Who is right? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues and parties in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

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By Patrickov
#15106530
Rich wrote:That's a hideous racist lie. God clearly expressed his will on this matter in 332, by granting Alexander his miraculous victories. The only question is who can claim to be the legitimate successor State / government to Alexander. I know one thing for sure, its not Hamas.


It was just a way to make my point comprehensible to Member Hindsite. His point often involves faith so I sometimes make statements deviating from what we see and believe when I discuss with him. It is unwise to take such points too literally.
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By Godstud
#15106630
Palestine has as much right to exist as Israel does. I guess that means that Palestine is right.
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By Hindsite
#15106677
Godstud wrote:Palestine has as much right to exist as Israel does. I guess that means that Palestine is right.

False. Israel is mentioned in the Holy Bible, but Palestine is not.
HalleluYah
#15106680
Hindsite wrote:False. Israel is mentioned in the Holy Bible, but Palestine is not.
HalleluYah


You can't make legal claims based on bible references. The Bible also said Jesus walked on water and the world is only a few thousand years old.

Hey Hind, god appeared to me in the middle of the night and said you need to send me $1000. PM me i'll tell you where to send the cash.
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By Hindsite
#15106686
Unthinking Majority wrote:You can't make legal claims based on bible references. The Bible also said Jesus walked on water and the world is only a few thousand years old.

So what? It is true.
By Patrickov
#15106687
Godstud wrote:Palestine has as much right to exist as Israel does. I guess that means that Palestine is right.


It's not that simple.

1. Palestine has right to exist: Yes
2. Palestine (or anybody else) has right to erase Israel's existence because the Israeli elite / ultra-nationalists try so hard to deny point (1): No

The problem is that as time goes by more and more Palestinians and their supporters are lured or even forced to take measures closer to (2) even if their objective is just (1).

Of course, some may say that if (2) happens then Israeli ultra-nationalists ask for it.
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By Hindsite
#15106691
Patrickov wrote:It's not that simple.

1. Palestine has right to exist: Yes
2. Palestine (or anybody else) has right to erase Israel's existence because the Israeli elite / ultra-nationalists try so hard to deny point (1): No

The problem is that as time goes by more and more Palestinians and their supporters are lured or even forced to take measures closer to (2) even if their objective is just (1).

Of course, some may say that if (2) happens then Israeli ultra-nationalists ask for it.

Technically speaking, there has never been a country called Palestine. Palestine is a regional name given by the Romans (who conquered the region). Through many invasions by different empires, the region was never an independent state.

Israel did not steal Palestinian land. It's not Palestinians' land; it's never been their land; it will never be their land. This land was given to the Jewish people, as stated in the Bible, by the Creator, and will remain the homeland of the Jewish people in perpetuity.

The Arabs never established a Palestinian state when the UN in 1947 recommended to partition Palestine, and to establish "an Arab and a Jewish state" (not a Palestinian state, it should be noted). Nor did the Arabs recognize or establish a Palestinian state during the two decades prior to the Six-Day War when the West Bank was under Jordanian control and the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian control; nor did the Palestinian Arabs clamor for autonomy or independence during those years under Jordanian and Egyptian rule.
By Patrickov
#15106728
The entirety of Member Hindsite's argument can be defeated with a single statement "international politics does NOT solely follow the Bible". But I am particularly interested in the following part.


Hindsite wrote:This land was given to the Jewish people, as stated in the Bible, by the Creator, and will remain the homeland of the Jewish people in perpetuity.


False. God had chased the Jewish people from the place at least once according to the Bible, and at least once after the Bible. It is absurd to suggest that God won't do it again if He finds it necessary.


All in all, Bible was authored almost two thousand years ago. Things might have changed a lot and we should not take what's said on it too literally.

I agree that Christians can (and should) have faith in God, but that does not mean God must do what they expect, because they, like us, are only human.
By skinster
#15106770
JohnRawls wrote:Yes it did exist before WW2 but WW2 catapulted it in to taking very agressive action or extreme. You get the point. Pre-WW2 zionism was more peaceful and probably would have seen steady flow of the jewish population to Palestein with there forming a kind of reasonable government body with both jews and arabs included. PRE-WW2 Zionism was based mostly on consensus and negotiating/gaining favour from the Ottomans, British empire etc and had branches all over the world etc. After WW2 Israel was deemed as a necessity right now, so the jewish diaspora armed themselves and just took palestine by force basically.


Again, you are wrong and need to make frands with history. Do you really think it took 2/3 years after WW2 that Israel as a state was declared? There were a few decades before WW2 that Zionist terror gangs invaded and started their project of ethnically-cleansing the land in the name of supremacy. Israel was declared a state in 1948. It didn't take just 3 years after WW2 to make Palestine Israel. Colonisation began in the 1800s and early 1900s and that process is ongoing today.

On a related note, there are no two different states. There is one. Some people call it Israel and some call it the land of the natives: Palestine. They are both one state, with two names, dependent on your politics. If you're ok with genocide, ethnic-cleansing, racism and such, you'll call it Israel. If not, you'll call it what the natives refer to it as (Palestine).
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By Hindsite
#15106804
Unthinking Majority wrote:God and Jesus are Santa Claus and the toothy fairy for adults.

Much better than that.

Patrickov wrote:I agree that Christians can (and should) have faith in God, but that does not mean God must do what they expect, because they, like us, are only human.

However, God will do what he says He will do. That is exactly what we Christians believe.

skinster wrote:On a related note, there are no two different states. There is one. Some people call it Israel and some call it the land of the natives: Palestine. They are both one state, with two names, dependent on your politics. If you're ok with genocide, ethnic-cleansing, racism and such, you'll call it Israel. If not, you'll call it what the natives refer to it as (Palestine).

I call it Israel.
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By Hellas me ponas
#15150778
My point in this whole matter is that both parties are being used by USA and Europeans to project their interests in middle East.
Israel is the strained dog USA can unleash everytime Arabs do not cooperate.
Both Jews and Arabs suffer immensely from this feud. The problem is that they think the true enemy is the one they fight on the battlefields.
Both sides have a righteous and justified cause. Both Jews and Arabs are right according to their claims. That's why this won't be solved by trying to prove who is right or wrong. This will be solved only when they realise westerners are using them for keeping the region in a constant situation of instability.


Israelis did what they had to do in order to survive and Arabs did everything they could do in order to resist Israelis. And while Jews and Arabs are bleeding in the deserts American and European arm and oil industries flourish unharmed.
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By Sandzak
#15150833
They have to find a compromise. The Jewish Apartheid has to end and the violence against Israeli civilians.

Perhaps the new ties with UAE and co. will show the Israelis the Arabs are not impoverished suicide bombers.
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By Lipush
#15172991
Hellas me ponas wrote:"...was established arbitrarily and illegaly by expelling and exterminating local natives and settling new settlers..."


Are you an American? if you consider yourself one, then you're making a crime too. Is the United States of America not an occupied land where it's indigenous 'owners' were massively slaughtered?

All over history, people were expelled from their lands and conquered others. Israel is the ONLY country however, where such a simple fact, BASED fact of history is simply ignored.

Hellas me ponas wrote:"From all around Europe and America."


So I guess Mizrahi Jews is not a real thing, then.

Hellas me ponas wrote:I don't have problem against Jewish people, I have friend who is Jewish I know how they are (just like every normal ordinary people)


They don't have horns then? Imagine that.

And "I don't have problems with.... I have friends who are" is the classic racist apologists' phrase. You're welcome to take it however you like.

Hellas me ponas wrote:But the Creation of Israel is wests history biggest crime right behind the bombings of hirosima and nagasaki (maybe they are even)


So, not the Armenian Holocaust, or the war in Syria, or september 11.... you went with that. Ok.
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By Lipush
#15172992
Hellas me ponas wrote:I I've been reading a certain book about Ottoman history and an other about the Arab world.
I'll find them online if I can and send you links
I have a really good view of how Palestine was before the Jews invade. But I have to admit I havent studied at all the history after the invasion.


Jews were always in the land; people don't just fall out of the sky.
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By Lipush
#15172993
Hindsite wrote:False. Israel is mentioned in the Holy Bible, but Palestine is not.
HalleluYah


"The land was promised by God" is not a valid arguement.
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