context. Invasions by bigger countries like Russia for example, encourage smaller nations to seek nuclear weapons which is this is why you should be concerned about nuclear weapons proliferation and how it poses a serious threat to the very survival of mankind.

This is precisely the sort of thing the scientists who exploded the first atomic bomb during the Manhatten Project here in the U.S. feared and foresaw. This why one of the scientists, J Robert Openhiemer stated "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds..."
#15171177
Politics_Observer wrote:So was the U.S. wrong from suppressing the south from it's attempt to secede from the Union? What about Russian suppression of Chechen separatism?

The US was right in suppressing the south separatists, and Russia is right in suppressing the south separatists.

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