2021 Israeli-Palestine Conflict - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15172629
JohnRawls wrote:Majority of the building was used by HAMAS for its intelligence infrastructure. Israel gave a warning in advance about this bombing.

This is the same story as the main HAMAS command centre is located under the main Hospital of Gaza. Why is HAMAS putting its infrastructure in civilian buildings?

Yeah, maybe the whole Gaza Strip just should be bombed to the ground since Hamas completely owns it. :roll:
#15172636
Beren wrote:Yeah, maybe the whole Gaza Strip just should be bombed to the ground since Hamas completely owns it. :roll:


Hamas is shooting thousands of rockets every day at Israeli cities.
#15172640
JohnRawls wrote:
Hamas is shooting thousands of rockets every day at Israeli cities.



Most of which miss.

Having once again provoked the Palestinians, Netanyahu is pounding the crap out of them, to try and save his career.

Which is in addition to all the other deplorable things that are done to them...
#15172660
late wrote:Most of which miss.

Having once again provoked the Palestinians, Netanyahu is pounding the crap out of them, to try and save his career.

Which is in addition to all the other deplorable things that are done to them...


They are not missing, Iron dome is shooting them down. That is irrelevant though. Israel notifies the other side when it does it strikes at least when civilians are involved. Hamas just fires thousands of them every day at civilians.
#15172682
JohnRawls wrote:More than 2k have been fired already. The article is from 13th:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 021-05-13/

So do you mean to prove yourself to be wrong and stupid or what? :lol:

Reuters wrote:The Israeli military said more than 2,000 rockets had been fired from Gaza into Israel since the start of the conflict, around half of which were intercepted by missile defence systems and 350 fell into the Gaza Strip.

Wikipedia wrote:During the second week of May, about 1,800 rockets were fired at Israel by Hamas or other Palestinian nationalist groups.

So no, Hamas is not shooting thousands of rockets every day at Israeli cities.
#15172689
Beren wrote:So do you mean to prove yourself to be wrong and stupid or what? :lol:



So no, Hamas is not shooting thousands of rockets every day at Israeli cities.


Fine. They are shooting hundreds? Does that make it okay to shoot rockets at cities?
#15172694
JohnRawls wrote:Fine. They are shooting hundreds? Does that make it okay to shoot rockets at cities?

It could be okay even if your bullshit was right, the righteousness of the attacks is not a matter of numbers actually, I didn't mean to get the facts straight to make an argument about that.
#15172696
Beren wrote:It could be okay even if your bullshit was right, the righteousness of the attacks is not a matter of numbers actually, I didn't mean to get the facts straight to make an argument about that.


What kind of righteousness is there? What the hell?

It is not okay to fire rockets at cities the same way it is not okay for Israel to continue evicting people to get more land. It is not okay to spread propaganda that leads to stabbing or killings of civilians, the same way Israel can show a blind eye to right wing groups that cause similar violence against the Arab population of Israel.

There is much wrong with this conflict but Israel attacking Hamas infrastructure and leadership after 2 thousand rockets has been fired at Israeli cities is not one of them.
#15172698
JohnRawls wrote:It is not okay to fire rockets at cities the same way it is not okay for Israel to continue evicting people to get more land.

So what if the latter one happens? It's not okay but...

Image
#15172700
Beren wrote:So what if the latter one happens? It's not okay but...

Image


It is not okay and that is it. Europe and US both have the same stance on Israel evictions of Palestinians. Not even the US says it is okay and US is pretty pro-Israel in any interpretation.
#15172703
Beren wrote:So you still do compute, right? :lol:

Image


So lets talk about it. But before you spell it out:

Image

Also before you attempt to spell it out, note that right now is not 100BC or 1099 or 1948. We are in year 2021 right now.
#15172718
wat0n wrote:Most may miss, but those who don't can and do still manage to kill people.

Israel routinely kills orders of magnitude more civilians than the handful of Hamas bottle-rockets that manage to slip through the Iron Dome.

Of course, I suspect the response will be "it isn't a competition", and sure, that's fair, to an extent. But I don't see how killing civilians on incredibly dubious military pretexts is fine when Israel does it, but we all have to piously intone that Hamas doing the same is beyond the pale. Especially when the actual consequences are so hideously lopsided.
#15172721
JohnRawls wrote:Majority of the building was used by HAMAS for its intelligence infrastructure. Israel gave a warning in advance about this bombing.

This is the same story as the main HAMAS command centre is located under the main Hospital of Gaza. Why is HAMAS putting its infrastructure in civilian buildings?


Yeah this is reaching Adrian Zenz levels of misinformation.

In 2018, Israeli troops shot and killed a Palestinian photojournalist who was wearing a press jacket. Then, without providing any evidence, the Defense Minister claimed he was a high ranking Hamas member. This despite the fact that he had been screened and cleared by the US for an aid grant, using intelligence provided by Israel.
https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/ ... amas-claim
#15172723
Heisenberg wrote:Israel routinely kills orders of magnitude more civilians than the handful of Hamas bottle-rockets that manage to slip through the Iron Dome.

Of course, I suspect the response will be "it isn't a competition", and sure, that's fair, to an extent. But I don't see how killing civilians on incredibly dubious military pretexts is fine when Israel does it, but we all have to piously intone that Hamas doing the same is beyond the pale. Especially when the actual consequences are so hideously lopsided.


One difference is that Hamas has a policy of targeting civilians, Israel does not. That makes a difference, both legally and in practical terms (if Israel had such a policy, Palestinian casualties would be way heavier - and the conflict would as well be over by now. If Hamas didn't, it would probably try to engage in some rather ineffectual cross border land raids rather than launching rockets).

You can compare this to estimates of civilians killed, by perpetrator, for the Syrian Civil War where the Syrian government has killed most civilians during the war (by far), and has had much fewer civilians under its protection killed too, according to pretty much all available estimates and yet here we see the same people who whine about Israel lavishly praise the Lion of Damascus, the Liberator of Syria, or whatever other silly name they have for Bashar al-Assad, for his conduct during the war and this is despite the fact, too, that the Islamists are using tactics that are not all that different from Hamas', including mingling among civilians whether the latter like it or not. And here, too, we're talking about an order of magnitude higher as far as casualty figures are concerned. Likewise, and just in case someone may say "b-but you are comparing Israel to Syria!!!", you should also find that NATO and the US in particular has killed more civilians in Afghanistan than pretty much everyone else and this compares with close to zero civilian deaths along NATO members happening after 9/11 specifically in response to the war.

So tell me, why should I take the whining seriously at all? And I say whining because the double standards from the usual suspects are quite evident here.
#15172733
wat0n wrote:One difference is that Hamas has a policy of targeting civilians, Israel does not.

This is complete drivel. Israel knowingly drops high explosives on densely populated civilian areas. Mass civilian casualties are an inevitable consequence of this, as has been proven time and time and time again. To simply disavow any responsibility for the deaths it causes is so weak that I have a very hard time accepting that they even believe it themselves.

If the IDF was even remotely serious about its claim to try to minimise civilian casualties, it would adapt its tactics. It has shown absolutely no interest in doing so, because it fundamentally does not see Palestinians as human.

wat0n wrote:You can compare this to estimates of civilians killed, by perpetrator, for the Syrian Civil War where the Syrian government has killed most civilians during the war (by far), and has had much fewer civilians under its protection killed too, according to pretty much all available estimates and yet here we see the same people who whine about Israel lavishly praise the Lion of Damascus, the Liberator of Syria, or whatever other silly name they have for Bashar al-Assad, for his conduct during the war and this is despite the fact, too, that the Islamists are using tactics that are not all that different from Hamas', including mingling among civilians whether the latter like it or not. And here, too, we're talking about an order of magnitude higher as far as casualty figures are concerned.

The two situations are not remotely comparable. Syria is fighting a total war against an actual existential threat. Israel is bombarding an impoverished subject people who it has contained within a densely populated open air prison. A more accurate comparison would be the way the various colonial empires crushed uprisings against their rule.

wat0n wrote:Likewise, and just in case someone may say "b-but you are comparing Israel to Syria!!!", you should also find that NATO and the US in particular has killed more civilians in Afghanistan than pretty much everyone else and this compares with close to zero civilian deaths along NATO members happening after 9/11 specifically in response to the war.

If you think you're talking to someone who hasn't been a very vocal opponent of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, you are sorely mistaken.

Of course, it's quite telling that you are making a direct comparison between Israel's bombardment of Gaza and nakedly imperialist aggression against foreign countries by NATO. I thought the official Israeli line was that it is desperately fighting for its survival against a terrifying existential threat? ;)

wat0n wrote:So tell me, why should I take the whining seriously at all?

Incredible. Scratch a liberal, etc.

You should take the "whining" seriously if you actually see Palestinians as human, or want anyone to take you seriously when you attempt to claim Israel has some sort of moral high ground.
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