DOJ Puts States on Notice About Election Law Changes - Page 6 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15183495
Maybe the problem is a former POTUS loudly whining about how he could never, ever lose and not the system?

Lol 60%, cite it fucker. You're telling me a greater portion of the electorate than the people who voted for Biden and got what they wanted doubt the results? Haha
#15183496
wat0n wrote:Having only around 60% of the public trusting the fairness of elections IS a problem. What are you talking about?


It's a problem, but it's basically an unsolvable problem, because this 60% of people (assuming 60% is accurate) are basically frustrated with stuff that has nothing to do with the actual election process. As I said before, they are angry, and don't know why, so they pick the easiest thing to attack, which is the election process itself. A dangerous thing to do, of course.

It's not clear if there's a way to make these people happy, especially after having so much fear/hate ingrained in them by their party.
#15183503
@Rancid

If they are angry, then they need to have a good legitimate reason for being angry. If they have a good legitimate reason for being angry then they need to direct their anger at the proper target. You can create bigger problems and enemies for yourself when you aim your anger at the wrong target. And that's if you even have a good legitimate reason for being angry in the first place. Personally, I don't think they do have a good legitimate reason to be angry based on what I have seen. I think this anger stems from the realization that they might have to actually start sharing the country and the opportunities it has to offer with non-white people and those same non-white people will be treated as one of their equals and will share equal power. A lot of people get angry when their sense of entitlement to something that they are not entitled to is violated or they are prevented from exercising their sense of entitlement to something they are not entitled to.

Edit:

For example, a lot of southern white slave owners were angry when they lost the Civil War and felt their sense of entitlement to that free black slave labor was being violated given that slavery was abolished. But they weren't entitled to free labor. But they felt they were and were thus angry when that sense of entitlement was violated or being prevented from being exercised. This led to the rise of the KKK during the Reconstruction Period in American history. This situation here is no different in many respects in what the republican legislatures are trying to accomplish with these voter suppression laws aimed primarily at black voters and preventing them from having their vote count or matter. The republicans have a sense of entitlement to power and political office. They feel that power and political office is their birthright and can belong to nobody else. Same thing as the southern white slave owners felt about their entitlement to free slave labor that made them rich and powerful. These moves by republican legislatures is akin to attempting to commit a hate crime against freedom and democracy.
Last edited by Politics_Observer on 01 Aug 2021 22:41, edited 2 times in total.
#15183505
Politics_Observer wrote:@Rancid

If they are angry, then they need to have a good legitimate reason for being angry. If they have a good legitimate reason for being angry then they need to direct their anger at the proper target. You can create bigger problems and enemies for yourself when you aim your anger at the wrong target. And that's if you even have a good legitimate reason for being angry in the first place. Personally, I don't think they do have a good legitimate reason to be angry based on what I have seen. I think this anger stems from the realization that they might have to actually start sharing the country and the opportunities it has to offer with non-white people and those same non-white people will be treated as one of their equals and will share equal power. A lot of people get angry when their sense of entitlement to something that they are not entitled to is violated or they are prevented from exercising their sense of entitlement to something they are not entitled to.

Edit:

For example, a lot of southern white slave owners were angry when they lost the Civil War and felt their sense of entitlement to that free black slave labor was being violated given that slavery was abolished. But they weren't entitled to free labor. But they felt they were and were thus angry when that sense of entitlement was violated or being prevented from being exercised. This led to the rise of the KKK during the Reconstruction Period in American history. This situation here is no different in many respects in what the republican legislatures are trying to accomplish with these voter suppression laws aimed primarily at black voters and preventing them from having their vote count or matter. The republicans have a sense of entitlement to power and political office. They feel that power and political office is their birthright and can belong to nobody else. Same thing as the southern white slave owners felt about their entitlement to free slave labor that made them rich and powerful.


Of course, but we're talking about people that are too stupid to understand their own stupidity.
#15183506
@Rancid

I edited my post above to further include that what these republican legislatures are trying to accomplish is akin to a hate crime against freedom and democracy. Much like the sort of hate crimes that the KKK committed against black people. There is nothing patriotic or free or democratic about white supremacy.
#15183507
Rancid wrote:Of course, but we're talking about people that are too stupid to understand their own stupidity.


But they have feelings, Rancid. And their feelings are hurt.

Should we not care about the people who proudly wore t-shirts with Trump's face on them that said "F*ck your feelings?"
#15183509
@SpecialOlympian

It's funny how when the shoe is on the other foot that republicans think we should care about their "feelings" when they weren't too concerned about our feelings when the shoe wasn't on their foot but on ours.
Last edited by Politics_Observer on 01 Aug 2021 23:11, edited 1 time in total.
#15183512
SpecialOlympian wrote:Maybe the problem is a former POTUS loudly whining about how he could never, ever lose and not the system?

Lol 60%, cite it fucker. You're telling me a greater portion of the electorate than the people who voted for Biden and got what they wanted doubt the results? Haha


Ok.

You can see the Morning Consult survey I posted earlier. Republican trust is actually lower than 60%, and after the 2020 election it plummets (and Democrat trust shoots up - independents remain basically flat):

Image

Image

https://morningconsult.com/form/trackin ... elections/

MIT's Election Lab does a survey (Survey of the Performance of American Elections) that deals with this issue in more detail, here trust in US elections is higher... But not by all that much (instead of 60%, you may leave it at 60-70% depending on the aspect of the process you want to consider). You can check the report out here:

https://electionlab.mit.edu/research/pr ... -elections

Full report: http://electionlab.mit.edu/sites/defaul ... ch2021.pdf

Let's check confidence in counting, for example. It seems most people are willing to trust their own vote was properly counted and also trust in the counting process seems to be higher for more local authorities:

Image

Here are some time series:

Image

Image

Image

Republicans traditionally showed somewhat lower trust in the process, but now the partisan difference widened by a lot:

Image

As for different types of voter fraud, it's fair to say that only 60-70% of all voters believe it never happens or only infrequently:

Image

And there's again a partisan difference that's widened for the last election:

Image

At last, there seems to be agreement among voters about a fair amount of measures to support the process (and also about a couple of measures that don't have all that much support, like internet and cell phone voting):

Image

In particular, a majority of both Democrat and Republican voters seem to agree with paper backups, change of registration when moving, having nonpartisan election officials, making the election day a holiday and requesting a photo ID. There is also low support for internet and cell phone voting among people from both parties as I stated earlier. A majority of all voters would also support automatic voter registration, election day registration and voting on weekends.

@Rancid indeed, I think some of that is definitely going on. Since under the Constitution elections are managed and regulated largely by the States (the federal government can only regulate some minimum standards) it's not surprising people don't feel they are in control. I think it's not just partisanship, as confidence in national results is also lower than for more local ones, but this attitude is of course more prevalent among Republicans.
#15183515
Politics_Observer wrote:@SpecialOlympian

It's funny how when the shoe is on the other foot that republicans think we should care about their "feelings" when they weren't too concerned about our feelings when the shoe wasn't on their foot but on ours.



It's 100% projection.

They call everyone pedophiles and have Dennis Hastert as their Speaker or Matt Gaetz as their chief Trumpist.

When Republicans call you a pedo it means they have a child locked up in their basement. They have no imagination and can only draw from their lived experiences to insult you.
#15183520
Politics_Observer wrote:@Rancid


For example, a lot of southern white slave owners were angry when they lost the Civil War and felt their sense of entitlement to that free black slave labor was being violated given that slavery was abolished. But they weren't entitled to free labor. But they felt they were and were thus angry when that sense of entitlement was violated or being prevented from being exercised. This led to the rise of the KKK during the Reconstruction Period in American history. This situation here is no different in many respects in what the republican legislatures are trying to accomplish with these voter suppression laws aimed primarily at black voters and preventing them from having their vote count or matter. The republicans have a sense of entitlement to power and political office. They feel that power and political office is their birthright and can belong to nobody else. Same thing as the southern white slave owners felt about their entitlement to free slave labor that made them rich and powerful. These moves by republican legislatures is akin to attempting to commit a hate crime against freedom and democracy.





Another excellent and lengthy epistle on the poor blacks of Georgia. :) What exactly is your beef? Didn't Georgia just send a warlock to the Senate? And this was handily done without any blacks dying of thirst at polling stations! Or at least not enough to make the news. And, heck, what is Herschel Walker doing flirting around with Republicans? Don't look like Herschel Walker got your memo, Politics_Observer. Herschel Walker supposed to be peeing in his pants at the approach of Republicans. If he isn't, it is is because your epistles haven't reached him yet.
#15183546
wat0n wrote:Ok.

You can see the Morning Consult survey I posted earlier. Republican trust is actually lower than 60%, and after the 2020 election it plummets (and Democrat trust shoots up - independents remain basically flat):

Image

Image

https://morningconsult.com/form/trackin ... elections/

MIT's Election Lab does a survey (Survey of the Performance of American Elections) that deals with this issue in more detail, here trust in US elections is higher... But not by all that much (instead of 60%, you may leave it at 60-70% depending on the aspect of the process you want to consider). You can check the report out here:

https://electionlab.mit.edu/research/pr ... -elections

Full report: http://electionlab.mit.edu/sites/defaul ... ch2021.pdf

Let's check confidence in counting, for example. It seems most people are willing to trust their own vote was properly counted and also trust in the counting process seems to be higher for more local authorities:

Image

Here are some time series:

Image

Image

Image

Republicans traditionally showed somewhat lower trust in the process, but now the partisan difference widened by a lot:

Image

As for different types of voter fraud, it's fair to say that only 60-70% of all voters believe it never happens or only infrequently:

Image

And there's again a partisan difference that's widened for the last election:

Image

At last, there seems to be agreement among voters about a fair amount of measures to support the process (and also about a couple of measures that don't have all that much support, like internet and cell phone voting):

Image

In particular, a majority of both Democrat and Republican voters seem to agree with paper backups, change of registration when moving, having nonpartisan election officials, making the election day a holiday and requesting a photo ID. There is also low support for internet and cell phone voting among people from both parties as I stated earlier. A majority of all voters would also support automatic voter registration, election day registration and voting on weekends.

@Rancid indeed, I think some of that is definitely going on. Since under the Constitution elections are managed and regulated largely by the States (the federal government can only regulate some minimum standards) it's not surprising people don't feel they are in control. I think it's not just partisanship, as confidence in national results is also lower than for more local ones, but this attitude is of course more prevalent among Republicans.



I didn't read this because I don't care what Republicans think.
#15183551
Silly me for thinking you were capable of approaching this issue in an honest manner, @SpecialOlympian. Even then, only 70-80% of Democrats seem to trust the process - meaning that 20-30% don't really trust it all that much either. That's also fairly high, even if not nearly as much as for Republicans.
#15183555
I've been nothing but honest. I think Republicans are stupid bitch babies and we should do nothing to cater to their whims. Why even bother? They threw their tantrum and Biden is still president. Not my first choice, but the system prevailed.

You're the delusional moron who thinks catering to the Q cultists who literally wish for the mass execution of Democrats on live television in a series of public executions will solve or fix anything.

Why should I want to cede any ground to these people on any issue? They think I drink baby blood and dream of murdering me. What compromise can be made with an insane person?
#15183572
wat0n wrote:I'm not mad at all. I'm not insulting anyone :)

Stating you are ignorant about a topic is not an insult.

As I said, the estimate will also include the effects of other laws that were concurrently passed with voter ID laws, if any. Also, I don't know why you changed the goalposts here: I was clear and explicit this conversation is about voter ID laws.

It doesn't have the same effect if turnout and registration are not affected.

Eh, actually the election laws of southern states would have also disenfranchised plenty of illiterate whites if the grandfather clauses had not been passed (and that's exactly what happened after they were banned by the SCOTUS). The Constitutional issue with the grandfather clauses circa 1915 was that they treated Black and Whites differently based on the pre-1871 (15th amendment) status quo, after the SCOTUS ruling southern states had to choose between enfranchising everyone or disenfranchisement of illiterate whites as well. They chose the latter, and that was legal until using literacy tests to decide who had a right to vote was banned.

It's not impossible for them, they only need to bring their IDs. That's it, and no it's not an impossible standard to fulfill just as getting a driver's license is not. It's far easier than learning to read as an adult.

No, it's not a "minor and unsupported methodology criticism" when the results are overturned by new research that addresses those. It means the methodological differences may be the reason why the authors of the second paper you cited found an effect to begin with, as their estimate does not control for pre-existing differences in electoral behavior between states with and without those voter ID laws. Hence the global temps vs piracy incidents graphs - it's literally the same thing (omitted variable bias).

This is also an empirical and not a purely logical question. If you have other research you can cite, I'll be happy to read it on its merits and compare it with the (recent) paper PO cited.


I have already addressed all of this and this contains no new information or argument. Please refer to my previous posts. Thank you.

There is no evidence that these laws promote public confidence in the system. The paper you vociferously defend disproves this argument of yours. The fact that you continue to make that argument while defending the paper that disproves your argument is illogical.

————————

I expect there will be continued legal disputes as these laws are taken to court by the DOJ and others.

Even if there is no evidence that these laws promote public confidence in the system, Republicans will no doubt continue to use this argument to rationalise their attempts to effectively disenfranchise legal voters.

If poor and BIPOC voters voted Republican, none of these voting restrictions would be taking place.

Also, support for anti-democratic measures in the Republican party right now is associated with signs of “ethnic antagonism”. (https://www.pnas.org/content/117/37/22752) In other words, the easiest ways to predict who supports these types of voter restrictions, look for racist people like Marjorie Taylor Greene.
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