Florida Bans CRT in Schools - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15177446
Voter suppression is racist, @Julian658, even if you aren't smart enough or don't care enough to know it.
#15177449
It has been argued that it is patently untrue that “racism is embedded in American society and its legal systems in order to uphold the supremacy of white persons”.

When I asked for evidence that this claim was not true, none was presented.

Julian658 wrote:American history can be taught as is and to include all the damage done to black people. This can be done objectively without political indoctrination or brain washing.


Not in Florida, no.

In Florida, it would be illegal to teach certain facts.

The objections to CRT in schools is that it teaches POC students to be victims.


This is incorrect and unsupported.

And you will not support it with evidence.

Many believe that teaching CRT will bring MORE rather than less racism.


They are wrong.

Julian658 wrote:If you think black people are not smart enough to obtain ID then you are more racist than Donald Trump. :knife: :knife:


Then it is a good thing that I did not argue that.

My claim is that voter ID laws are a good example of that racism embedded in American society and its legal systems in order to uphold the supremacy of white persons.

In reality, of course, voter ID laws are also used to target poor and disabled people as well, so it is more complicated than my simpler claim of racism, but it would be good to stay on topic.
#15177469
Slavery is not anything special to black people. Humans did not have basic freedoms we have today thought much of human history.We were all slaves one way or another. For instance, my ancestors fell slave to Mongols. They lived under Mongol rule for centuries. Should I complain about this all the day now? Should I demand reparations from Mongols? :lol:

Black people and woke people should realize that their demands are laughable and off reality.
#15177473
Godstud wrote:Voter suppression is racist, @Julian658, even if you aren't smart enough or don't care enough to know it.

Voter identification requirement is not racist. Also not anti-democratic.

Voting twice and more is anti-democratic. If Africans and others want to vote multiple times, it is the problem here. Democrats are unanimously advocating this. It is anti-democratic.
#15177482
istanbuller wrote: If Africans and others want to vote multiple times, it is the problem here.
Nice racist sentiment. Thanks for identifying yourself as a racist tool.

Get an education you cretin.

Voter identification laws are a part of an ongoing strategy to roll back decades of progress on voting rights. Thirty-four states have identification requirements at the polls. Seven states have strict photo ID laws, under which voters must present one of a limited set of forms of government-issued photo ID in order to cast a regular ballot – no exceptions.

Voter ID laws deprive many voters of their right to vote, reduce participation, and stand in direct opposition to our country’s trend of including more Americans in the democratic process. Many Americans do not have one of the forms of identification states acceptable for voting. These voters are disproportionately low-income, racial and ethnic minorities, the elderly, and people with disabilities. Such voters more frequently have difficulty obtaining ID, because they cannot afford or cannot obtain the underlying documents that are a prerequisite to obtaining government-issued photo ID card.

Voter ID Laws Deprive Many Americans of the Right to Vote
Millions of Americans Lack ID. 11% of U.S. citizens – or more than 21 million Americans – do not have government-issued photo identification.1
Obtaining ID Costs Money. Even if ID is offered for free, voters must incur numerous costs (such as paying for birth certificates) to apply for a government-issued ID.
Underlying documents required to obtain ID cost money, a significant expense for lower-income Americans. The combined cost of document fees, travel expenses and waiting time are estimated to range from $75 to $175.2
The travel required is often a major burden on people with disabilities, the elderly, or those in rural areas without access to a car or public transportation. In Texas, some people in rural areas must travel approximately 170 miles to reach the nearest ID office.3
Voter ID Laws Reduce Voter Turnout. A 2014 GAO study found that strict photo ID laws reduce turnout by 2-3 percentage points,4 which can translate into tens of thousands of votes lost in a single state.5
Voter ID Laws Are Discriminatory
Minority voters disproportionately lack ID. Nationally, up to 25% of African-American citizens of voting age lack government-issued photo ID, compared to only 8% of whites.6
States exclude forms of ID in a discriminatory manner. Texas allows concealed weapons permits for voting, but does not accept student ID cards. Until its voter ID law was struck down, North Carolina prohibited public assistance IDs and state employee ID cards, which are disproportionately held by Black voters. And until recently, Wisconsin permitted active duty military ID cards, but prohibited Veterans Affairs ID cards for voting.
Voter ID laws are enforced in a discriminatory manner. A Caltech/MIT study found that minority voters are more frequently questioned about ID than are white voters.7
Voter ID laws reduce turnout among minority voters. Several studies, including a 2014 GAO study, have found that photo ID laws have a particularly depressive effect on turnout among racial minorities and other vulnerable groups, worsening the participation gap between voters of color and whites.8
Voter ID Requirements are a Solution in Search of a Problem
In-person fraud is vanishingly rare. A recent study found that, since 2000, there were only 31 credible allegations of voter impersonation – the only type of fraud that photo IDs could prevent – during a period of time in which over 1 billion ballots were cast.9
Identified instances of “fraud” are honest mistakes. So-called cases of in-person impersonation voter “fraud” are almost always the product of an elections worker or a voter making an honest mistake, and that even these mistakes are extremely infrequent.10
Voter ID laws are a waste of taxpayer dollars. States incur sizeable costs when implementing voter ID laws, including the cost of educating the public, training poll workers, and providing IDs to voters.
Texas spent nearly $2 million on voter education and outreach efforts following passage of its Voter ID law.11
Indiana spent over $10 million to produce free ID cards between 2007 and 2010.12

https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter ... fact-sheet


istanbuller wrote:It is anti-democratic.
Voter suppression is anti-Democratic, but I don't expect a poorly educated person to understand that. :knife:
#15177484
Godstud wrote:Nice racist sentiment. Thanks for identifying yourself as a racist tool.

Get an education you cretin.

Voter identification laws are a part of an ongoing strategy to roll back decades of progress on voting rights. Thirty-four states have identification requirements at the polls. Seven states have strict photo ID laws, under which voters must present one of a limited set of forms of government-issued photo ID in order to cast a regular ballot – no exceptions.

Voter ID laws deprive many voters of their right to vote, reduce participation, and stand in direct opposition to our country’s trend of including more Americans in the democratic process. Many Americans do not have one of the forms of identification states acceptable for voting. These voters are disproportionately low-income, racial and ethnic minorities, the elderly, and people with disabilities. Such voters more frequently have difficulty obtaining ID, because they cannot afford or cannot obtain the underlying documents that are a prerequisite to obtaining government-issued photo ID card.

Voter ID Laws Deprive Many Americans of the Right to Vote
Millions of Americans Lack ID. 11% of U.S. citizens – or more than 21 million Americans – do not have government-issued photo identification.1
Obtaining ID Costs Money. Even if ID is offered for free, voters must incur numerous costs (such as paying for birth certificates) to apply for a government-issued ID.
Underlying documents required to obtain ID cost money, a significant expense for lower-income Americans. The combined cost of document fees, travel expenses and waiting time are estimated to range from $75 to $175.2
The travel required is often a major burden on people with disabilities, the elderly, or those in rural areas without access to a car or public transportation. In Texas, some people in rural areas must travel approximately 170 miles to reach the nearest ID office.3
Voter ID Laws Reduce Voter Turnout. A 2014 GAO study found that strict photo ID laws reduce turnout by 2-3 percentage points,4 which can translate into tens of thousands of votes lost in a single state.5
Voter ID Laws Are Discriminatory
Minority voters disproportionately lack ID. Nationally, up to 25% of African-American citizens of voting age lack government-issued photo ID, compared to only 8% of whites.6
States exclude forms of ID in a discriminatory manner. Texas allows concealed weapons permits for voting, but does not accept student ID cards. Until its voter ID law was struck down, North Carolina prohibited public assistance IDs and state employee ID cards, which are disproportionately held by Black voters. And until recently, Wisconsin permitted active duty military ID cards, but prohibited Veterans Affairs ID cards for voting.
Voter ID laws are enforced in a discriminatory manner. A Caltech/MIT study found that minority voters are more frequently questioned about ID than are white voters.7
Voter ID laws reduce turnout among minority voters. Several studies, including a 2014 GAO study, have found that photo ID laws have a particularly depressive effect on turnout among racial minorities and other vulnerable groups, worsening the participation gap between voters of color and whites.8
Voter ID Requirements are a Solution in Search of a Problem
In-person fraud is vanishingly rare. A recent study found that, since 2000, there were only 31 credible allegations of voter impersonation – the only type of fraud that photo IDs could prevent – during a period of time in which over 1 billion ballots were cast.9
Identified instances of “fraud” are honest mistakes. So-called cases of in-person impersonation voter “fraud” are almost always the product of an elections worker or a voter making an honest mistake, and that even these mistakes are extremely infrequent.10
Voter ID laws are a waste of taxpayer dollars. States incur sizeable costs when implementing voter ID laws, including the cost of educating the public, training poll workers, and providing IDs to voters.
Texas spent nearly $2 million on voter education and outreach efforts following passage of its Voter ID law.11
Indiana spent over $10 million to produce free ID cards between 2007 and 2010.12

https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter ... fact-sheet


Voter suppression is anti-Democratic, but I don't expect a poorly educated person to understand that. :knife:


To assume black people are not bright enough to have an ID is condescending racism of low expectation. This is the normal MO of those on the left.
#15177486
@Julian658 It's nice that you dismiss things that come from the ACLU. You do know what that is, don't you, or are you really that dim? Do you just not like the FACTS, or are you still pushing that bullshit racist narrative or yours that no one but you is stupid enough to believe?

You don't have to say racist shit ALL the fucking time, you know. We already know that you're a racist punk.
#15177490
Pants-of-dog wrote:

When I asked for evidence that this claim was not true, none was presented.


Not in Florida, no.

In Florida, it would be illegal to teach certain facts.

This is incorrect and unsupported.

And you will not support it with evidence.



This is from page 4 of the CRT teaching of math guidelines from the Oregon
https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/up ... TRIDE1.pdf

This workbook provides teachers an opportunity to examine their actions, beliefs, and values around teaching mathematics. The framework for deconstructing racism in mathematics offers essential characteristics of antiracist math educators and critical approaches to dismantling white supremacy in math classrooms by making visible the toxic characteristics of white supremacy culture (Jones and Okun 2001; dismantlingRacism 2016)
with respect to math. Building on the framework, teachers engage with critical praxis1 in order to shift their instructional beliefs and practices toward antiracist math education. By centering antiracism, we model how to be antiracist math educators with accountability.
CONSIDERATIONS FOR USE
While primarily for math educators, this text advocates for a collective approach to dismantling white supremacy. This school-wide approach ensures that antiracist work is not left alone to one individual (i.e., math teacher or the director of equity), but to enlist the support and voice of all stakeholders in the school ecosystem.


The teaching of math manifesto then goes on to practice massive racism towards white people in page 5:

As a visual indicator, we italicize the terms used to identify white supremacy characteristics as de ned by Jones and Okun (2001). They are as follows:
• Perfectionism
• Sense of Urgency
• Defensiveness
• Quantity Over Quality
• Worship of the Written Word • Paternalism
• Either/Or Thinking
• Power Hoarding
• Fear of Open Conflict
• Individualism
• Only One Right Way
• Progress is Bigger, More
• Objectivity
• Right to Comfort


The entire teaching manifesto is racist anti-white propaganda. I would not want any children to be exposed to this crap POD.
#15177491
Pants-of-dog wrote:It has been argued that it is patently untrue that “racism is embedded in American society and its legal systems in order to uphold the supremacy of white persons”.

When I asked for evidence that this claim was not true, none was presented.


Civil rights and anti-discrimination law already disproves this idea. It's actually the other way around, you are the one who has to prove the opposite.

You mention voter ID laws, but in reality there are many reasons why they are in place and that is one case where there is a plausible business justification to have them as electoral results should be credible for all, and that's indeed why many countries have their own voter ID laws. Even worse, there is also legal precedent barring the use of election laws to racially discriminate, and even the Shelby case in 2013 reaffirms the right of Congress to regulate this matter (which may actually be done by the current Congress, and they could do as little as only updating the old section 4b formula for Federal clearance, and creating an automatically updating formula - as far as ID laws are concerned, it could include as a criterion whether the State makes getting IDs and all required documents free and easier to get, and if have automatic registration. States could get Federal subsidies for the free IDs if necessary).

You can't say that the American legal system is designed to discriminate based on an at best unclear cherry picked example alone.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Not in Florida, no.

In Florida, it would be illegal to teach certain facts.


CRT is not an established fact, should not be taught as a fact just like creationism is not taught as one, and its epistemology is not about facts either. It can and should however be discussed and debated in civics class since it poses questions that should be of interest to anyone living in the US, as civics class is by its very nature about debate - including on matters whose factual accuracy is unclear at best.
#15177498
POD said, "When I asked for evidence that this claim was not true, none was presented."


Why bother. He asked for evidence that racism in America did NOT exist. That is a stupid debating technique. Prove a negative?

Racism in America DOES exist. In a big way. But this is a subtle point.

The examples given are gerrymandering. This is not a specific attempt to keep blacks from voting though it often does. It ALSO often empowers blacks by creating majority black districts where they would not otherwise exist. Democrats use gerrymandering just as republicans do. They just don't do it as well.

Voter ID laws are again an attempt to suppress votes that are not for the Republican party. This is not because of skin color but because of propensity to vote a particular way. It reduces the necessity for the Republican Party to pander to some voters.

But CRT makes the general statement that white supremacy is baked into the US political system. It is most decidedly not baked in. What is baked in is the ability of political parties to suppress or encourage voters. I could list any number of voting districts where "black supremacy" is institutionalized.

CRT and the 1619 project are examples of the tendency of academia to become infatuated with a passing fad. I would go so far as to say that the Florida legislature is not as interested in truth as they are in political advantage. That said though, they appear to have accidentally landed on truth for a change.

CRT is not an established fact, should not be taught as a fact just like creationism is not taught as one, and its epistemology is not about facts either. It can and should however be discussed and debated in civics class since it poses questions that should be of interest to anyone living in the US, as civics class is by its very nature about debate - including on matters whose factual accuracy is unclear at best.


Put on your 8th grade hat and tell me how this debate might be framed. I will tell you that in order to have any meaningful discussion on the theory one would have to get pretty far down the rabbit hole with the students. Then the debate is no longer intellectual (especially for children under 18) but rather becomes the usual "us versus them" scenario.

There is nothing in the law that prohibits discussions on the sequela of racism. Teachers can discuss gerrymandering. They can discuss preferential hiring and affirmative action. This law is very specific on what it prohibits.

Looking back on my own education I can see any number of things that were popular but did not stand the test of time. In this case, I would ask, "what is it you want the students to DO with this theory?" Do we want young black students to be convinced that they do not have a chance in hell? Just because you can teach something, does not mean that you ought to.
#15177502
Drlee wrote:Put on your 8th grade hat and tell me how this debate might be framed. I will tell you that in order to have any meaningful discussion on the theory one would have to get pretty far down the rabbit hole with the students. Then the debate is no longer intellectual (especially for children under 18) but rather becomes the usual "us versus them" scenario.

There is nothing in the law that prohibits discussions on the sequela of racism. Teachers can discuss gerrymandering. They can discuss preferential hiring and affirmative action. This law is very specific on what it prohibits.

Looking back on my own education I can see any number of things that were popular but did not stand the test of time. In this case, I would ask, "what is it you want the students to DO with this theory?" Do we want young black students to be convinced that they do not have a chance in hell? Just because you can teach something, does not mean that you ought to.


8th grade? I'm thinking more about 11th-12th grade... I'd think that's when the most contentious debate could take place.

And I agree with your last paragraph, but actually being a fad is a reason for debating these issues in schools. They just need to watch the news and they will hear concepts like "systemic racism" and "Critical Race Theory". I'd think 11th and 12th graders would be interested in having a discussion about those fads, and almost certainly be more interested about discussing current stuff than stuff that's not in the news.

Also, what's this law's text? Is it also even a state law? It seems this was a measure by FL's Board of Education (i.e. its executive branch), not by its legislative bodies. This may seem irrelevant, but it's not - if FL gets a Dem governor, this will likely be overturned. The reasons stated by De Santis for pushing for the ban are also interesting.
#15177517
Julian658 wrote:This is from page 4 of the CRT teaching of math guidelines from the Oregon
….

The entire teaching manifesto is racist anti-white propaganda. I would not want any children to be exposed to this crap POD.


Calling things racist is bot an argument. Also, Florida is not in Oregon.

—————————

If the argument is that systemic discrimination in law does not exist because courts have supported anti-discrimination law, it fails on two levels.

1. It assumes intent is necessary in discrimination. Courts may have found evidence of disparate treatment and/or disparate impact and still not charged the person or group doing said discrimination for one reason or another, such as a technicality.

2. It assumes that the court system is catching most or all episodes of anti-discrimination. It is completely possible that systemic racism and discrimination is so prevalent that these cases are only scratching the surface.

As for voter ID laws, the evidence showing the disparate impact has already been presented in this thread, and the only evidence for election fraud in Florida is a Republican candidate who hired his friend to run as a leftish independent to siphon votes from the Democrat candidate.

And it would actually be illegal to teach that the current voting laws have a systemic effect on the rights of black people to vote.

———————

No one has yet been able to support the claim that it is patently untrue that “racism is embedded in American society and its legal systems in order to uphold the supremacy of white persons”.

Let us face it: no one will.
#15177526
Pants-of-dog wrote:If the argument is that systemic discrimination in law does not exist because courts have supported anti-discrimination law, it fails on two levels.

1. It assumes intent is necessary in discrimination. Courts may have found evidence of disparate treatment and/or disparate impact and still not charged the person or group doing said discrimination for one reason or another, such as a technicality.

2. It assumes that the court system is catching most or all episodes of anti-discrimination. It is completely possible that systemic racism and discrimination is so prevalent that these cases are only scratching the surface.


I already responded to both arguments here. You are more than welcome to engage there, without spamming.

Pants-of-dog wrote:As for voter ID laws, the evidence showing the disparate impact has already been presented in this thread, and the only evidence for election fraud in Florida is a Republican candidate who hired his friend to run as a leftish independent to siphon votes from the Democrat candidate.


That doesn't mean there is no justification to prevent parts of the public from believing voter fraud is widespread and having them delegitimize electoral results. That's even truer since alternatives that would eliminate the disparate impact of voter ID laws exist, and yet no one proposes them.

Pants-of-dog wrote:And it would actually be illegal to teach that the current voting laws have a systemic effect on the rights of black people to vote.


I actually wonder if that's true. I'd like to read the resolution by the FL Board of Education.

Pants-of-dog wrote:No one has yet been able to support the claim that it is patently untrue that “racism is embedded in American society and its legal systems in order to uphold the supremacy of white persons”.

Let us face it: no one will.


The existence and application of anti-discrimination law already shows this is not the case.

It would actually be more productive if you were able to show something that would clearly point towards your claim than believing people are supposed to just ignore key parts of current anti-discrimination law.
#15177528
Sigh.

Forums are so repetitive.

The recent 100th anniversity of the slaughter of the Tulsa Black Wall St is a reminder that racism is a lot more than prejudice. It's about the systematic destruction of the rights, and aspirations, of Blacks.

Southern culture is fundamentally anti-democratic. They were never all that supportive of public education. But when desegregation happened, they built thousands of private schools that could remain segregated, while starving the public schools of funding.

As I keep trying to get through your concrete skulls, once you look closely, the amazing thing about racism is that it is the ten ton gorilla in the room...

The entire, childish, CRT controversy is just a distraction. They are doing everything they can to make Dems, and the country, fail.

The CRT whining will die in the courts. It's crap.
#15177536
Whether or not a bunch of people have convinced themselves that voter fraud is rampant is not justification for enforcing laws that will almost certainly disenfranchise many legal voters, and will almost certainly disproportionately impact BIPOC voters.

What it does show is that there are enough people in Florida who do not understand how voter ID laws discriminate against black voters, and so the state would benefit from education about how laws can support racial discrimination.

And now it is illegal to point that out since that is an example of how “racism is embedded in American society and its legal systems”, which is specifically censored.

And anti-discrimination law does not prove that all laws are not racist. That would mean that this mechanism has already been used to ensure that all laws have been amended to changed to remove all disparate treatment and impact. But I would like to see someone support that claim.
#15177541
Pants-of-dog wrote:Whether or not a bunch of people have convinced themselves that voter fraud is rampant is not justification for enforcing laws that will almost certainly disenfranchise many legal voters, and will almost certainly disproportionately impact BIPOC voters.


Why not? It's something done in most Western countries.

Pants-of-dog wrote:What it does show is that there are enough people in Florida who do not understand how voter ID laws discriminate against black voters, and so the state would benefit from education about how laws can support racial discrimination.

And now it is illegal to point that out since that is an example of how “racism is embedded in American society and its legal systems”, which is specifically censored.


Would you cite from the resolution by FL's Board of Education?

Pants-of-dog wrote:And anti-discrimination law does not prove that all laws are not racist. That would mean that this mechanism has already been used to ensure that all laws have been amended to changed to remove all disparate treatment and impact. But I would like to see someone support that claim.


Actually there is plenty of precedent to that effect, supported by the US Constitution and its current interpretation and not just specific civil rights law.

If you or anyone else want to challenge some law as being unconstitutional, you can make your case in court.
#15177545
wat0n wrote:Why not? It's something done in most Western countries.


If you think it is justified for Florida Republicans to knowingly disenfranchise Black voters in order to maintain power, then your moral stance is noted.

Would you cite from the resolution by FL's Board of Education?


The part in quotation marks is a quote, word for word,

Actually there is plenty of precedent to that effect, supported by the US Constitution and its current interpretation and not just specific civil rights law.

If you or anyone else want to challenge some law as being unconstitutional, you can make your case in court.


So no evidence. This tangent will now be ignored.
#15177546
Pants-of-dog wrote:If you think it is justified for Florida Republicans to knowingly disenfranchise Black voters in order to maintain power, then your moral stance is noted.


Please quote me on saying that. It justifies avoiding future claims of election fraud, and states should also provide free ID cards.

Pants-of-dog wrote:The part in quotation marks is a quote, word for word,


I'd still like to see the original source.

Pants-of-dog wrote:So no evidence. This tangent will now be ignored.


So you want evidence like actual cases where that happened? It's as easy as looking at some civil rights era ones

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hernandez_v._Texas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._ ... _Education
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keys_v._Carolina_Coach_Co.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browder_v._Gayle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boynton_v._Virginia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_ ... ted_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katzenbach_v._McClung
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Car ... Katzenbach
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jones_v._ ... ._Mayer_Co.

Will you finally prove your claims now?
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