Let's talk about Republicans rejecting democracy with 67% & 63% of Repuds in new poll agreeing. - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15184103
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin




Politics_Observer << You are against compulsory voting because you know that means the U.S. would become a more freer and democratic society and whites represented by the republican party will have to share power with others and the whites represented by the republican party simply are not interested in sharing power or a having a genuine free and democratic society. That's why you and other republicans oppose compulsory voting. It's about taking and keeping all power to the whites of the republican party while disenfranchising and not sharing power with others. The republicans are not really interested in honest and free elections or the notion of freedom and democracy. <<


My dear Politics_Observer, I asked in another post, allow me to ask again: are you suffering from some white guilt? You are so stuck in KKKland,your epistles read like the Lamentations of a white man in agony. Tortured by ghosts of past Confederates; hounded by their crimes, even though you were not even born, and committed to atone for all ills real and imagined! I get the impression every Republican to you is a Nathan Bedford Forrest in denial; a reincarnated Robert E Lee in modern day suit... boy!

Now, one thing I am not is an exorcist. I cannot exorcise from you the ghosts of dead Confederates :D I dont know whether there is a local Confederates Anonymous for those whites of KKK Georgia who have committed themselves to reject the Confederacy, its legacy, its lure, and all it stood for; all I can do is recommend a local chapter.

The United States is more than just the Confederate South. And the Republican Party is more than just your local KKK chapter. You err when you extrapolate from local Georgia specifics to encompass the totality of the United States.

All this is not to say you are anything but a fine person. From my readings of all your posts I do not sense any mean bone in your body. I have to add that just in case a casual reader is left with the impression that you are anything but a white southerner hell bent on distancing himself from the Confederacy. :)

On my scorecard you score an A as a nice, courteous gentleman. What the white southerner claims to be, but is not.
Last edited by Juin on 05 Aug 2021 21:24, edited 1 time in total.
#15184106
[quote="Patrickov"][/quote]


Juin wrote:
I am against compulsory voting. It would seem to me like implicit in the most fundamental of rights, is the right to make a choice. An Aussie ought to be able to decide for himself whether he wants to vote or not. And is it about compelling an Aussie to show up at a voting booth, or he is compelled to actually check the boxes? I ask that because the ballot here in California is usually a very long list of items: national, statewide, county, Sheriff, measures etc. I only vote on the few that I am informed about.<<


Patrickov << I conditionally agree with compulsory voting. My conditions are:
1. NO pre-filtering of candidates or any means to undermine rights of candidacy (ABSOLUTELY IMPORTANT)
2. Allow EITHER write-in candidates OR blank votes.<<



Wont you still demand same conditions even if there was no compulsory voting?




Juin wrote:
Maximum turnout tends to favour the left, while low turnout tends to favour the right.<<


Patrickov << The opposite of this phenomenon holds in places threatened by far-left dictatorships, e.g. Hong Kong / Taiwan, which are threatened (or in Hong Kong's case, brutally oppressed) by China.<<


Thanks. I did not think of that. I was just posting in a US framework. But I agree, the case of a specific kind of threat can also impact turnout.
#15184108
@Juin

I am not suffering any sort of so called "white guilt." I just look at the facts and draw the logical conclusions. It's called critical thinking. Something you seem to lack the ability to do.
#15184110
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin

I am not suffering any sort of so called "white guilt." I just look at the facts and draw the logical conclusions. Something you seem to lack the ability to do.



I am also looking at the facts. You do not have a monopoly on facts. While you yourself is in my estimation, based on my reading of your posts, free of any mean bone in your body; nevertheless, in another post, you went on and on about how when you speak to kkk members, they this, they that.... I am also forced to ask myself what a fine gentleman like yourself is doing in the company of klan members? The only conclusion I can draw is that your revulsion of the klans is from a close and intimate relationship, or encounter with them.

Where you err is when you extrapolate local southern experiences to the United States at large and the Republican Party as a whole. I dont believe the vast majority of Republicans, white or not, have had the misfortune of close encounters with the Klan
#15184111
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin

I am not suffering any sort of so called "white guilt." I just look at the facts and draw the logical conclusions. Something you seem to lack the ability to do.



I am also looking at the facts. You do not have a monopoly on facts. While you yourself is in my estimation, based on my reading of your posts, free of any mean bone in your body; nevertheless, in another post, you went on and on about how when you speak to kkk members, they this, they that.... I am also forced to ask myself what a fine gentleman like yourself is doing in the company of klan members? The only conclusion I can draw is that your revulsion of the klans is from a close and intimate relationship, or encounter with them.

Where you err is when you extrapolate local southern experiences to the United States at large and the Republican Party as a whole. I dont believe the vast majority of Republicans, white or not, have had the misfortune of close encounters with the Klan
#15184131
@Juin

So you are trying to pretend that racism ONLY exists in the south? I got ocean front property to sell you in Arizona my friend. I have been all over the United States and have lived in BOTH the North and South and have visited California as well. I am a well traveled man. I can assure you, racism is an American thing and not just merely a southern thing. And the republican party attracts mostly racist white people who have no interest in keeping America a free society based on genuine democracy or the rule of law. They are not interested in free and fair elections. Republicans are only interested in one: raw naked power at any cost.

The republican party and their voters demonstrated quite clearly with their actions that they were willing to aid and abet in Trump's attacks on our democracy and directly attack our capital on January 6. They were also willing to help Trump engage in a coup and set up a dictatorship which would be nothing more than a racist fascist dictatorship with Trump as the authoritarian ruler. These are the facts. Now, you may wish to ignore the truth, but that's not my problem. That's your problem. And I never said I had a monopoly on the facts, but I clearly have a much more solid grip on those facts than you do.
#15184141
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin




Political_Observer << Individual rights are just one aspect to life as a human being. There are also rights for the society to live in safety, security,the rule of law and freedom. The rule of law is part of freedom. Society exists. NOT just ONLY individual rights. We have a society too that we have to take into account and not just ONLY individual rights. Individual rights have to be balanced against the needs of society to best ensure a free society. Compulsory voting helps to serve that purpose and serves it quite well in Australia. They don't have problems with politicians like Trump trying to establish a dictatorship like we do here in the U.S. They actually a free society over there and don't have to worry about people like Trump trying to destroy their government and become a dictator. Not saying life is perfect over there, but at least they are not the verge of becoming a right wing racist fascist dictatorship.<<


My dear Politics_Observer,

I am very disturbed when anyone- especially when they purpote to be advocates for democracy- do not hold as sacrosanct, or take lightly the Proposition that certain individual rights are natural and unalienable. These rights are not a gift from the State to man. The State derives its legitimacy and powers from the individual, not vice versa. The founders of the American Republic already deliberated on that. I am not sure what I am to make of you- in the 21st Century- attempting to turn things upside down by making individual fundamental rights a gift of the State. This is the United States of America, not the United Soviet Socialist States of America. Only a Bolshevik can so elevate the State over the individual.

Your statement "the Rule of Law is part of freedom freedom" is at the very least logically problematic; that is if not Logically False. There is really no direct correlation between the two. Communist China, Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, etc all had rule of law; but freedom was absent. Maybe you wanted to say for freedom to be fully enjoyed some rule of law is necessary.

I find it hilarious that you are for compulsory voting but against voter ID requirements. The contradiction eludes you? It is clearly obvious that compelling an individual- I imagine on pain of fines or incarceration- to visit a polling station, even if he clearly does not want to, a more egregious intrusion by the state on an individual than requiring an ID. Or at least I think so. At the very least what we have here is you picking and chosing what tyrannies you want.

And Australia itself does not appear to be immune to the Voter ID requirement debats. Our forum Australian may enlighten us. But a quick google indicated to me that as of 2016 Queensland, Australia has voter id requirements. Only for Queensland, not at the Federal level.

And our forum Australian did clarify compulsory voting. In the strict sense of the word, Australia does not compel voting, it only compels the long suffering Aussie to present himself at the boothe. The long suffering Aussie, once inside the boothe, can dump the damn Federal ballot in the garbage bin. That being the case, and the reality, I am forced to find the compulsion excessive and unnecessary, and an infringement on individual rights.

I will round up by again repeating my consternation at the discovery that you do not hold certain rights as natural and unalienable, a gift from God or nature, and definitely NOT a gift from State to man.
#15184146
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin




Political_Observer << So you are trying to pretend that racism ONLY exists in the south? I got ocean front property to sell you in Arizona my friend.<<


Me? You are mistaken. There is racism everywhere. I am actually of the view that it is hardwired in all humans. It is a defect we can try to manage and control. There is a school of thought that holds that racism is learned, I am not of that view. It is tolerance that I believe is learned.



Potlitical_Observer << I have been all over the United States and have lived in BOTH the North and South and have visited California as well. I am a well traveled man. I can assure you, racism is an American thing and not just merely a southern thing.<<


Then you should know better. You are incorrect when you depict in your posts blacks as a bunch of fragile, brittle damaged goods that need water bearers when they line up to vote. Or that something as easy in the US as obtaining an ID is so far above the abilities of blacks that the requirement has to be dispensed with. It flies in the face of reality. Blacks open bank accounts all the time, purchase vehicles, rent appartments, buy houses... all activities requiring identification.



Political_Observer << And the republican party attracts mostly racist white people who have no interest in keeping America a free society based on genuine democracy or the rule of law. They are not interested in free and fair elections. Republicans are only interested in one: raw naked power at any cost.<<


My good Political_Observer. The United States is a work in progress. It has come a long way. From its beggings when it had to put up with the likes of Georgia and slavery to what it is today. There is still a long way to go. But this here Republic has much to be proud of.

A stable functioning society can roughly split into the middle and upper class, on one hand; and the lower middle class, the under class, the under previledged, those at the periphery. Conservative parties- of which the Republican Party is the case here- represent the interest of the middle and upper class, and the more entrenched and established part of the population. Progressive parties- of which the Democrats are the case in the US- are the fighters for the lower class, the under class, the under previledged, the undocumented, those at the periphery.

That is what makes up a healthy society. I dont get where you get the impression that the US will be the same if the previledged have no representation. Let me tell you this: if you eliminate the Republican Party, leaving only the Democratic Party, the US is reduced to a one party Bolshevik state.

And I got news for you, more and more blacks, hispanics are voting Republican.





Poltical_Observer << The republican party and their voters demonstrated quite clearly with their actions that they were willing to aid and abet in Trump's attacks on our democracy and directly attack our capital on January 6. They were also willing to help Trump engage in a coup and set up a dictatorship which would be nothing more than a racist fascist dictatorship with Trump as the authoritarian ruler. These are the facts. Now, you may wish to ignore the truth, but that's not my problem. That's your problem. And I never said I had a monopoly on the facts, but I clearly have a much more solid grip on those facts than you do.<<


Never let a crisis go to waste; was that not what some Democrat said? I noticed with amusement the attempts by Democrats to make of a January 6th a Reichstag Fire. It was nothing but a tempest in a teapot.
#15184148
@Juin

So you simply deny the reality that society exists and that you and others like you have the right to un-necessarily endanger the lives of others, for example, by refusing to vaccinate simply because it is your "individual right" to not do so? That's your logic and doesn't make sense. People don't have the "individual right" to endanger the lives of others un-necessarily. Yet, this mentality is very common. It's the same mentality that has led to global warming that has endangered the lives of many people around the globe. People have the "individual right" to cut down trees and warm the globe and cause sea levels to rise and endanger the lives of people who are poorer than them, those that they look down upon and exploit. People have the "individual right" to not vaccinate when they can without danger to themselves and endanger the lives of others.

It sort of reminds me of how white slave owners despised African slaves. So long as the exploitation of black slaves went smoothly they were merely despised by those slave owners. So long as they had unfettered access to the lives and labor of African Americans, everything, from their perspective, was good. They had the "individual right" to own and exploit African Americans. But violate that sense of entitlement (or 'individual right') to exploit and those slave owners donned white robes after losing the American Civil War given they no longer had unfettered access to the lives and labor of African Americans.

The same is true for cutting down trees and making money off trees and causing global warming. So long as the mentality of superiority works to maintain entitlement or "individual rights" hatred and physical force remain underground. But when the mentality and rhetoric beings to fail, force and hatred comes out in a explosion such as voting for Donald Trump. Or storming the capital on January 6th. They had a sense of entitlement and when that entitlement was violated they let their hatred show and explode with at first the election of Donald Trump and when Trump lost the election with the January 6th terrorist attack. The folks who attacked the capital on January 6th were terrorists much like the KKK were and are terrorists.
#15184149
Rancid wrote:I suspect the demise of American democracy, and America itself will be traced right to Trumpism as the seed that expedited everything.

I see the US being a lot more like Russia or Brazil in the future.


To the rest of the world, the demise of American Democracy began to happen the day Whitehouse Tour Guides began having to say "That's where he took his blowjob from the Jewish chick and splurged on her dress, then he didn't get fired, nor did he quit like Nixon at least did".
#15184150
@Juin

They had the "individual right" to attack a free society on January 6 given that their sense of entitlement to power was violated. They had the "individual right" to own other people and have unfettered access to their labor before the outbreak of the American Civil War. They had an "individual right" to not be vaccinated even though it would not hurt them to do so and endanger the lives of others. I think the reason that many republicans don't vaccinate is because many of them are very hateful people and hide behind the notion of "individual rights." It's being hateful and spiteful to the society who didn't vote them into power when they felt they had a birthright to power. They felt entitled to power and they felt their sense of entitlement was being violated.
#15184152
Juin wrote:Wont you still demand same conditions even if there was no compulsory voting?


If these conditions are not met and no compulsory voting at least I can choose not to show up at all as protest.

On a side note, North Korea has a "no" vote box. If not for the one-way-trip-to-the-gulag shit I think it's a great idea. And indeed if Hong Kong ever does that I might as well pick up the gulag option, after all I have no spouse or junior family members to worry about.
#15184157
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin





Political_Observer << So you simply deny the reality that society exists and that you and others like you have the right to un-necessarily endanger the lives of others, for example, by refusing to vaccinate simply because it is your "individual right" to not do so? That's your logic and doesn't make sense. People don't have the "individual right" to endanger the lives of others un-necessarily.<<


I have no problem with vaccines. I have been jabbed. What are you talking about? It is needles I have a problem with. Not the content of the syringe.

And I have to remind you that blacks- the Democratic Party's most loyal. and oft taken for granted constituency- is not hot on vaccines either. You ignore that and only latch unto Republicans.

So what will you like to do to people who will not vaccinate? Send them to concentration camps?




Political_Observer << It sort of reminds me of how white slave owners despised African slaves. So long as the exploitation of black slaves went smoothly they were merely despised by those slave owners. So long as they had unfettered access to the lives and labor of African Americans, everything, from their perspective, was good. They had the "individual right" to own and exploit African Americans. But violate that sense of entitlement (or 'individual right') to exploit and those slave owners donned white robes after losing the American Civil War given they no longer had unfettered access to the lives and labor of African Americans.<<


This is the 21st Century. What has the above go to do with the Republican Party. Or the vast majority of white people for that matter? From a Marxist point of view I fail to see what benefit accrued to the poor Johnny Reb. If anything the poor white man in the south got a raw deal from slavery; given that his wages could not rise when massa could rely on free labour. The real villains were Massas Tom Jeff'son and George Washington, both industrial scale slavers, with huge plantations. Why are you bringing this up to me, it was your Democratic Party that was up to its gills in slavery.




Political_Observer << But when the mentality and rhetoric beings to fail, force and hatred comes out in a explosion such as voting for Donald Trump. Or storming the capital on January 6th. They had a sense of entitlement and when that entitlement was violated they let their hatred show and explode with at first the election of Donald Trump and when Trump lost the election with the January 6th terrorist attack. The folks who attacked the capital on January 6th were terrorists much like the KKK were and are terrorists.<<


You may not realise it, but with passage of time more and more Americans are coming to realise that Democrats want to make a Reichstag Fire out of January 6th
#15184162
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin




Political_Observer << They had the "individual right" to attack a free society on January 6 given that their sense of entitlement to power was violated.<<


hmmm where did I hear that powerful refrain,, "No Justice, No Peace"? You Democrats have been torching up city after city, and now you wanna make a Reichstag Fire out of simple folks marching to the Capitol?




Political_Observer << They had the "individual right" to own other people and have unfettered access to their labor before the outbreak of the American Civil War.<<


Go take that up with Massa Tom Jeff'son and George Washington.




Poltics_Observer << They had an "individual right" to not be vaccinated even though it would not hurt them to do so and endanger the lives of others. I think the reason that many republicans don't vaccinate is because many of them are very hateful people and hide behind the notion of "individual rights." It's being hateful and spiteful to the society who didn't vote them into power when they felt they had a birthright to power. They felt entitled to power and they felt their sense of entitlement was being violated.<<


Blacks also are reluctant to get vaccinated. When blacks object to getting vaccinated is it because they are being hateful and spiteful?
#15184165
Juin wrote:You may not realise it, but with passage of time more and more Americans are coming to realise that Democrats want to make a Reichstag Fire out of January 6th
That's what is was. You don't have to be a Democrat to see that.

That it failed is the only saving grace. It still showed how fragile American Democracy is, right now, however.
#15184173
Godstud wrote:That's what is was. You don't have to be a Democrat to see that.

That it failed is the only saving grace. It still showed how fragile American Democracy is, right now, however.



I sat through the whole thing at work. At no point I got the impression the US Government was anywhere close to being overthrown. I did not see the mob that day as anymore threatening than the various mobs- of the left, and anti Trump- that had also been massing in Washington DC.

Even if all the Senators and Congressmen had abandoned the Capitol the US Government would not have even been an inch of getting overthrown. The mob had as much chances as a fly on the back of an elephant presuming to take down the elephant.
#15184182
Politics_Observer wrote:@Juin

So you are trying to pretend that racism ONLY exists in the south? I got ocean front property to sell you in Arizona my friend. I have been all over the United States and have lived in BOTH the North and South and have visited California as well. I am a well traveled man. I can assure you, racism is an American thing and not just merely a southern thing. And the republican party attracts mostly racist white people who have no interest in keeping America a free society based on genuine democracy or the rule of law. They are not interested in free and fair elections. Republicans are only interested in one: raw naked power at any cost.

The republican party and their voters demonstrated quite clearly with their actions that they were willing to aid and abet in Trump's attacks on our democracy and directly attack our capital on January 6. They were also willing to help Trump engage in a coup and set up a dictatorship which would be nothing more than a racist fascist dictatorship with Trump as the authoritarian ruler. These are the facts. Now, you may wish to ignore the truth, but that's not my problem. That's your problem. And I never said I had a monopoly on the facts, but I clearly have a much more solid grip on those facts than you do.


P_O, sir, I agree with the above, as long as I can stipulate that we are talking about Repuds who are still in the party today. If they left the party yesterday or before yesterday, then they are not Repuds. Obviously, people who are not today Repuds are not included in your generalization. And, there are some Repuds public officials who can't leave the party officially, but are not on board with the worst of the above generalization.
#15184210
@Steve_American

Steve_American wrote:P_O, sir, I agree with the above, as long as I can stipulate that we are talking about Repuds who are still in the party today. If they left the party yesterday or before yesterday, then they are not Repuds. Obviously, people who are not today Repuds are not included in your generalization. And, there are some Repuds public officials who can't leave the party officially, but are not on board with the worst of the above generalization.


I agree. Those that left the party don't fit this generalization and some of the republicans who remain don't fit this either. But many that remain do. It's no mistake that many cheered with glee at such offensive rhetoric and actions that came from Trump. It's something that can't be just swept under the rug either and be given a free pass.

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