First Transwoman Makes The Olympics! - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15177831
wat0n wrote:I don't think there is much empirical literature on that matter, but you can't deny it's reasonable to assume MtF athletes do have a hormonal advantage based on what we know about sexual differentiation among humans, @Pants-of-dog

I say, let them still. See what happens, if people complain you know who to point your fingers to: Postmodern queer radical feminists such as Judith Butler. That's precisely why I'm all for letting her compete (plus I find it ironic since the idea that some federations use steroids to cheat can now be answered by others with this).

There are obviously physiological advantages. One such category probably does involve hormones, but that is just one such category.
#15177833
Crantag wrote:There are obviously physiological advantages. One such category probably does involve hormones, but that is just one such category.


Yeah, you can include those other differences resulting from hormone secretion during teenage years, such as bone structure, fat holding patterns or muscle mass in here too. I ignore if there are others that aren't mediated/triggered by hormones at some point though.
#15177834
The study cited by @ThirdTerm seems to suggest that upper body strength advantages enjoyed by men disappear after two years of hormone therapy.

How long has the athlete in the OP been doing hormone therapy?
#15177838
Crantag wrote:What do yall think of 'former male' trannys beating up females in prize fighting rings?





What a tough guy! Or should it be girl? Why is she wasting her time fighting cis women? She should be promoted to cis male leagues




When transgender fighter Fallon Fox broke her opponent's skull in MMA fight


Fallon Fox, the first MMA fighter to come out as transgender, once fractured the skull of her opponent in an MMA fight in 2014.

Fox was challenging Tamikka Brents at CCCW (Capital City Cage Wars) event, where the 45-year-old fighter brutally defeated her American opponent. The fight lasted just over two minutes after the referee was forced to halt the contest.

Brents received seven staples to her head, and also suffered a concussion. She was overpowered by Fox to an extent that even the orbital bone inside her skull was fractured.


“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not because I’m not a doctor. I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right. Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn’t move at all in Fox’s clinch," Brents told Whoa TV.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/news-wh ... -mma-fight
#15177845
wat0n wrote:I don't think there is much empirical literature on that matter, but you can't deny it's reasonable to assume MtF athletes do have a hormonal advantage based on what we know about sexual differentiation among humans, @Pants-of-dog

This.

Of course, there's the rather obvious point that Hubbard went from being a decidedly mediocre male weightlifter to a regular medal contender almost immediately after transitioning.

Pants-of-dog wrote:The study cited by @ThirdTerm seems to suggest that upper body strength advantages enjoyed by men disappear after two years of hormone therapy.

Frankly, the study cited by ThirdTerm is nowhere near specific enough to the sport of Olympic weightlifting to provide any meaningful evidence on the matter one way or the other. An army fitness test and a maximal effort snatch or clean and jerk (which, for what it's worth, are actually largely lower body lifts) could not be more different. For one thing, the AFT is far more about endurance than maximal strength. Diet, training, muscle mass and bone density will also be relevant factors to take into account.
#15177849
No @Pants-of-dog .

No sense trolling this thread. Just go away.

We do not need a study to show that men are stronger than women. You posted as evidence something that says there is no evidence.

How about 200,000 years of observational evidence? Come on folks. This woke bullshit is just self-defeating. Progressives art throwing themselves under the buss with this. We conservatives do not need a study to know that men generally lift more than women do.

If some 300 pound weightlifter wants to put on high heels, lipstick and a miniskirt, he is welcome to do it. If he so attired wants to go lift weights against women I have no problem telling him that he is welcome to be a trailblazer. He can be the first "woman" to compete in men's weightlifting.

"What the fuck kind of dog is that?"

"I don't know what kind he is now. But before I cut his tail off and painted him brown he was an alligator."

This whole subject is theater of the absurd.
#15177852
Heisenberg wrote:Frankly, the study cited by ThirdTerm is nowhere near specific enough to the sport of Olympic weightlifting to provide any meaningful evidence on the matter one way or the other. An army fitness test and a maximal effort snatch or clean and jerk (which, for what it's worth, are actually largely lower body lifts) could not be more different. For one thing, the AFT is far more about endurance than maximal strength. Diet, training, muscle mass and bone density will also be relevant factors to take into account.


I always support more science, so I agree with you that more information is needed.

————————

Drlee wrote:No @Pants-of-dog .

No sense trolling this thread. Just go away.

We do not need a study to show that men are stronger than women. You posted as evidence something that says there is no evidence.


Yes, exactly.

There is no evidence.

So what we can say us that the current decisions being made, one way or the other, are being made on a basis other than a scientific one.

How about 200,000 years of observational evidence? Come on folks. This woke bullshit is just self-defeating. Progressives art throwing themselves under the buss with this. We conservatives do not need a study to know that men generally lift more than women do.

If some 300 pound weightlifter wants to put on high heels, lipstick and a miniskirt, he is welcome to do it. If he so attired wants to go lift weights against women I have no problem telling him that he is welcome to be a trailblazer. He can be the first "woman" to compete in men's weightlifting.

"What the fuck kind of dog is that?"

"I don't know what kind he is now. But before I cut his tail off and painted him brown he was an alligator."

This whole subject is theater of the absurd.


:|
#15177855
Pants-of-dog wrote:There is no evidence.

So what we can say us that the current decisions being made, one way or the other, are being made on a basis other than a scientific one.

Well, this is certainly true.

I know I'm not an expert on this issue, but just from a basic sense of "fair play", the difference in the IOC's attitude towards Laurel Hubbard and Caster Semenya rubs me the wrong way. This isn't even a slight against Hubbard, really - after all, she's competing according to the rules the IOC set. (I still think she has a major unfair advantage, but I doubt she specifically transitioned with the goal of cleaning up in women's weightlifting, so I can't really think of her as a "cheat" or anything like that).

What I question is the process behind how those rules were decided on and enforced.

It seems quite clear, for example, that the "5 nmol/L" rule for female middle distance runners was specifically designed to target and exclude Semenya for a genetic condition she has no control over, most likely under pressure from powerful interests (British women runners, among others, have been bitter about her for years, and that bitterness has often come with some nasty racial undertones).

On the other hand, it appears that in the other case, they set rules specifically designed to include Hubbard (setting an HRT requirement for someone who is already medically transitioning is far less intrusive than requiring a perfectly healthy intersex person to take otherwise unnecessary androgen blockers).

What I really question is how this would have played out if Hubbard and Semenya's nationalities/races were switched. I know New Zealand is only a small country, but it will have allies among wealthy federations like the UK and USA, who hold a lot of sway with organisations like the IOC and IAAF. I suspect the same is not the case for South Africa.
#15178894
Heisenberg wrote: Hubbard did choose to continue competing after transitioning, despite decades of development as a male beforehand.

Just absurd.
Not according to this interview she gave .
There have been conflicting studies around whether transgender women still retain significant advantages in power and strength when testosterone is reduced... In the same interview, she was at pains to dispel "one of the misconceptions that's out there'' that she had trained all her life and her transition had happened "relatively late in the piece''. What people don't realise is I actually stopped lifting in 2001 when I was 23 because it just became too much to bear ... just the pressure of trying to fit into a world that perhaps wasn't really set up for people like myself''. After living as a man for 35 years, Hubbard began transitioning to female through hormonal treatment around 2012. https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/olympics/nz-olympic-team/125523731/tokyo-olympics-transgender-olympian-laurel-hubbards-journey-to-just-be-me
Juin wrote:


What a tough guy! Or should it be girl? Why is she wasting her time fighting cis women? She should be promoted to cis male leagues




When transgender fighter Fallon Fox broke her opponent's skull in MMA fight


Fallon Fox, the first MMA fighter to come out as transgender, once fractured the skull of her opponent in an MMA fight in 2014.

Fox was challenging Tamikka Brents at CCCW (Capital City Cage Wars) event, where the 45-year-old fighter brutally defeated her American opponent. The fight lasted just over two minutes after the referee was forced to halt the contest.

Brents received seven staples to her head, and also suffered a concussion. She was overpowered by Fox to an extent that even the orbital bone inside her skull was fractured.


“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not because I’m not a doctor. I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right. Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn’t move at all in Fox’s clinch," Brents told Whoa TV.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/news-wh ... -mma-fight
Here are the facts of the matter.

Fallon Fox, the former MMA fighter who came out as trans in 2013, is again the target of ill-informed people trying to entirely ban trans women from women’s sports.

Fox has often been a target of these people, with many of them using false or misleading claims to discredit and defame her.

To be sure, a thoughtful conversation about the inclusion of trans women in sports is important for today’s society.

Yet this conversation needs to stick to the facts and an honest discussion.

Sadly, some people are resorting to the spreading of misleading information or flat-out lies.

Here are some of the most dishonest falsehoods about Fox being disseminated by people trying to create universal bans of trans women in women’s sports.

Fallon Fox broke the skull of an opponent
This has been a favorite line of anti-trans-athlete detractors, like Glenn Beck’s The Blaze, and it is incredibly misleading.

When people use the term “skull,” they’re almost universally talking about the thick, hard cranial portion of the skull that protects the brain.

In reality, the skull is made up of various bones that are essentially fused together. The orbit — consisting of the bones around the eye — is part of the facial skeleton and is what was broken in the fight.

To read articles and social-media posts from people opposed to the inclusion of trans women in women’s sports, you’d think this was a once-in-a-lifetime injury. While of course broken bones don’t happen in every MMA fight, this kind of injury is not unique to fights involving trans athletes.

“I’d say we see broken orbitals as the result of MMA bouts about once every two to three months at the highest levels,” Zane Simon, editor at Bloody Elbow, said. “Maybe at times slightly more often than that.

“Obviously, with the large amount of MMA that takes place around the globe and on smaller, regional shows, those kinds of facial fractures are going to be a fairly common thing month-to-month. But we certainly don’t see them as often as we see broken noses or hand injuries.”

The nose is also part of the fused skull. But of course we don’t see “unfair MMA fighter breaks opponent’s skull” when there’s a broken nose.

Fallon Fox defeated one opponent in 39 seconds
This is a true statement. However, it lacks incredibly important context.

On March 2, 2013, just days before Fox came out publicly as trans, she faced Ericka Newsome. And in the first round of the fight — just 39 seconds in — Fox knocked out Newsome.

But you know what happened eight months earlier? Newsome was knocked out by Katalina Malungahu in just 36 seconds. If I’m doing my math right, Fox took 8% longer than her cisgender counterpart to knock out the same opponent.

Malungahu was hardly an unbeatable force, going 2-2 in her professional career and failing to land a notable professional fight less than a year after her bout with Newsome.

To use this fact to claim Fox had an unfair or dangerous advantage over her opponent is simply false.

This is a photo of an opponent after facing Fallon Fox
It’s impossible for something to be less true than this claim.

This is one of the images floating around social media, claiming this to be one of Fox’s opponents after a fight, and thus disqualifying Fox as an unfair opponent: The problem is, that photo on the right of Kay Hansen wasn’t taken after a fight against Fox, it was taken after another fight. And in fact, Fox never fought this woman.

The photo was taken years after Fox retired, in a fight against Kal Schwartz. You can see the video here.

Given the photo has been used to discredit and disqualify Fox from ever fighting again, you’d think those same people would be mounting that campaign against Schwartz, the woman who actually inflicted those injuries.

Nope.

By the way, Schwartz was hardly a wrecking ball in the sport, going just 2-1 in her professional career. That was the only TKO of her amateur or professional career.Cisgender women had ‘no chance’ against Fallon Fox
Fox lost to Ashlee Evans-Smith in her fourth professional match. So, false. https://www.outsports.com/2021/2/22/22296155/fallon-fox-trans-mma-fighter-lie-inclusion-misleading
#15178927
I was watching the track and field Olympic trials. I saw one dude running in the 800 meter female division. He qualified for the semis. I hope he got beat in the semis by the actual women in the heat, despite his obvious unfair advantage, running in the women's division. Haven't watched it yet though. Almost don't want to watch it now, the fucking circus farce it is.
#15179183
You are damn right it is a farce. When will these free range, dolphin safe, organic, gluten free, liberal arts graduates from rural Oregon get it through their non GMO heads that 'equal' does not mean the same thing as 'the same'. But just for them I will allow the Olympic Committee to award all of the trans athletes a gold star for participation.

Funny this. Why aren't there more female to male trans people competing in the men's events?
#15181715
I'm in @wat0n camp on this one.

I think it's fucking hilarious, and we basically have to let it play out in its glorious stupidity. Once it becomes obvious that trans women are shattering records, and cracking skulls left and right. It will be painfully obvious how stupid of an idea this is.

So let it be, watch it fail. Unfortunately, the collateral damage are the women that are going to have to take massive losses, lose out on scholarships, lose out on deals/opportunities, and what not until this stupidity gets exposed more.

But hey.. you never know, I could be totally wrong here.

For the record, I posted this while identifying as 14 year old Japanese girl.
Last edited by Rancid on 19 Jul 2021 22:52, edited 2 times in total.
#15181718
Drlee wrote:Funny this. Why aren't there more female to male trans people competing in the men's events?

I heard a piece come on NPR about this which included an interview with some guy from some 'out' athlete coalition.

I turned it off halfway. But it included the lie that 'because weight lifting has weight classes this weightlifter won't be competing against women much lighter than it. (Lie. Super heavyweight weightlifting is unlimited. For women I think it is over 78 kilos.)

And the point I quote here was touched on too.

Their answer was "'trans men' athletes aren't as comfortable 'coming out' as 'trans women's ones are.'

Yeah, okay.

What is your over under on us seeing a 90 pound 15 year old Olympic gymnast decide to 'transition' to 'male' and join the men's squad for example?

There is a possible solution. Bring back the more scientific designation of unic. Make up a unic division. But, maybe add it to the para Olympics or better yet make a separate event.

This weightlifter wouldn't qualify, it seems it is not even a unic based on a prior comment in here.
#15181730
Advantages never disappear no matter how many years of hormone therapy. Male to female transitions still enjoy a 20-25% upper body strength advantage due to skeletal bone density and muscle attachment points.

Similarly a female-male transition can never enjoy that 20% strength advantage, no matter how much growth hormone and testosterone is pumped into them.

This is all very dumb, but not as dumb as people transitioning races-which is also becoming reality.
#15182543
Thinking about it, why not just create an "anything goes" category, which would allow athletes to get all sorts of medical, chemical and hormonal enhancements? Roiding would be allowed here, for example.

Since the athletes are not natural, then of course there should be no problem with transgender ones.
#15182558
Look, all the evidence has been examined by the people who matter and it’s been decided she’s able to compete.

Not sure what the long post about sex after surgery has to do with it. Personally speaking, other people’s sex lives don’t interest me as long as no one is being abused.
#15182572
What if an able bodied athlete suffering from BIID cut off just enough of their limbs to qualify for the para Olympics? Would they have an unfair advantage over those with shorter/ fewer limbs?
#15182580
The entire idea is preposterous. And we have the world community shaking their collective heads in dismay.

Somewhere along the way, we have come to the conclusion that equal means "the same".

In every society, every person, has things about themselves that are limiting. I am too short to play professional basketball. That does not mean I can't play in basketball games locally but it does mean that I am never going to play for the NBA. I am not excluded from basketball.

A man who is a world class weightlifter (for example) decides he no longer wants to identify as a man. That is fine. He can still lift weights. He can even compete as a male just as he always has. The only thing he is precluded from doing is competing as a woman.

The entire dilemma boils down to a personal choice made by one man. This man is so filled with his idea of self worth that he believes the entire world should bend its will to this notion of his self worth. Medically one could ask whether he is actually committed to his transition. That is for the psychiatrists.

As I see this, it is a battle of egos. It is an example of the recent notion that decisions ought not have consequences. Good, bad or inconvenient.

I am not watching the Olympics. Two reasons. This level of absurdity is one of them. The other is that I do not wish to watch a great many people become needlessly ill to serve the egos and financial aspirations of a few.

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