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#15183442
wat0n wrote:The best case I've seen for claiming FDR's policies extended the Great Depression is that his pro-union measures effectively made hiring more expensive and this served to extend the crisis, the other one theory I've heard actually blames the Fed for becoming more restrictive in 1937. But honestly, just as one can mention those two examples of restrictive policies, one can also point out that FDR left the gold standard in 1933 and carried out a big devaluation before going back into it, and that this was pivotal to finally stopping the stage of contraction of the first years of the Depression. The Fed has something to say about this:

https://www.federalreservehistory.org/e ... ld-program

So in all, I think FDR's monetary policies helped end the crisis and plenty of evidence suggests this is the case.


There were also government introduced price controls especially in agriculture on top of general price controls by industries and collusion because FDR allowed for the sectors to self-regulate without government involvement if the sector reached agreement with the said union.

These are the 2-3 main ideas that I can remember when I talked and watched something on the subject.
1) Unions above.
2) Price controls by government
3) Monopolistic self-regulation and price control by sectors.
#15183444
JohnRawls wrote:There were also government introduced price controls especially in agriculture on top of general price controls by industries and collusion because FDR allowed for the sectors to self-regulate without government involvement if the sector reached agreement with the said union.

These are the 2-3 main ideas that I can remember when I talked and watched something on the subject.
1) Unions above.
2) Price controls by government
3) Monopolistic self-regulation and price control by sectors.


Right, but note that the gold standard itself is also a form of price control (of gold). So that argument kind of goes both ways.

Furthermore, you also have to consider the 1930s were a particularly bad period for US agriculture because of the dust bowls. This also served to extend the Depression.
#15183445
wat0n wrote:Right, but note that the gold standard itself is also a form of price control (of gold). So that argument kind of goes both ways.

Furthermore, you also have to consider the 1930s were a particularly bad period for US agriculture because of the dust bowls. This also served to extend the Depression.


I really do not know any examples when price controls or creation of artificial monopolies and cartels ever were beneficial to anyone or to the economy at large. I mean I understand why it was done (To stem the bleeding) but long term this prevented the recovery and probably more things that I am not qualified to talk about since I am not an economist.
#15183446
JohnRawls wrote:...the problem was that some of the legislation that prevented firing of people, introduced price controls, prevented proper recruitment and so on.


If I remember correctly you're a big fan of the EU. The EU pride itself on employment laws, fair competition and a proper recruitment with its four freedoms. And the EU including the UK is the biggest economy on the planet. So clearly these things aren't restrictive and in many cases can be very beneficial. But I tell you who doesn't like workers rights and fair competition. People who support the Austrian School.

As I said, FDRs record speaks for itself. Sure WW2 helped, but you can trace all the way back to FDR for America becoming todays leading superpower. That is not something you can debate really. And given that, any idea that things could have been better if we did things differently is not considering that America got itself out of a depression and have high standards of living for those of normal working pay (who also were single income households) in three decades. That is impressive. And it wasn't until the 80s that the wheels came off in America and that can be traced to Reagan - Austrian School. So what does that tell you? That's right, an economy that is free is an economy that is run like the wild West and eventually things take a turn for the worse.
Last edited by B0ycey on 01 Aug 2021 17:19, edited 1 time in total.
#15183447
JohnRawls wrote:
@SpecialOlympian @B0ycey @late

I am not an economist so I can't really provide you specifics. But i know some economists who are far from US or the usual suspects in the US. They also say the same thing that FDR policies extended the great depression and not everything was conducted correctly. Most of the critique is NOT about the government employment programs as I understand.

The main problem was that Roosevelt policies interfered in to the whole economic cycle that both cushioned the impact but also stagnated the recovery and rebalancing. Basically, cushioning the impact is fine but stagnating the recovery is not something good for obvious reasons. As much as I understand the infrastructure spending is NOT something that economists are against and even explain why it was needed and necessary at the time.

I am not sure why are you so hostile about it. I am not advocating that FDR screwed everything up :eh:



Because I've seen this before. It's usually people knocking FDR, but what they mean is he should have let the economy recover on it's own. Doing that in a deflationary spiral is basically economic suicide.

And yes, it pisses me off because it's a few different kinds of stupid.
#15183448
JohnRawls wrote:I really do not know any examples when price controls or creation of artificial monopolies and cartels ever were beneficial to anyone or to the economy at large. I mean I understand why it was done (To stem the bleeding) but long term this prevented the recovery and probably more things that I am not qualified to talk about since I am not an economist.


It's an issue of magnitudes here. Those things probably did indeed hurt, and dust bowls had an independent negative effect as well.

And the positive effect of lifting the gold standard outweighed anything else FDR did. The economy began to grow again shortly after the banking situation had been sorted out.
#15183450
B0ycey wrote:If I remember correctly you're a big fan of the EU. The EU pride itself on employment laws, fair competition and a proper recruitment with its four freedoms. And the EU including the UK is the biggest economy on the planet. So clearly these things aren't restrictive and in many cases can be very beneficial. But I tell you who doesn't like workers rights and fair competition. People who support the Austrian School.

As I said, FDRs record speaks for itself. Sure WW2 helped, but you can trace all the way back to FDR for America becoming todays leading superpower. That is not something you can debate really. And given that, any idea that things could have been better if we did things differently is not considering that America got itself out of a depression and have high standards of living for those of normal working pay (who also were single income households) in three decades. That is impressive. And it wasn't until the 80s that the wheels came off in America and that can be traced to Reagan - Austrian School. So what does that tell you? That's right, an economy that is free is an economy that is run like the wild West and eventually things take a turn for the worse.


I am. EU is very unequal in this regard though, it is possible to have protected work force along with flexible labour market. (Denmark is an example) Simply putting protections and making it hard to fire people just makes the companies conservative with recruitment which leads to more unemployment long term.
#15183454
JohnRawls wrote:I am. EU is very unequal in this regard though, it is possible to have protected work force along with flexible labour market. (Denmark is an example) Simply putting protections and making it hard to fire people just makes the companies conservative with recruitment which leads to more unemployment long term.


Companies will always employ if they need to John. They don't hire on a whim and always are Conservative with recruitment, whatever the state of the economy. Today for example, when inflation and costs are going up and businesses are trying to regain their profits they lost last year, employment opportunities have never been so good in the UK right now.

But I digest. The point is the EU makes their economy work with VERY HIGH standards in employment and recruitment and I don't see why America couldn't have done likewise. Although we know FDR got America out of the depression so really his record speaks for him anyway.
#15183458
JohnRawls wrote:@SpecialOlympian @B0ycey @late

I am not an economist so I can't really provide you specifics. But i know some economists who are far from US or the usual suspects in the US. They also say the same thing that FDR policies extended the great depression and not everything was conducted correctly. Most of the critique is NOT about the government employment programs as I understand.

The main problem was that Roosevelt policies interfered in to the whole economic cycle that both cushioned the impact but also stagnated the recovery and rebalancing. Basically, cushioning the impact is fine but stagnating the recovery is not something good for obvious reasons. As much as I understand the infrastructure spending is NOT something that economists are against and even explain why it was needed and necessary at the time.

I am not sure why are you so hostile about it. I am not advocating that FDR screwed everything up :eh:


I work in finance and my opinion is that economists are mostly over-educated morons who can't prove their shit because they don't have spare universes to test their hypotheses.

And no, Keynesian economic theory works. Paying people to dig holes and then fill them up if they're not building infrastucture is legit good, and the best a nation can do with the unlimited wealth a sovereign nation can will into existence. Everyone who hates Roosevelt's economic policies are Ayn Rand worshipping weirdos who should be disregarded.
#15183459
Like what kind of idiot do you have to be to ask if massive invesetment in public works was bad or somehow prolonged The Depression. I don't know, do you think giving people jobs and creating things like the Hoover Dam (which, lol, just finally got the massive insult that was) because capitalism failed was a good or a bad thing? And even if it was a bad thing, the question is still: "Why are we prolonging the existence of the thing that failed us?"
#15183464
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin

It's incredibly arrogant of you to say that experience doesn't matter. IT DOES. Experience in any given field matters a lot.




Except when that experience is coming from a Republican, right :) ?

And senility has to be factored in as well. Senility can erase all accrued experience. That KKK Cyclops Joe is senile is beyond debate. I doubt senile Joe even recalls his stint as KKK Cyclops. :)
#15183465
Juin wrote:Except when that experience is coming from a Republican, right :) ?

And senility has to be factored in as well. Senility can erase all accrued experience. That KKK Cyclops Joe is senile is beyond debate. I doubt senile Joe even recalls his stint as KKK Cyclops. :)


Biden is old, but not senile. It's about time people stop with that nonsense :roll:
#15183466
SpecialOlympian wrote:Like what kind of idiot do you have to be to ask if massive invesetment in public works was bad or somehow prolonged The Depression. I don't know, do you think giving people jobs and creating things like the Hoover Dam (which, lol, just finally got the massive insult that was) because capitalism failed was a good or a bad thing? And even if it was a bad thing, the question is still: "Why are we prolonging the existence of the thing that failed us?"


Your not reading anything. For the 5th time now, infrastructure investment wasn't the problem :knife:
#15183469
You didn't really say anything that was worth reading. You didn't explain anything. And what you are talking about is a bunch of economic historians' stupid opinions about how Roosevelt didn't save capitalism to their satisfaction.

And let me tell you one thing about economic historians: They all work for the Cato Institute, because they are the only ones who pay people to think seriously about why Roosevelt didn't do enough for capitalism. Which actually didn't fail, and actually Roosevelt failed capitalism and not the other way around.
#15183474
SpecialOlympian wrote:You didn't really say anything that was worth reading. You didn't explain anything. And what you are talking about is a bunch of economic historians' stupid opinions about how Roosevelt didn't save capitalism to their satisfaction.

And let me tell you one thing about economic historians: They all work for the Cato Institute, because they are the only ones who pay people to think seriously about why Roosevelt didn't do enough for capitalism. Which actually didn't fail, and actually Roosevelt failed capitalism and not the other way around.


No, they did not/do not work for the CATO institute. (Majority of the published works)
#15183476
ckaihatsu wrote:
*You're* the one who started out with your triumphalism for FDR, and now you're avoiding addressing his presidency. Whatever.



Not whatever. This history of FDR recently won the Pulitzer. Remember me saying not many cover everything he did? This guy may have done it, but it took 2 generously sized books to do it.

Image

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074QGDNF7?ots=1&slotNum=0&imprToken=7abd8181-6efd-c0da-5bb&tag=arcsite-20

You want to waltz in here and shovel crap, fine.

But don't try and put your ignorance on me. If history was easy, everyone would do it.
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