Putin’s oriental imperialism turns European neighbors into enemies - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15171233
litwin wrote:dont write so long texts, all your arguments I saw many years ago on TV.ru , bunch of lies and manipulations. do you know that Iran has more oil than Muscovy ? do what we fa&ked it anyway , Gasprom arguments dont work since LNG revolution . as i expected you answer is no Iranian - sanctions on Moscow , but dont worry, we will introduce them anyway . Down to Moscow horde, down to Juchi despotism , Long Live Euro- Atlantic civilization !


Do you have a bipolar disease or something? Iran has more oil in the same sense as Venezuela. Theoretically its there but nobody is extracting or delivering it yet anywhere so its a mute point. Nor does anybody know what is the real price to do that.

Also Putins regime is not Juchi though. Putins regime is definitely more or less based on the Italian Mussolini fascist model when it comes to economy and some of the social and cultural questions.
#15171236
JohnRawls wrote:Do you have a bipolar disease or something? Iran has more oil in the same sense as Venezuela. Theoretically its there but nobody is extracting or delivering it yet anywhere so its a mute point. Nor does anybody know what is the real price to do that.

Also Putins regime is not Juchi though. Putins regime is definitely more or less based on the Italian Mussolini fascist model when it comes to economy and some of the social and cultural questions.


"Theoretically its there but nobody is extracting or delivering " this what we are gonna do with stolen from Siberians oil/gas. our problem was a lack of willpower , but we get over it
https://ecfr.eu/article/why-attempts-to ... ways-fail/



I see a lot of similarities with Italian Mussolini fascist model , but it doesn´t change the fact that Muscovy (under different names) has always been a mongol ulus (empire)
https://jsis.washington.edu/ellisoncent ... tate-1.pdf
https://www.rbth.com/history/332313-mon ... sia-formed
#15171253
litwin wrote:"Theoretically its there but nobody is extracting or delivering " this what we are gonna do with stolen from Siberians oil/gas. our problem was a lack of willpower , but we get over it
https://ecfr.eu/article/why-attempts-to ... ways-fail/



I see a lot of similarities with Italian Mussolini fascist model , but it doesn´t change the fact that Muscovy (under different names) has always been a mongol ulus (empire)
https://jsis.washington.edu/ellisoncent ... tate-1.pdf
https://www.rbth.com/history/332313-mon ... sia-formed


What is your argument? If we cut off Russian oil and gas we need to substitute it straight away with something otherwise where are we going to get electricity and production materials. If your argument is that our factories and other facilities need to wait couple of years for the logistics centers and infrastructure to be built and for producers to ramp up production than it is not an argument at all. Nobody is going to agree to that. Not only that we will just distabilise ourselves and the people will be severely pissed. That is not how democracies work.

By the way, Ukraine will suffer the most from this because we have some alternatives that are not enough and we produce a lot of green energy. Ukraine on the other hand will be royally fucked because you are very dependant on that Russian oil and gas that you buy from Europe but essentially it is Russian oil and gas. If its gone then there will be nothing for you to buy. Also Ukraine will not get any transit money anymore. Which is also a significant chunk of Ukraines budget.
#15171310
JohnRawls wrote:What is your argument? If we cut off Russian oil and gas we need ...

By the way, Ukraine will ...

I told you I know Muscovite language and your TV.ru narrative "world can´t survive without Muscovite empire" i know very well, our experts have proved it as pure BS 100 times, for example Andrei Piontkovsky works on this for years , google him or use FB and ask him directly . ask yourself how world served collapse British, French, Spanish empires ?


dont worry about Ukrainians , they pretty much like Albanians in 90s ´d like to see Moscow in flames , cos Asiatic Moscow waves a genocidal war on them . something what the mongols always do
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... _in_Russia
#15171324
litwin wrote:I told you I know Muscovite language and your TV.ru narrative "world can´t survive without Muscovite empire" i know very well, our experts have proved it as pure BS 100 times, for example Andrei Piontkovsky works on this for years , google him or use FB and ask him directly . ask yourself how world served collapse British, French, Spanish empires ?


dont worry about Ukrainians , they pretty much like Albanians in 90s ´d like to see Moscow in flames , cos Asiatic Moscow waves a genocidal war on them . something what the mongols always do
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... _in_Russia


You are unable to take any critisism of your ideas, so why do you try to debate anything here?

If you are unable to take critisism then there is no real implementation of any of your ideas because everyone will just think that you are crazy. Even if some of your ideas are not bad. You already forgot that I told you that banking sanctions are okay which is far more scarier for Russia. In reality oil and gas are just secondary.

Politics lives in the realm of the possible. Some of your ideas are impossible due to many factors. Even if you wish it to be so, it can't materialise out of nothing.
#15171435
JohnRawls wrote:You are unable to take any critisism of your ideas, so why do you try to debate anything here?

If you are unable to take critisism then there is no real implementation of any of your ideas because everyone will just think that you are crazy. Even if some of your ideas are not bad. You already forgot that I told you that banking sanctions are okay which is far more scarier for Russia. In reality oil and gas are just secondary.

Politics lives in the realm of the possible. Some of your ideas are impossible due to many factors. Even if you wish it to be so, it can't materialise out of nothing.

"critisism of your ideas" is one thing , promote here the TV.ru narratives another thing. as i and all other experts say that we dont need to cut Moscow from our cash in one day, the experts have already the plan of blooding out Moscow ulus .
your/TV.ru that Muscovy is different (more important ) than Iran or Congo is BS for us (Free World)

Image
#15171436
litwin wrote:"critisism of your ideas" is one thing , promote here the TV.ru narratives another thing. as i and all other experts say that we dont need to cut Moscow from our cash in one day, the experts have already the plan of blooding out Moscow ulus .
your/TV.ru that Muscovy is different (more important ) than Iran or Congo is BS for us (Free World)

Image


You have posted this 10 times by now. Not everything that Russian agitprop says is untrue. The oil and gas argument is more or less true if they say what I say.
#15171439
JohnRawls wrote:You have posted this 10 times by now. Not everything that Russian agitprop says is untrue. The oil and gas argument is more or less true if they say what I say.


Russian invasion in Europe demands total sanctions against Russia.

Anything less is a betrayal to the Ukrainian people.

Europe has a very bad habit of betrayal(that goes back decades and centuries) which it ultimately needs to resolve if it wants to survive because no organization(.ie EU, NATO) that betrays both its own members and prospective members can survive.

It is not possible, neither in practice and not even in theory.
#15171443
noemon wrote:Russian invasion in Europe demands total sanctions against Russia.

Anything less is a betrayal to the Ukrainian people.

Europe has a very bad habit of betrayal(that goes back decades and centuries) which it ultimately needs to resolve if it wants to survive because no organization(.ie EU, NATO) that betrays both its own members and prospective members can survive.

It is not possible, neither in practice and not even in theory.


I understand what you are implying but how can it be done right now? (By right now, I mean this second. If you are going to say that we need to build infrastructure and after 3 years cut them off then how do we convince people to invest?) Cutting Russian Oil and Gas will have the same affect on the European economy as the oil crisis did back in the 70s. And that is at the least. World economy will just suffer to a bit lesser degree.
#15171451
JohnRawls wrote:I understand what you are implying but how can it be done right now? (By right now, I mean this second. If you are going to say that we need to build infrastructure and after 3 years cut them off then how do we convince people to invest?) Cutting Russian Oil and Gas will have the same affect on the European economy as the oil crisis did back in the 70s. And that is at the least. World economy will just suffer to a bit lesser degree.


The decision to do what is necessary was due yesterday since 2014 at the very least. These superlatives only exist in narrative form to justify these betrayals and prolong the intentional indecision.

Gas can be bought in LNG form and other suppliers can cover the Russian shortfall. You do not maintain a relationship with an enemy sending tanks at you.

Unless full sanctions are imposed, there is no chance of Russia retreating its army and separatists from the Ukraine and the same goes for Turkey in Cyprus. There is simply no incentive for Putin or Erdogan to back off.

So the talk about mild sanctions is about appeasement and essentially tacitly approving of military aggression and occupation thus enabling it as the only possible solution thus prolonging the theatre of war and occupation forces.
#15171458
noemon wrote:The decision to do what is necessary was due yesterday since 2014 at the very least. These superlatives only exist in narrative form to justify these betrayals and prolong the intentional indecision.

Gas can be bought in LNG form and other suppliers can cover the Russian shortfall. You do not maintain a relationship with an enemy sending tanks at you.

Unless full sanctions are imposed, there is no chance of Russia retreating its army and separatists from the Ukraine and the same goes for Turkey in Cyprus. There is simply no incentive for Putin or Erdogan to back off.

So the talk about mild sanctions is about appeasement and essentially tacitly approving of military aggression and occupation thus enabling it as the only possible solution thus prolonging the theatre of war and occupation forces.





"Politics lives in the realm of the possible", John Rawls stated a few messages above. And there is much truth to that. Western European countries remain democracies, meaning one cannot simply ignore how the voters in those countries will react to the damages to their economies the immediate and drastic sanctions demanded by pro Ukrainists. France could easily see Macron replaced by Marine le Pen. Germany could also lurch further to the right, something not new to Germans. Greece as well. And all such right leaning governments are much more likely to side with Putin than with Ukraine.

I see the situation much closer to that FDR faced in the late '30s. He wanted to do more but the reality that he governed an isolationist populace limited what he could do. In the end it was Japan and Germany that solved the problem for him. Only Putin can provoke the kinds of sanctions on Russia you suggest. And he would have to launch something on the scale of Pearl Habour attack, or a 911 to arouse the kind of political ground support in western Europe to implement total embbargoes on Russia.
#15171459
JohnRawls wrote:You have posted this 10 times by now. Not everything that Russian agitprop says is untrue. The oil and gas argument is more or less true if they say what I say.

yes I posted 10 times, but still you try to sell Muscovy like N2 power, but in reality its Nigeria with snow with its primitive, backward 1% of the world economy
#15171462
Juin wrote:"Politics lives in the realm of the possible", John Rawls stated a few messages above. And there is much truth to that. Western European countries remain democracies, meaning one cannot simply ignore how the voters in those countries will react to the damages to their economies the immediate and drastic sanctions demanded by pro Ukrainists. France could easily see Macron replaced by Marine le Pen. Germany could also lurch further to the right, something not new to Germans. Greece as well. And all such right leaning governments are much more likely to side with Putin than with Ukraine.


The reason that they are going towards right-wing governments is because Europeans have been appeasing Putin and Erdogan, especially Erdogan with the refugees and migrants. The only way to survive in the political landscape is to stop appeasing these people and take more affirmative action.

Le Pen may be the only useful idiot for Putin here but she will change her tune once in government because the French do not tolerate traitors.

I see the situation much closer to that FDR faced in the late '30s. He wanted to do more but the reality that he governed an isolationist populace limited what he could do. In the end it was Japan and Germany that solved the problem for him. Only Putin can provoke the kinds of sanctions on Russia you suggest. And he would have to launch something on the scale of Pearl Habour attack, or a 911 to arouse the kind of political ground support in western Europe to implement total embbargoes on Russia.


Both Putin and Erdogan have already provoked these kind of sanctions by militarising their revanchist claims.
#15171468
noemon wrote:The decision to do what is necessary was due yesterday since 2014 at the very least. These superlatives only exist in narrative form to justify these betrayals and prolong the intentional indecision.

Gas can be bought in LNG form and other suppliers can cover the Russian shortfall. You do not maintain a relationship with an enemy sending tanks at you.

Unless full sanctions are imposed, there is no chance of Russia retreating its army and separatists from the Ukraine and the same goes for Turkey in Cyprus. There is simply no incentive for Putin or Erdogan to back off.

So the talk about mild sanctions is about appeasement and essentially tacitly approving of military aggression and occupation thus enabling it as the only possible solution thus prolonging the theatre of war and occupation forces.


It is more complicated with Russia compared to Turkey. We don't rely on Turkish exports to an extreme extent. On the other hand, Europe kinda relies on Russian natural resource exports for its industry to function properly and within acceptable margins.

Banking sanctions are still a far better and a more secure, less devastating for Europe option. It is far more damaging for Russia if we disconnect them from international finance and make any kind of lending/borrowing impossible. Instead of their economy growing by 1-2% (stagnation), it will go under 1% or full decline. Not to mention that Russia elite mostly understands that Putin is a dead end but they are afraid of him. Basically if we take any chance of prosperity away and also confiscate temporarily all of their and their relatives property and assets in Europe and US then I am pretty sure they will have no options left besides to do something.
#15171475
Juin wrote:Does that also make of Ukraine a Haiti with snow?


under your bullets Ukraine is much better place for live than Muscovy , minimal salary is higher , EU passport, weather. one for sure Moscow ulus is the lowest of the low , with corruption index worst than in Papua , you Musocvites are papuas - folk
#15171476
noemon wrote:The reason that they are going towards right-wing governments is because Europeans have been appeasing Putin and Erdogan, especially Erdogan with the refugees and migrants. The only way to survive in the political landscape is to stop appeasing these people and take more affirmative action.

Le Pen may be the only useful idiot for Putin here but she will change her tune once in government because the French do not tolerate traitors.



Both Putin and Erdogan have already provoked these kind of sanctions by militarising their revanchist claims.



i am not a big fan of AKP but still Turkey is our ally meanwhile Muscovy is our n1 foe, and always was

#15171477
JohnRawls wrote:It is more complicated with Russia compared to Turkey. We don't rely on Turkish exports to an extreme extent. On the other hand, Europe kinda relies on Russian natural resource exports for its industry to function properly and within acceptable margins.

Banking sanctions are still a far better and a more secure, less devastating for Europe option. It is far more damaging for Russia if we disconnect them from international finance and make any kind of lending/borrowing impossible. Instead of their economy growing by 1-2% (stagnation), it will go under 1% or full decline. Not to mention that Russia elite mostly understands that Putin is a dead end but they are afraid of him. Basically if we take any chance of prosperity away and also confiscate temporarily all of their and their relatives property and assets in Europe and US then I am pretty sure they will have no options left besides to do something.


" mention that Russia elite mostly understands that Putin is a dead " I expect old czar´s violent death and very soon

Image
#15171478
litwin wrote:i am not a big fan of AKP but still Turkey is our ally meanwhile Muscovy is our n1 foe, and always was


Turkey is our enemy and if you support Turkish aggression in Cyprus, then why should I or anybody care about Russian aggression against you, if you support Turkey's aggression elsewhere?

This kind of disunity is what has enabled Putin and Erdogan to play Europe like a fiddle.

JohnRawls wrote:It is more complicated with Russia compared to Turkey. We don't rely on Turkish exports to an extreme extent. On the other hand, Europe kinda relies on Russian natural resource exports for its industry to function properly and within acceptable margins.


The issue is that no decision is being made for either one of the two, thus enabling their aggression.
#15171480
noemon wrote:Turkey is our enemy and if you support Turkish aggression in Cyprus, then why should I or anybody care about Russian aggression against you, if you support Turkey's aggression elsewhere?

This kind of disunity is what has enabled Putin and Erdogan to play Europe like a fiddle.

Turkey is a NATO country , and it always possible to strike a deal with Turks, and they will hold it , meanwhile Moscow ulus never follow the agreements. I expect the huge economic problem in Turkey due to AKP soft Islamist politic , so they will return to its pro - westren kemalist pattern

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