App makes killing Palestinians as easy as ordering pizzas - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15145558
QatzelOk wrote:The Pizza Declaration:

In the delivery of a hot pizza product, the deliverer must take all measures to make sure that it arrives at its destination both undisturbed and hot enough for the cheese to be properly melted.

(Note that the Pizza Declaration expresses zero concern for pedestrians along the route, or does it foresee or predict the 57,000 children who have been killed by pizza deliverers since this declaration was signed)


Pizzas is like sex, when it is good,
it ‘s really good....
And when it’s bad, it’s still pretty good.
#15145614
ckaihatsu wrote:I wouldn't agree that Israel is 'forced', exactly -- obviously it has the power of discretion as to its geopolitical ties, and the result is its regional hegemony in the Middle East.

But, yes, it's preferring to be socially 'in-crowd' and elitist, rather than populist and popular.

What I meant is that Israel is "forced" by the logic of its ideological composition, to put an old, tired text into 3 dimensions - no matter what the consequences for itself or the rest of the world.
#15172583
Well, you can philosophise about the creation of Israel, and bask in the warm radiance of a failed social system (communism), until the cows come home.

But here are two facts:
1) Israel exists, and is not going away. The Arabs tried this using military force three times. And they failed three times.
2) the 'Palestinians' are a lost cause. Even the surrounding Arab states hold them in contempt. They will fade into history.
#15172588
Roofgardener wrote:
Well, you can philosophise about the creation of Israel, and bask in the warm radiance of a failed social system (communism), until the cows come home.

But here are two facts:
1) Israel exists, and is not going away. The Arabs tried this using military force three times. And they failed three times.
2) the 'Palestinians' are a lost cause. Even the surrounding Arab states hold them in contempt. They will fade into history.



Another vote for apartheid, with a side of ethnic cleansing.
#15172780
late wrote:Another vote for apartheid, with a side of ethnic cleansing.

Image"Let me explain what is really happening..."

About the slaughter of Palestinians by colonialist and racist Israel, Bari Weiss wrote:Some of these people are entirely innocent non-combatants, including children. This is an unspeakable tragedy. It is also one of the unavoidable burdens of political power, of Zionism’s dream turned into the reality of self-determination.


This seems to say that killing lots of children is sad but necessary in order to Manifest Destiny in Palestine.

So Bari supports the killing of Palestinians as long as it increases or maintains her own ingroup's political power. This is a defense of genocide based on "my amazing peeps", and this kind of callous genocide almost always increases some political entity's power.

But earlier in the article - an accidental mea culpa from her dimwitted plume.

...And so lies have replaced truth. Memes have replaced morality. Hashtags have replaced history.

I’m speaking, of course, about Israel.


I especially like her groaning about "Hashtags replacing history."

#Never again!
#Middle East's only democracy
#Stop the rockets
#A people without a land
#Palestine was never a country
#15176922
Thousands march in London urging G7 support for Palestinian cause

https://www.timesofisrael.com/thousands ... ian-cause/


Hundreds of 'Free Palestine' protesters take to city centre streets

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk ... e-20802414


'Stop killing children!', Brits condemn Israel arms sales

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2021/06/ ... arms-sales


PALESTINE Islamic Jihad urges unity to confront Israeli 'checkpoints of death'

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2021/6/1 ... amic-Jihad


Hamas Asks Palestinians to 'Resist' Israeli Nationalist Parade Through Jerusalem's Old City

https://www.newsweek.com/hamas-asks-pal ... ty-1600556


Pro-Palestinian Protesters Chant ‘Allahu Akhbar,’ Torch Israeli Flag in NYC Demonstration

https://www.breitbart.com/podcast/2021/ ... nstration/


Pro-Palestine protesters descend on London as Corbyn appeals to G7

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/pale ... 40254.html


Socialist Jeremy Corbyn Demands G7 Recognise Palestine as a State

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2021/0 ... s-a-state/


Video: Ex-Labour Leader Jeremy Corbin Embraces Pro-Palestinian Rally Outside Downing St

https://sputniknews.com/uk/202106121083 ... owning-st/


Car rally shows support for the people of Palestine

https://www.guelphtoday.com/local-news/ ... ne-3870034


British backing for Israel helps to sustain the unbearable status quo

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... lestinians


'This is not a conflict: this is apartheid': over 16000 artists sign letter in solidarity with Palestine – Mondoweiss

https://mondoweiss.net/2021/06/this-is- ... palestine/


Gaza father tried to console his children, then Israel killed him

https://electronicintifada.net/content/ ... -him/33361


Two, including minor, wounded by Israeli military gunfire near Jericho

https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/125016


Israeli forces detain ten Palestinians from West Bank

https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/125014


Israeli forces demolish two homes near Jerusalem

http://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/125019


Gantz approves new targets for attack in Gaza

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20210 ... k-in-gaza/


Israeli nationalists march in East Jerusalem, prompt Palestinian 'Day of Rage'

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-isra ... SKCN2DQ255


New Israeli gov’t approves right-wing march through Jerusalem

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/1 ... -jerusalem


Israel plans to demolish 17 Palestinian homes in East al-Quds area by July end: Official

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2021/06/ ... d-Official


Turkish military hit targets in Syria's Tel Rifat after hospital attack

https://news.yahoo.com/turkish-military ... 17313.html


Palestinians: Bennett gov’t will continue Netanyahu policies

https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conf ... ies-670828


Iran says it has broad agreement with the US on lifting sanctions

https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2021/ ... -sanctions


Bahrain and UAE congratulate newly formed Israeli government

https://www.arabnews.com/node/1876661/middle-east


Lebanon is running out of gas — literally

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/mi ... utType=amp
#15176931
Oxymoron wrote:Gaza has a democratically elected terror group as their government, yeah brah they terrorists.

Most governments in the world right now - and indeed throughout human history - would qualify as "democratically elected terror groups". Especially the governments of the USA and the UK, which are the two biggest terrorist groups in the world.
#15177251
Potemkin wrote:Most governments in the world right now - and indeed throughout human history - would qualify as "democratically elected terror groups". Especially the governments of the USA and the UK, which are the two biggest terrorist groups in the world.

My Daddy goes to church every Sunday and considers himself a traditionalist and conservative.

But in the 60s, he dropped Chemical Weapons on Asian farmers for the USA.

I'm not sure what the word "terrorism" is supposed to settle or define.
#15177258
QatzelOk wrote:My Daddy goes to church every Sunday and considers himself a traditionalist and conservative.

But in the 60s, he dropped Chemical Weapons on Asian farmers for the USA.

I'm not sure what the word "terrorism" is supposed to settle or define.

It defines the Other as "evil" and us as "good". And it settles who gets to control the New World Order.
#15178593
QatzelOk wrote:

European violence in Palestine

This makes it appear that Israel *always existed* rather than acknowledging its formation by European terror groups using WW2 arms, leading to the ethnic-cleansing (ongoing) of millions of human beings.

It's like hearing about a child getting killed by your pizza deliverer, and then worrying out loud that your pizza might not be hot when it arrives. You are overly pizza-centric to the point of being a carb-and-cheese-crazed monster.


In regards to your first comment-Jews from Europe who went to what you refer to as Palestine are no more foreigner than Muslims who moved into Palestinian from outside it. The fact you call Jews "European" of course ignores those Jews who always lived in "Palestine" since ancient days and/or were born their (Sabras) and Mitzrahi-Tsfardic Jews including 750,000 of 900,000 thrown out of Muslim countries and forced to flee to Israel.

Next, your conmment "Israel always existed", it pre-existed any Muslim nations and Jews have continued to live consecutively where Israel and the Westbank are today since the beginning of its civilization. So no one says "Israel always existed" except you. You say that to distort from what is actually said, that Jews are indigenous to Israel not European invaders and were joined by Jews from Muslim and European and other nations.

Next your comment abiout ethnic cleansing is false. The Muslim Israelis who chose to remain in Israel were never cleansed. they still live there and have all the legal rights any Jewish Israeli has and unlike any Jew has in any Muslim country.

Next the Muslims on the West Bank were never removed. They are still there and in the Gaza. To be cleansed as you falsely claimed they would all have to have been removed like what Muslim countries did to 900,000 Jews forcing 750,000 of them to flee to Israel.

Next your pizza references are purile. Your attempt to depict the app you do as a way to facilitate death is what one would expect from someone whose motive is to come on a forum to spread anger and hatred not constructive dialogue.

Tell me when Hamas and 200 other extremist terrorist cells send missiles in on Israel and attack its civilians is that also pizza delivery? Those missiles how are they delivered? The hot air balloons with bombs sent in by fishing boats what kind of delivery is that hmmm?

By the way if you are going to come on this forum to engage in incitement of hatred admit it. Admit what your agenda is, be upfront about it and state your true agenda. Also admit what your identity is and what you were taught about Jews. Can you do that or do you want to play pizza delivery man?
#15178594
Potemkin wrote:Most governments in the world right now - and indeed throughout human history - would qualify as "democratically elected terror groups". Especially the governments of the USA and the UK, which are the two biggest terrorist groups in the world.


Your subjective political opinions and biases as to Israel, the US, the UK are supposed to prove what exactly? Do you think they establish a point other than you have biases that you want to throw out?
#15178595
Potemkin wrote:It defines the Other as "evil" and us as "good". And it settles who gets to control the New World Order.


Yes you do that when you engage in the term "terrorism", i.e., its why you come on this forum, to express your subjective biases that Israel, the US, the UK are terrorists and bad. You speak for yourself though and what you do, no one else.
#15178600
ckaihatsu wrote:Conflating Palestinian civil and human rights with Islamist fundamentalist terrorists.

Racist much?


No but it sounds like you are. Who said what you infer?

Also Palestinians are not a race-they are Muslims who use the word "Palestinian" to describe their perceived "natinality". They are not a race.

In the past Muslims and Jews were referred to as the Semitic race but that term was misunderstood. It simply referred to people who came from the same linguistic origins.

Race is a term no longer used by anyone with any kind of scientific knowledge. Race was a social construct used to classify people into three groups, mongoloid, negroid and caucasoid or caucasian based on secondary physical characteristics, i.e., skin tone, nose shape, lip shape, hair texture.

Science has shown these secondary physical characteristics are meaningless, i.e., someone tar black and chalk white could have more in common genetically that two black or two white people.

We now know blood type and other genetic properties are the most accurate way to depict common origins and propensity for diseases.

Muslims and Jews of the Middle East are in fact a mix of many genetic components that can give them secondary characteristics of what used to be referred to as all 3 "races". Both peoples can range from dark brown to yellow to white. In the case of Jews they can be Ashkenzai (having lived in Europe once displaced), Tsfardic or Mitzrahi (having lived in Muslim countries once displaced, and Spain, Italy, Portugal, China, Africa, India) or Felashie (Ethiopian) or African (isolated Jewish tribes).

Muslims have every mix in them ranging from black African to Greek to Roman, to Hun).

Jews and Muslims could have virtually any feature and be mixed up with Latinos, aboriginal,"whites", "blacks", other Indians or Pakistanis, on and on.

If you are going to come on this board to misappropriate terms to push your agenda, I will call you out as being just as racist in assumption as anyone you infer is racist because they disagree with you.

Next the current Hamas was not democratically elected. It is a Syrian cell that violently took control from an Egyptian cell that was elected. The current political systems in Haza and on the West Bank do not engage in free democratic elections. Everyone is told who to vote for otherwise they face killing, torture, retaliation.

I know this from having lived there and witnessing it. How about you? Does your armchair sofa enable you such vision?
#15178604
Metoo wrote:
ckaihatsu,

I read your post (19th Dec.). Still thinking , what was it you were trying to say? So...you talked about who were those people who called themselves Palestinians, ok, - many were...Golda Meer had a Palestinian Passport. So, what....?

I do not think your narrative is pertinent to the subject matter in this thread. You are saying that Israel must be dissolved, LOL! So, if you want to dissolve it, what does it mater who a Palestinian person is or was?

Unless of course you are under impression that only certain people can be citizens of that new state that in you illusionary view will replace Israel. Well, - who are those people?

Anyway, you are supporting the the side that lost, - yes, lost and keeps loosing more with every year passing. The events of the past few months decisively shown that Palestinian Arab narrative, as authored by Arafat and promoted by Abbas, is dead, and with it your narrative.

Get this, -Jews have returned. The only way anyone can change this, is by direct combat. Jews have managed to build a regional superpower. Those are the facts. If you advocate for a fight, it is fine. If you advocate for a peaceful change to the ethnic make up of Israel, - it is fine too. Go...convince people! Methinks, you will not go very far.

I know it because your predecessors, - Mr. Lenin and Mr. Trotsky, as well as far less talented Stalin, Khrushchev, Mao, Brezhnev, etc... only managed to to convince people while repressing them. Their message has not endured, and neither does or will yours.



ckaihatsu wrote:
It's not a 'narrative' -- you're trying to imply *subjectivity* on my part, when I went to the authoritativeness of *Wikipedia*, for my source. You're still trying to pass off your conflation of Israeli settlers / land-grabbers, with the indigenous Palestinians (Arabs) themselves.

Why can't Israel be *secular*, and post-apartheid? Simple. All the geopolitical wrangling can't substitute for this, which both South Africa and the U.S. accomplished, to varying but definitive extents -- *desegregation*, basically.

And now you're conflating the Bolsheviks with the Stalinists -- learn some history if you're going to refer to it. Those were distinctly different stages in that country.




viewtopic.php?p=15144383#p15144383



---


Oxymoron wrote:
Rocket up your ass in 30 minutes or less, or your Suicide vast back.



ckaihatsu wrote:
Conflating Palestinian civil and human rights with Islamist fundamentalist terrorists.

Racist much?



viewtopic.php?p=15142596#p15142596



PhantomStranger wrote:
No but it sounds like you are. Who said what you infer?



No, I'm not -- Oxymoron is.


PhantomStranger wrote:
Also Palestinians are not a race-they are Muslims who use the word "Palestinian" to describe their perceived "natinality". They are not a race.



Got it, but Oxymoron was using a racist *depiction* of Palestinians.


PhantomStranger wrote:
In the past Muslims and Jews were referred to as the Semitic race but that term was misunderstood. It simply referred to people who came from the same linguistic origins.

Race is a term no longer used by anyone with any kind of scientific knowledge.



Actually it's currently on government forms that people fill out.


PhantomStranger wrote:
Race was a social construct used to classify people into three groups, mongoloid, negroid and caucasoid or caucasian based on secondary physical characteristics, i.e., skin tone, nose shape, lip shape, hair texture.

Science has shown these secondary physical characteristics are meaningless, i.e., someone tar black and chalk white could have more in common genetically that two black or two white people.

We now know blood type and other genetic properties are the most accurate way to depict common origins and propensity for diseases.

Muslims and Jews of the Middle East are in fact a mix of many genetic components that can give them secondary characteristics of what used to be referred to as all 3 "races". Both peoples can range from dark brown to yellow to white. In the case of Jews they can be Ashkenzai (having lived in Europe once displaced), Tsfardic or Mitzrahi (having lived in Muslim countries once displaced, and Spain, Italy, Portugal, China, Africa, India) or Felashie (Ethiopian) or African (isolated Jewish tribes).

Muslims have every mix in them ranging from black African to Greek to Roman, to Hun).

Jews and Muslims could have virtually any feature and be mixed up with Latinos, aboriginal,"whites", "blacks", other Indians or Pakistanis, on and on.

If you are going to come on this board to misappropriate terms to push your agenda, I will call you out as being just as racist in assumption as anyone you infer is racist because they disagree with you.



Okay, again, how was I racist?


PhantomStranger wrote:
Next the current Hamas was not democratically elected. It is a Syrian cell that violently took control from an Egyptian cell that was elected. The current political systems in Haza and on the West Bank do not engage in free democratic elections. Everyone is told who to vote for otherwise they face killing, torture, retaliation.

I know this from having lived there and witnessing it. How about you? Does your armchair sofa enable you such vision?



My armchair sofa is *awesome*, and the comfort it affords me frees me up to do armchair politics like a motherfucker.

If you're going to diss Hamas and Hezbollah, etc., you're just being needlessly formalistic.
#15178725
ckai you asked me:

"Why can't Israel be *secular*, and post-apartheid? Simple. All the geopolitical wrangling can't substitute for this, which both South Africa and the U.S. accomplished, to varying but definitive extents -- *desegregation*, basically."

Do you ask all the Muslim nations of the Middle East not to be Muslim? Do you ask the Vatican City not to be Catholic and do you ask the United Kingdom not to be an Anglican state?

Of course you don't. Israel has a definition related to Judaism which might consist of both religious and ethnic identity. In the above analogy it is no different than the above nations or how in the Punjasb Siekhism is closely identified with its government.

As well "Jewish" is defined no different than Italians define Italians, or how the Irish, define themselves or how over 125 other ethnic groups define themselves including remaining that ethnic identity outside their country of origin but having an expedited process based on blood lineage if they want to return to their homeland.

Do you ask the same question of Irish, Belgians, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Czechs. Slovakians, Serbs, Croatians, Greeks, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Estonians? Of course not.

Next your use of the term apartheid to apply it to Israel, South Africa and the US but not Muslim states or Russia, China, etc., speaks to your biases and selectivity. Why is it in the entire world these are the only three nations you picked out?

Next your accusation that Israel engages in apartheid is a stale canard. Not even Hamas or the PA use that description anymore.

It is fact, non Jewish Israeli citizens, particularly Muslim Israelis have ALL the legal rights Jewish Israelis do. The fact people identified as being Jewish by blood lineage are entitled to expedited citizenship processes does NOT make it an apartheid state any more than Ukraine, the Czech Republic are. Its no more apartheid for calling itself Jewish in that sense or in the religious sense any different than the UK or Vatican.

In fact Muslims can opt out of any laws pertaining to family law and religious laws and go to their own Muslim courts. In fact Muslims are elected as Judges, Knesset members, serve in the military, police, as doctors. They are treated in hospitals no different than Jews. Yah you knew that just like you know the leader of Hamas' daughter is treated at an ISRAELI hospital.

So to call Israel apartheid is absolutely dishonest. It affords its non Jews all the legal rights NO Jew is entitled to in the Muslim world a world you won't discuss because of your deliberate agenda.

In the Muslim world there is apartheid. Its called dhimmitude and you depend on people not knowing that. Your entire script ignores what dhimmitude is. It is the failure to separate the Muslim religion from the state institutions. It promulgates Koranic decrees as the laws and those include defining Jews as unable to own land, testify in court, do business or communicate with a Muslim directly, live in the same neighbourhoods and openly gather. Yah but you knew that.

You knew that these Muslim nations of the ME expelled 900,000 Jews. Would you refer to that as ethnic cleansing? Who you? 750,000 to 800,000 of those Jews had to flee to Israel. They had no where else to go.

Israel defines itself as a Jewish nation to protect and guarantee state protection of Jews in a world while also practicing democratic tolerance of its non Jews.

On the West Bank which is NOT part of Israel there are two sets of laws-one for Israeli citizens, one for Palestinians under the IDF military governor and it is that inconsistency on the Westbank that leads people like you to exploit that dispute to then utter falsehoods and standards about Israel while ignoring what the Palestinian people and Muslim nations have done-acting as if Israel acted in a vacuum.

Go on read what Hamas and the PA say daily in their media and to anyone who will listen. They want a majority Muslim state where Israel is. That is there solution. They refuse to recognize Israel as a Jewish state while demanding yet another Muslim state. It is religiously engrained in that unilateral demand that Jews are dhimmi, they can not have a nation or own land. So of course Jews world wide sought sufferage, i.e., the creation of a nation. They could not own land in the Christian countries of the world. They can not own land in the Muslim countries of the world. So they returned to their homeland where never again they would they would have to fear a government telling them they can not own land.

You ask what is wrong with a secular state? Finish the question? What was wrong and is wrong with secular states in every Muslim nation of the world and all nations of the world. Until you ask that question of all nations equally, your agenda is clear-single out Jews for having a country and to answer your question-if the entire damn world was secular, there would have been no holocaust, slaughters of Jews by Muslims and a need for Jews to seek asylyum in a country they had to recreate to escape such discrimination.
#15178727
Ckai, I stated Palestinians are NOT a race. I did not address you ever directly or indirectly as a "racist". I do since you bring it up believe you practice a double standard with Jews showing they are the only people in the world you question for expressing their religion and ethnicity through nationality.

That concept that Jews should not be a nationality is based on a discriminatory belief against all Jews holding them to an inferior standard, i.e., they are the only people in the world you believe you can lecture and tell them where their place is on this planet, i.e., as stateless.

In that sense the double standard is anti-semitic. You may believe to be anti-semitic you must insult a Jew but anti-semitism refers not just to hateful words but disriminatory double standards you hold Jews to but no other people.

Get back to me when you demand the entire world be secular. Until then your agenda is bloody obvious.
#15178729
QatzelOk wrote:What I meant is that Israel is "forced" by the logic of its ideological composition, to put an old, tired text into 3 dimensions - no matter what the consequences for itself or the rest of the world.


Your assumption above is based on error and ignorance. The concept of expressing Jews as a nationality and entitled to define themselves through nationality is not from the Bible. In fact it was created as a concept by socialist atheists.

Until you stop assuming you know what Zionism actually was created for and by who and what it says you will not understand it.
#15178741
PhantomStranger wrote:
ckai you asked me:

"Why can't Israel be *secular*, and post-apartheid? Simple. All the geopolitical wrangling can't substitute for this, which both South Africa and the U.S. accomplished, to varying but definitive extents -- *desegregation*, basically."

Do you ask all the Muslim nations of the Middle East not to be Muslim? Do you ask the Vatican City not to be Catholic and do you ask the United Kingdom not to be an Anglican state?

Of course you don't. Israel has a definition related to Judaism which might consist of both religious and ethnic identity. In the above analogy it is no different than the above nations or how in the Punjasb Siekhism is closely identified with its government.

As well "Jewish" is defined no different than Italians define Italians, or how the Irish, define themselves or how over 125 other ethnic groups define themselves including remaining that ethnic identity outside their country of origin but having an expedited process based on blood lineage if they want to return to their homeland.

Do you ask the same question of Irish, Belgians, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Czechs. Slovakians, Serbs, Croatians, Greeks, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Estonians? Of course not.

Next your use of the term apartheid to apply it to Israel, South Africa and the US but not Muslim states or Russia, China, etc., speaks to your biases and selectivity. Why is it in the entire world these are the only three nations you picked out?

Next your accusation that Israel engages in apartheid is a stale canard. Not even Hamas or the PA use that description anymore.

It is fact, non Jewish Israeli citizens, particularly Muslim Israelis have ALL the legal rights Jewish Israelis do. The fact people identified as being Jewish by blood lineage are entitled to expedited citizenship processes does NOT make it an apartheid state any more than Ukraine, the Czech Republic are. Its no more apartheid for calling itself Jewish in that sense or in the religious sense any different than the UK or Vatican.

In fact Muslims can opt out of any laws pertaining to family law and religious laws and go to their own Muslim courts. In fact Muslims are elected as Judges, Knesset members, serve in the military, police, as doctors. They are treated in hospitals no different than Jews. Yah you knew that just like you know the leader of Hamas' daughter is treated at an ISRAELI hospital.

So to call Israel apartheid is absolutely dishonest. It affords its non Jews all the legal rights NO Jew is entitled to in the Muslim world a world you won't discuss because of your deliberate agenda.

In the Muslim world there is apartheid. Its called dhimmitude and you depend on people not knowing that. Your entire script ignores what dhimmitude is. It is the failure to separate the Muslim religion from the state institutions. It promulgates Koranic decrees as the laws and those include defining Jews as unable to own land, testify in court, do business or communicate with a Muslim directly, live in the same neighbourhoods and openly gather. Yah but you knew that.

You knew that these Muslim nations of the ME expelled 900,000 Jews. Would you refer to that as ethnic cleansing? Who you? 750,000 to 800,000 of those Jews had to flee to Israel. They had no where else to go.

Israel defines itself as a Jewish nation to protect and guarantee state protection of Jews in a world while also practicing democratic tolerance of its non Jews.

On the West Bank which is NOT part of Israel there are two sets of laws-one for Israeli citizens, one for Palestinians under the IDF military governor and it is that inconsistency on the Westbank that leads people like you to exploit that dispute to then utter falsehoods and standards about Israel while ignoring what the Palestinian people and Muslim nations have done-acting as if Israel acted in a vacuum.

Go on read what Hamas and the PA say daily in their media and to anyone who will listen. They want a majority Muslim state where Israel is. That is there solution. They refuse to recognize Israel as a Jewish state while demanding yet another Muslim state. It is religiously engrained in that unilateral demand that Jews are dhimmi, they can not have a nation or own land. So of course Jews world wide sought sufferage, i.e., the creation of a nation. They could not own land in the Christian countries of the world. They can not own land in the Muslim countries of the world. So they returned to their homeland where never again they would they would have to fear a government telling them they can not own land.

You ask what is wrong with a secular state? Finish the question? What was wrong and is wrong with secular states in every Muslim nation of the world and all nations of the world. Until you ask that question of all nations equally, your agenda is clear-single out Jews for having a country and to answer your question-if the entire damn world was secular, there would have been no holocaust, slaughters of Jews by Muslims and a need for Jews to seek asylyum in a country they had to recreate to escape such discrimination.



I do hear you on this latter part, but the way the State of Israel was created was hardly 'grassroots' and bottom-up -- it was carved out by the British Empire for the purposes of colonialism and warehousing.

Sure, I appreciate that history up to this point has been 'messy', to put it lightly, but I can't really see a *cultural*-based continuation of political administration, as in the oft-touted 'two-state solution'.


PhantomStranger wrote:
In the Muslim world there is apartheid. Its called dhimmitude and you depend on people not knowing that. Your entire script ignores what dhimmitude is. It is the failure to separate the Muslim religion from the state institutions. It promulgates Koranic decrees as the laws and those include defining Jews as unable to own land, testify in court, do business or communicate with a Muslim directly, live in the same neighbourhoods and openly gather. Yah but you knew that.



No, I didn't, and I appreciate the coverage of topics like this -- it's why I'm here, and why I do this.

I don't support such political sectarianism, and I would say the same thing here -- *secular* administration, and the spurning of Sharia-type laws in favor of *civil rights* and the freedom to practice religion personally.

I'll note that much of this is in place already, but *only* specifically, regarding religious practice:



Access

Muslim residents of Israel and Palestinians living in East Jerusalem are normally allowed to enter the Temple Mount and pray at the al-Aqsa Mosque without restrictions.[84] Due to security measures, the Israeli government occasionally prevents certain groups of Muslims from reaching al-Aqsa by blocking the entrances to the complex; the restrictions vary from time to time. At times restrictions have prevented all men under 50 and women under 45 from entering, but married men over 45 are allowed. Sometimes the restrictions are enforced on the occasion of Friday prayers,[85][86] other times they are over an extended period of time.[85][87][88] Restrictions are most severe for Gazans, followed by restrictions on those from West Bank. The Israeli government states that the restrictions are in place for security reasons.[84]

Until 2000, non-Muslim visitors could enter the Al-Aqsa Mosque by getting a ticket from the Waqf. That procedure ended when the Second Intifada began. Fifteen years later, negotiation between Israel and Jordan might result in allowing visitors to enter once again.[89]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Mosque#Access



Outside of this, the larger problem is really about capitalist *private property*, the institution of which *is* defended by bourgeois governments within civil society / civil rights, which happens to be problematic itself.

I'm a workers-of-the-world socialist, so ultimately I'm going to say that private property is more trouble than it's worth, and that civil rights should be about *interpersonal* aspects, with all 'property' and 'geography' being under *worker-collectivist* administration, with nation-states no longer existing.
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