9 districts fall to Taliban in past 24 hours - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15183634
Politics_Observer wrote:@Sandzak

Unfortunately, they succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. Gavrilo Princip's bullet killed at least 10 million people globally. That's at least. Not only did they destroy the Austro-Hungarian Empire but they destroyed all of Europe and many parts of Russia. The ends certainly didn't justify the means. Sometimes, you have to be careful for what you wish for because sometimes you will get far more than what you bargained for.





A little caution is called for here. Garrido Princip's bullet was the spark, not the cause of WWI. The antagonists were all cooked, locked and ready to rock. One could almost say up to Gavrilo that WWI was already a war in search of a spark. Any spark, just that it be a good spark.
#15183651
@Juin

I am not sure if that is completely true. World War I was stupid and preventable. Gavrilo Princip deserves some blame but not all the blame. Other countries involved in the mobilization of troops also deserve some blame too. The response to the assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand didn't mean war was necessary.
#15183654
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin

I am not sure if that is completely true. World War I was stupid and preventable. Gavrilo Princip deserves some blame but not all the blame. Other countries involved in the mobilization of troops also deserve some blame too. The response to the assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand didn't mean war was necessary.


@Politics_Observer ,

Austria-Hungary was determined to crush Serbia, ever since the Serbian royal Obrenovic dynasty was replaced in a nationalist military coup. Likewise, the German General Staff was determined to crush France sooner or later-and rather sooner than later, and Russia into the bargain. It was all logical and probably inevitable given the geopolitics.

Afghanistan and the other Middle East Forever Wars however have no discernible strategic point to them whatsoever and were and are absolutely senseless, serving no purpose even from a chickenhawk Neoconservative perspective.
#15183656
@annatar1914

Ohh I wouldn't be surprised if the Austro Hungarian Empire had it out for Serbia and was looking for an excuse to crush Serbia but that doesn't make the war necessary or unpreventable. The assassination was not committed by an opposing government but by "The Black Hand" and the Astro-Hungarian Empire were making demands of Serbia that no government could ever accept. As written here:

History.com wrote:
As the reading proceeded it seemed absolutely impossible that any State in the world could accept it, or that any acceptance, however abject, would satisfy the aggressor. The parishes of Fermanagh and Tyrone faded back into the mists and squalls of Ireland, and a strange light beganto fall upon the map of Europe.

On receipt of the ultimatum, Serbia at once appealed to Russia, whose council of ministers met on July 24 to determine a course of action. Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Sazonov voiced his belief that Germany was using the crisis over the archduke’s death as a pretext for starting a preventive war to defend its interests in the region. Defying Austro-German expectations that Russia would back down in the case of such a conflict, the council agreed to order four military districts to prepare for mobilization.

Meanwhile, in Belgrade on the afternoon of July 25, convinced that Austria-Hungary was preparing for a fight, Serbian Prime Minister Nicola Pasic ordered the Serbian army to mobilize. Pasic himself delivered the Serbian answer to the ultimatum to Gieslingen at the Austrian embassy, just before the 6 p.m. deadline. Serbia’s response effectively accepted all terms of the ultimatum but one: it would not accept Austria-Hungary’s participation in any internal inquiry, stating that this would be a violation of the Constitution and of the law of criminal procedure. This response did much to appeal Pasic and his country to international observers of the conflict; to Vienna, however, it made little difference. Gieslingen, bags packed and car waiting to drive him to the railroad station, broke the Dual Monarchy’s diplomatic relations with Serbia and left to catch his train. Three days later, on July 28, 1914, Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia, beginning the First World War.



https://www.history.com/this-day-in-his ... -to-serbia

They weren't just merely asking for the perpetrators of the crime to be handed over so they can prosecute them, they were making some unreasonable demands of Serbia. Moreover, was it really necessary to involve other countries in such a way that would create a large war out of a much smaller dispute? As far as Afghanistan, we asked the Taliban to hand over the perpetrators of the September 11 terrorist attack and they refused. We simply couldn't sit by and wait for another terrorist attack to kill another 3,000 Americans. A government has an obligation to protect it's citizens from foreign terrorist threats. In the case of Serbia, they probably would have handed over Gavrilo Princip if the Austro Hungarian Empire made reasonable demands and didn't attack Serbia with it's Army. This wasn't the case with the Taliban. The Taliban is not Serbia or the Serbian government.
#15183658
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin

I am not sure if that is completely true. World War I was stupid and preventable. Gavrilo Princip deserves some blame but not all the blame. Other countries involved in the mobilization of troops also deserve some blame too. The response to the assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand didn't mean war was necessary
.




I dont believe World War I was preventable. annatar1914 points out how some of the players were already committed to some course of action. The plans and timetables had already been all drawn out. The hostilities couldnt have even been limited or localised, cause the various parties' plans did not allow for localised gains by the others. It would be fine for Germany if Russia sat it out, and let Germany crush France; but then how does Russia stand up to the inevitable German onslaught on Russia? So Russia had to mobilise and implement the plans and timetables arranged with France. England could not sit it out either; If Germany crushed France, and even without crushing Russia, Germany stood in a good position to challenge and maybe seize dominancy of the oceans from England.....




Politics_Observer << They weren't just merely asking for the perpetrators of the crime to be handed over so they can prosecute them, they were making some unreasonable demands of Serbia. Moreover, was it really necessary to involve other countries in such a way that would create a large war out of a much smaller dispute?<<


The demands on Serbia were unreasonable because Austria-Hungary did not want Serbia to comply. Austria-Hungary was already committed to war, Gavrilo or no Gavrilo.

And the other countries were not brought, or dragged into it. They all already had plans and timetables geared towards war.
#15183660
@Juin

Yes and the Austria Hungarian Empire didn't need to make such unreasonable demands upon Serbia to bring the perpetrators of the crime to justice. I think Serbia probably would have handed them over for prosecution. But because the Austria Hungarian Empire did make such unreasonable demands that no government could accept, they helped in starting a preventable war. The leaders of the Austria Hungarian Empire didn't understand or simply didn't care what they were about to start. They didn't seem to have any real appreciation for it. And unfortunately, that helped to lead to the death of 10 million lives. All of which, could have been prevented by a few level cool headed leaders.
#15183664
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin

Yes and the Austria Hungarian Empire didn't need to make such unreasonable demands upon Serbia to bring the perpetrators of the crime to justice. I think Serbia probably would have handed them over for prosecution. But because the Austria Hungarian Empire did make such unreasonable demands that no government could accept, they helped in starting a preventable war. The leaders of the Austria Hungarian Empire didn't understand or simply didn't care what they were about to start. They didn't seem to have any real appreciation for it. And unfortunately, that helped to lead to the death of 10 million lives. All of which, could have been prevented by a few level cool headed leaders.




Political_Observer,

There was a month of July, know thereafter to history as the July crisis, in which cooler heads attempted, and failed to stop the spiraling crisis. So it was not for want of trying.

It is pointless talking about what Austria-Hungary should have done to avoid war with Serbia, given that its inclination was to attack Serbia, irrespective of what Serbia did. An Austro-Hungarian ultimatum was issued to Serbia; which Serbia was prepared to comply with all the demands, except demands that touched on their sovereignty.

Austria-Hungary's only concern was what Russia would do. That is the only factor that could have caused a pause in Vienna. To counter this Austria-Hungary needed Germany to cover its back. Germany gave Austria-Hungary a blank check. As annatar1914 pointed out, Germany already had its plans and timetables ready for war against France. More importantly, Germany considered time as acting against it; with time, France and Russia, already arming fast, would close the gap with Germany. So, in the estimation of Germany, it was in their benefit that the demonstration of arms with France, and/or Russia be sooner rather than later.....

Its all there.
#15183667
@Juin

I will just say this, I don't think the leaders of Austria Hungary valued peace nor did they fully understand what they were about to unleash. If they did, they would not have been so inclined to find any sort of flimsy excuse to attack Serbia. They would have worked to solve the problem at hand all while preventing war.
#15183677
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin

I will just say this, I don't think the leaders of Austria Hungary valued peace nor did they fully understand what they were about to unleash. If they did, they would not have been so inclined to find any sort of flimsy excuse to attack Serbia. They would have worked to solve the problem at hand all while preventing war.




Its not as simple as that. The Balkans has some of the most complicated history for that small an area. Maybe also because of its ethnic diversity. Each of the ethnic groups fighting among each other for independence, or to reclaim historical territories. Then you have bigger outside players in the persons of Russia, Ottomans, Austria-Hungary etc. All kinds of combinations of alliances popped up to defend against other combinations. Each small ethnicity reaching out to Russia, or Austria, or Germans as is convenient to confront others....

Austria-Hungary could very well have had an eye more on Russia- Serbia being cozy with Russia- when it decided to attack Serbi, than mere intolerance for Serbian independence. And with the polyglot of ethnicitie that made up the Austro-Hungarian empire, independent states like Serbia also threatened the stability of Austria-Hungary.

It may very well be that the Austro-Hungarians did not fully understand what they were about to unleash; but that goes for the rest of the other Europeans powers as well.

But they- Germany especially- had a carefully drawn up estimate of exactly what they wanted and how they were going to go about it. And it did look good on paper.

Germany, since Bismark, had been on the ascendant; and had under Bismark defeated France just decades earlier. And the balance of forces indicated it could do it again. But France had also recovered from Bismark's defeat, and was growing very rapidly economically; its military was also growing; meaning Germany's advantage was reducing with passing time. France was also loaning money to Russia from its new found wealth; which loans also meant Russia was improving militarily and economically. The odds for Germany were not improving with time.

Imperial Germany had to strike sooner rather than later, or forget all about it.
#15183720
The Kabul government in Afghanistan has had 20 years of American military and financial support with which to establish itself as the government of Afghanistan. 20 years. It has not been enough to avoid a civil war.

'Nuf said.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.
#15184450
Torus34 wrote:The Kabul government in Afghanistan has had 20 years of American military and financial support...

American support?

Like did Jeffrey Epstein get some Taliban leaders to sleep with underage girls on camera?

Did the Clintons bring in their relatives to clean up on mineral contracts?

Did the IMF lend them billions of unpayable loans, and then suggest cutting all human services to zero?

Or was the "help" just non-stop bombing?

Help?
#15184482
QatzelOk wrote:American support?

Like did Jeffrey Epstein get some Taliban leaders to sleep with underage girls on camera?

Did the Clintons bring in their relatives to clean up on mineral contracts?

Did the IMF lend them billions of unpayable loans, and then suggest cutting all human services to zero?

Or was the "help" just non-stop bombing?

Help?


The most important 'help' was bribing local Afghan Warlords to support the Kabul Government. These Warlords also grow a lot of opium which the Taliban tried to destroy the last time around so it was an economic 'match made in heaven'. Feudalism and Liberalism together at last! :excited:
#15184485
QatzelOk wrote:American support?

Like did Jeffrey Epstein get some Taliban leaders to sleep with underage girls on camera?

Did the Clintons bring in their relatives to clean up on mineral contracts?

Did the IMF lend them billions of unpayable loans, and then suggest cutting all human services to zero?

Or was the "help" just non-stop bombing?

Help?


Hi, QatzelOK!

Your post, I think, also make the case for American withdrawal, but from a different perspective.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.
#15184554
It's a sad situation, in the sense that war is hell.

It was always inevitable. And frankly, America, the shit hole country, is the responsible party for all the hell and destruction.

Osama Bin Laden and Jeff Epstein are probably drinking champagne on a yacht somewhere, and laughing their asses off, at how stupid Americans are.
#15184555
You do remember, the US government plant, bin Laden.

They 'killed him' and dumped him in the sea, haha, right.

Then, a bunch of the Seal Team 6 members, who participated in the supposed assassination, were killed in a helicopter crash.

(They probably showed indications that they would talk to the press, and expose the lunatic lies, of the falseness of the situation.)

American soldiers certainly did fight a real war, for a heap of lies; 'America' did genuinely fail, like they've failed in most of their wars, since WW2.

And, they never had a good reason to invade Afghanistan.

Also, the plane crashes did not cause the buildings in New York to collapse, it was thermite charges that caused that.

But, I am not celebrating and e-high-fiving about the war terrors the civilian population in Afghanistan is going through right now.

But, yeah, we know the basic facts.

America is full of shit, and were never going to win the war in Afghanistan, which was a war based on a pack of lies.
#15184557
Now I am semi-trolling the thread and posting nonsense, but I'm alone and getting pretty half-drunk.


I guess that my frustration is not about America losing in Afghanistan, like we always knew they would.

I'm kinda glad they lost, and they had no business there, at all, except for the demented desires of well-placed people.

My regret is the battle scars currently being inflicted, by the victorious side; battle scars like those that have been inflicted by the Americans, to a horrible extent.

And, I do have genuine feelings of affection for the American military dudes, who shed blood, sweat and tears, over the pack of lies that this war was about. Including some of my friends (including on this site). Including my neighbor, who I could probably throw a stone and hit him right now, if he's sitting on his porch.

This video shows some of the heroism of the soldiers (and there are cases like this for soldiers on every side of every war), and also, the hell that the rich fucks in America exposed the young military men, of scaling snowy slopes in Afghanistan.

I am not mad at anyone, or lashing out to anyone, but I guess it is my anti-war-ness that is making me yell.

#15184821
8 provincial capitals fall to Taliban in just 5 days.

Image

Right now as of this post Faizabad, Mazar, Ghazni city, Maimana and Sharana are under siege/surrounded.

That's a wrap. Pack it up boys it's over. One pleasant surprise of all this is the Taliban recruiting and using freed child sex slaves to murder their former rapists working for the afghan government. Hundreds of boys have been recruited and have been killing government police and army commanders who used to run their own rape harems.
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