The Wuhan virus—how are we doing? - Page 111 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Provision of the two UN HDI indicators other than GNP.
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#15182505
Doug64 wrote:We agree on something! You were being serious and not satirical, right? :eh:


Yes, I am being serious. I've said this before. If we are to live in a free society we have to allow people to be irresponsible and bare the cost of that.
#15182526
Rancid wrote:Yes, I am being serious. I've said this before. If we are to live in a free society we have to allow people to be irresponsible and bare the cost of that.

Then we actually are agreed. Without that freedom, democracy is no more than, to misquote Churchill, the worst form of tyranny--except for all the rest; it's better than communism, fascism, etc., in that occasionally the form the tyranny will take is put to a popular vote.

Godstud wrote::roll: You're really not getting it.

They estimate that 2018(the worst flu season on record in the USA) 35 million people in the USA got the flu. 34,200 Americans died of it.

They estimate that around 34 million Americans have gotten Covid-19. Over 610,000 Americans have died. That means that it is about 18 times deadlier than the flu, and there is evidence of long-term problems among Covid-19 patients.

The only thing the current pandemic can match up with, is the number of deaths from the Spanish Flu in 1918, in USA, where a similar amount of people died... sans modern medicine, of course.

You don't sound as smart when you consider the reality.

Yes, I get it. And I also get that the delta variant of the Wuhan virus is apparently no worse than the flu, if you have been vaccinated. And in the US, at least, by this point if you haven't been vaccinated, it's because you have chosen not to be. So generally speaking those that have been vaccinated are safe enough, and those that aren't have chosen to accept that risk. We should respect that.
#15182529
Yes, but only if you are VACCINATED. If not, then it's probably deadlier than the regular strain of Covid-19 and the facts already show that this is not "flu".

You were comparing covid-19 with a flu season and that's just stupid fuckery.
#15182538
Lots of people are unable to get vaccinated due to underlying health conditions. That's why herd immunity is important. You protect the group by protecting as many individuals as possible within it. At some point anyone who chooses not to vaccinate without cause should be excluded from public spaces.
#15182544
AFAIK wrote:Lots of people are unable to get vaccinated due to underlying health conditions.
It's a very small minority of people. It's not "lots". Saying it's "lots" is a false narrative.

AFAIK wrote:At some point anyone who chooses not to vaccinate without cause should be excluded from public spaces.
They should be excluded from more than that. They should be ostracized and punished, as they are being a health risk to the general public. At some point it should become mandatory.

I know that as an employer(bar/restaurant), I will want all my staff vaccinated, or they won't have a job. It is a valid way to not hire or even fire a person, as you can fire people for safety violations in the workplace.
#15182546
Godstud wrote:It's a very small minority of people. It's not "lots". Saying it's "lots" is a false narrative.
I don't care how small their numbers are and you shouldn't minimise them like that. There are people who haven't left their house or met a friend in over a year because they are scared to die.

Doug64 wrote:You were right the first time--it's the rate of death, not infection, that's important. You have an excellent chance of getting the flu every year, and every year it kills people. But we don't shut down the country every flu season.

The terror attacks on 9/11 killed fewer than 3,000 people but shutting down all aviation for 3 days was considered reasonable. The increased security theater at airports has caused more than 3,000 excess travel deaths as people drive more to avoid the inconvenience.

Many gov'ts spend different amounts to save lives depending on the cause of death. They'll spend 1 mil to prevent a road death, 2 mil for a boat death, 5 mil for a plane and 15 mil for a nuclear meltdown. Basically the more we can blame the victim for their death the less we're willing to help them avoid it.

Don't expect the gov't to make rational decisions about life and death.
#15182554
AFAIK wrote:There are people who haven't left their house or met a friend in over a year because they are scared to die.
Fear is not an underlying health issue. I am not minimizing their numbers, but to say there are "lots" is BS. There is a very small percentage who cannot be vaccinated. The rest of us, who can be vaccinated, need to do so, so those people can benefit from herd immunity.

As far as making vaccinations mandatory. You might not be able to do it, but you can sure make it so that if you are not being vaccinated(due to anything but medical reasons), you cannot work, travel, etc. in public.
#15182586
This disaster points out another issue. That is the abject weakness of Republican Politicians. They are so committed to maintaining their small but powerful coalition that they cannot find it in themselves to lead.

Leadership sometimes requires that you convince someone to do something with which they disagree. This includes, as a party apparatus, telling wayward members, such as the pathetically weak members of congress and the senate who are scoffing at vaccination, to STFU and get in line or we will primary you next time.

Republican lack of leadership has killed hundreds of thousands of people. There is no other way to parse that.
#15182600
Despite both the government and most business firms (including the one I am working for) encouraging people to vaccine I have no intention to do so --
unless some circumstances force me to do so, e.g. government coercion or an urgent need of emigration.

I have few social contact and take enough precautionary procedures that I don't think it's worth it risking all those possibly life-threatening side effects.
Also, it's very difficult to assess the effectiveness and genuineness of the vaccines provided by the oppressive Carrie Lam government.

I suspect those who die of mocking vaccines must have been ignorant on protecting themselves (and their surroundings) through other means.

https://hongkongfp.com/2021/05/27/dont- ... ccination/
#15182671
@Patrickov Protecting yourself, and others(something you really don't give a shit about, apparently), requires more than social distancing, good hygiene and masks. Vaccines are going to save you, and others, when these measures fail. Even the most vigilant people have lapses.

You're an idiot if you don't get a vaccine when it's readily available, and no amount of pseudointellectual backtalk is going to change that. :knife:
#15182700
@Godstud

The only thing I can say is that I am not alone. As of now, it seems up to 70% of Hongkongers are morons in your eyes, yet we have been largely successful so far.

EDIT: I hold no grudge against those who do and will certainly not discourage anybody from doing so. Also, vaccinated or not, not keeping vigilance and continuing the necessary distancing and protection practice would certainly undermine whatever effort one has made. To me it is certainly idiotic to denounce every means of protection, but I still see vaccination a bit inferior to other means in the sense that they are both not reliable enough and the politicization cast significant doubts on the vaccines.
Last edited by Patrickov on 27 Jul 2021 12:16, edited 1 time in total.
#15182708
I like how your video before play say 'RACE TO VACCINATE AS SYDNEY CASES CLIMB' @colliric. :lol:

So much for success given you can be certain cases will rise again once restrictions are lifted as that always happens in an unvaccinated society... even in Australia when cases still exist there. And I would say until your nation is vaccinated, lockdowns will continue to reoccur.
#15182713
@Patrickov :roll: If your logic was applied to birth control you'd be arguing that pulling out was the best method of birth control. :knife: Humans not making mistakes is not something you can actually rely on. That's why condoms and birth control pills are relied upon, for GOOD birth control.

Masks, social distancing, and good hygiene are NOT the best methods to avoid getting Covid-19. The vaccines are.

I also don't believe that 70% of HongKongers don't want to get vaccinated. I think that's "made up". Can you source that?
#15182721
@Godstud

I said "up to". The actual figures of those not wanting to vaccine is certainly smaller as they certainly are not the whole of that group. On the other hand, I know quite a number of those who did vaccine did not want to, but circumstances required them to.

Source of the 70% figure is by searching "hong kong vaccination" on Google. It reveals that only 30% got 2 jabs, and I got the "up to 70%" by simple subtraction, although admittedly I overlooked another 10% who had taken 1 jab.

From your perspective 40 is probably still a ridiculously low figure of vaccination.
#15182722
@Patrickov

Hong Kong has 7.5M people in it.
At least one dose 3.6M(40.8%)
Fully vaccinated 2.28M(30.3%)


So 70% of people in Hong Kong have had either one, or both shots. There is no reason to think that those who had one shot will not get the second one, either.

Incidentally, that's from the sources YOU provided, so your claim was in error.
#15182725
Godstud wrote:@Patrickov

Hong Kong has 7.5M people in it.
At least one dose 3.6M(40.8%)
Fully vaccinated 2.28M(30.3%)


So 70% of people in Hong Kong have had either one, or both shots. There is no reason to think that those who had one shot will not get the second one, either.

Incidentally, that's from the sources YOU provided, so your claim was in error.



The 40 figure is "at least", which means it must have included the 30 already.
#15182726
The numbers of vaccines given are rising steadily. Your claim that Hong Kongers aren't going to get vaccinated is not supported by fact, unless you can show me an ACTUAL source(specifically) that shows this, and quote the relevant text.

I can Google shit, but if you are making an argument, then the onus is upon you to provide actual evidence. You provided no evidence that , "I also don't believe that 70% of HongKongers don't want to get vaccinated.". :roll: That's dumbassery to say that when we can see that it's clearly not the case by the consistently rising numbers of people being vaccinated.

It's fools and morons who make claims that erode trust in proven science(vaccines) amongst the stupid people in society. Dunning-Kruger Effect at work.
#15182738
Godstud wrote:The numbers of vaccines given are rising steadily. Your claim that Hong Kongers aren't going to get vaccinated is not supported by fact, unless you can show me an ACTUAL source(specifically) that shows this, and quote the relevant text.

I can Google shit, but if you are making an argument, then the onus is upon you to provide actual evidence. You provided no evidence that , "I also don't believe that 70% of HongKongers don't want to get vaccinated.". :roll: That's dumbassery to say that when we can see that it's clearly not the case by the consistently rising numbers of people being vaccinated.

It's fools and morons who make claims that erode trust in proven science(vaccines) amongst the stupid people in society. Dunning-Kruger Effect at work.



By using the phrase "it seems", I have already made it clear in the beginning that I am making speculations, but it's one fully based on the data we have -- I did not make any data up. I have also admitted that the "70" in the "up to 70% being 'morons' in your eyes" was my mistake because I have overlooked the 1-jab count.

The current official figure is 5,401,561 total doses. It doesn't add up to 70% of the population having vaccinated, as those with multiple doses do have their every doses counted. Subtracting the number of multiple vaccinated means the 1-dose figure of 3,099,708 is closer to the number of individuals having taken part so far.

About your new point of "figures going up", of course they are.
The figures are cumulative so it can only go up, and given the usual circumstances it will only accelerate (more explanation below).
The only difference one can reasonably deduce is the progress so far.
Compared with the 70+ per cent figure in the West, Hong Kong is undoubtedly slow at this moment.

This clearly is a sign that doubts exist among a significant part of Hong Kong population. And this is after Apple Daily is forcefully shut down, so in the pro-government narrative there should have been no undesirable interference to tell the people NOT to vaccine now.

I am personally fearful of possible adverse effects (mistrust against the government is at worst secondary as this sentiment is still derived from the adverse effect risk)so I will wait until it's impractical to do so (e.g. coercion or I have to do something), but that does not mean I can keep it forever.

Everyone has their calculation, but I sometimes find you very intolerant.
More often than not you denounce those who don't 100% align with your ideals as absolute morons, which is probably not accurate and definitely does not help matters.


======== New Points Below ========

There is one factor that might force me to take vaccination sooner than I want to.

If the government lifts the lockdown, the risk of the virus re-spreading will undoubtedly increase. Having a lot of people vaccinated means the virus would co-exist with the people. That would be the time when I have to take it so as not to catch it, and this will explain the acceleration of vaccination count.

It is always a gamble between the disease and adverse effects. I am not living a super-healthy life (even though I neither smoke nor drink, I do not do enough exercise and I have bad sleeping habits) so I have my worries.
#15182746
Excerpts from the July 2 issue of The Week, a British magazine with a U.S. edition:

. . . 881 Secret Service employees tested positive for COVID-19 between March 1, 2020 and March 9, 2021. The agency noted that its employees were “in continuous contact with the public during the pandemic” at campaign events, White House gatherings, and the January inauguration. At the height of the pandemic, then-President Trump insisted on proceeding with speeches, private events, and vacations.

COVID-19 robbed a total of 6.5 million years of life from the Americans it killed in 2020, according to a Pew Research Center analysis. COVID deaths shortened victims lives by an average of 14 years.
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