This is why you don't want me to be your president - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15171822
late wrote:I've had it with Russia.

I say we air drop troops into Ukraine, and start sending them massive amounts of aid, and that's just for starters.

And by that, I mean we hit them where it hurts, take out their pipelines to the West.

That would hit us where it hurts, @late. :eh:
#15171832
late wrote:I've had it with Russia.

I say we air drop troops into Ukraine, and start sending them massive amounts of aid, and that's just for starters.

And by that, I mean we hit them where it hurts, take out their pipelines to the West.


If you want to cripple Russia then introduce sectoral banking/financial sanctions on a scale that have not been seen before. Also temporarily confiscate all property of Russian corrupt individuals and their relatives in EU and US. This will make Putins head fly off his shoulders very quick.

Sending troops and aid does nothing unless you want to start a war with Russia which is stupid. It is stupid not only because a lot of people will die but it will make people flock to Putin again as it happened after Donbass and Crimea. We must absolutely reduce any amount of competition between US/EU and Russia to a minimum while exorting very hard soft power. Russia is decent to very good with hard power but relatively useless in soft power department.

Something along the lines of making the enemy fight on your terms, chosen field etc
#15171843
JohnRawls wrote:
If you want to cripple Russia then introduce sectoral banking/financial sanctions on a scale that have not been seen before. Also temporarily confiscate all property of Russian corrupt individuals and their relatives in EU and US. This will make Putins head fly off his shoulders very quick.

Sending troops and aid does nothing unless you want to start a war with Russia which is stupid. It is stupid not only because a lot of people will die but it will make people flock to Putin again as it happened after Donbass and Crimea. We must absolutely reduce any amount of competition between US/EU and Russia to a minimum while exorting very hard soft power. Russia is decent to very good with hard power but relatively useless in soft power department.

Something along the lines of making the enemy fight on your terms, chosen field etc



That's a good post, and a reasonable policy position.

I just wanted to add that sanctions, and any other economic instruments at our disposal, should be utilised. Having said that, if we were to take out the pipelines, we wouldn't want to do other things guaranteed to piss off our allies.

Russia is not far from being broke. Putin doesn't want to get in a shooting war with us, because of the economic consequences, in my distinctly unhumble opinion.
#15171848
Did I miss something? Did Russia do something recently?

I'm all for encircling Putin. It all has to be done in a much more quiet, non-violent, non-confrontational sort of way. In other words, it has to be an economic and other non-confrontational means. As @JohnRawls it has to be a soft power war. Also, proxy wars have to be off the table too.

Economics won the cold war. Economics seems to be the only way to wage war these days.
#15171849
Rancid wrote:
Did I miss something? Did Russia do something recently?

I'm all for encircling Putin. It all has to be done in a much more quiet, non-violent, non-confrontational sort of way. In other words, it has to be an economic and other non-confrontational means. As @JohnRawls it has to be a soft power war. Also, proxy wars have to be off the table too.

Economics won the cold war. Economics seems to be the only way to wage war these days.



I think the pipeline hack is Putin. This has been going on for years, and we've yet to respond in kind.

IMUO, it's past time to remind him who the big dog is
#15171858
late wrote:I think the pipeline hack is Putin. This has been going on for years, and we've yet to respond in kind.

IMUO, it's past time to remind him who the big dog is


I guess we'll find out in due time then. The US tends to announce who they think is really behind different attacks.
#15171872
Rancid wrote:Did I miss something? Did Russia do something recently?

I'm all for encircling Putin. It all has to be done in a much more quiet, non-violent, non-confrontational sort of way. In other words, it has to be an economic and other non-confrontational means. As @JohnRawls it has to be a soft power war. Also, proxy wars have to be off the table too.

Economics won the cold war. Economics seems to be the only way to wage war these days.


Your gas and oil pipeline got hacked by Russian proxies. Probably that.

We got cyberattacked in the late 00s to a big degree. We adapted and all of our infrastructure now is decentralized and with backups located in different countries. I can't say its invulnerable but close to that or as good as it can get. This is the main reason that we host the main NATO cybersecurity centre here in Estonia.
Last edited by JohnRawls on 11 May 2021 20:16, edited 1 time in total.
#15171900
The issue with Russia and China is that they believe that certain countries like Ukraine, Georgia, Taiwan etc have territory that is historically part of their countries because they contain people of their traditional ethnicity. They want to redraw maps and don't respect the sovereignty of these countries.

This is a huge problem because state sovereignty is the foundation of international relations since the Treaty of Westphalia of 1648 which established the international state system, and since the UN was created to try and enforce it following WWII to avoid these kinds of territorial wars. The US has compounded these problems because of how they have routinely disrespected the sovereignty of many states & their borders over the decades. So Russia and China have called the US hypocrites and when they're criticized by the US have told them to get fucked, and I can't blame them.

Solution? US, Russia, and China need to agree to start following the UN Charter (which they signed) and actually do so. Get along boys and girls.

UN Charter, Chapter II, Article 4: "All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations. "
#15171979
late wrote:That would cripple Russia, which is kinda what I have in mind. We

It would also cripple Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus, Poland, Germany, Austria, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Italy, France, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Finland, and Sweden. So you're right. Nobody would want you as president.

late wrote:Having said that, if we were to take out the pipelines, we wouldn't want to do other things guaranteed to piss off our allies.

Well, destroying their economies is pretty much guaranteed to piss them off.
#15171981
Unthinking Majority wrote:This is a huge problem

No, it isn't.

People treat Ukrainian stateness like it's something their dying dad left them, like it's something true, like it did exist before, like it should exist no matter what, ready to die for the Holy and Unbreakable Directions of the Politburo (ironic in the case of the US but whatsoever). Reminds me a bit of fantasy where Earth is covered with Yggdrasils or somewhat of this kind, with each culture and each state forming around one of them. Wouldn't it be sweet to live in the world of such an objectivity?

However, it's more or less fine with European borders, a bunch of states that shouldn't exist at all doesn't matter much, hard to get perfection. The real problem is anywhere outside the Europe, the places where borders were drawn by (European) politicians on a map by a ruler. From an anti-British anti-colonial world hegemone I personally would expect to solve the problem of eternal points of instability in Africa, Asia and Middle East that are destined to be the source of genocides and terrorism just because of their borders. Like there's significantly bigger gain to effort ratio. But no, Holy Ukraine above all.
#15171991
blackjack21 wrote:
It would also cripple Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus, Poland, Germany, Austria, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Italy, France, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Finland, and Sweden. So you're right.


Well, destroying their economies is pretty much guaranteed to piss them off.



Think of it like cancer treatment. It's no fun at all, on the other hand it's a lot better than the alternative.

It's ironic, they wanted to depend less on OPEC, and on nuke plants, and now they are vulnerable to Putin, which is the worst yet.

A policy like this has to go through a process. It gets studied. If it turns out to be as bad as you say, it would never happen.

There are also middle ground possibilities, where we help them wean themselves off Russian energy.
#15172009
Ganeshas Rat wrote:
It is. And the reason for this is American stubbornness in establishing its client-state in Russia's underbelly. Somewhat like Caribbean crisis (which also started with the US believing Turkey is a great location for deploying nuclear missiles).



The reason is that when the Soviet government collapsed, a lot of other countries were able to declare their freedom and independence from Russia.

Now you want their necks back under Putin's boot.

They don't want that, and personally, I think it's time we taught Vlad some manners.
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