Cultural Revolution 2.0 - Page 8 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15190547
Rugoz wrote:Europe was ahead of the US when it comes to modern government, if you mean by that an extensive effective bureaucracy. The US copied that from European powers in the late 19th century.

The democracy part was obviously heavily influenced by the UK.


Somewhere in the mid to late 19th century they speeded ahead with such revolutionary ideas such as free trade, anti-imperialism and so on which weren't really just theoretical concepts but also were being implemented more and more. By 1918 America also proposed the more advanced versions of peace maintanence in the face of league of nations and after 1945 it was changed to the United Nations.

It wasn't perfect but post WW2 order didn't appear out of nowhere, the ideas that managed to create at least the Western part of the order were laid down and practiced in America since mid/late 19th century.
#15190548
JohnRawls wrote:Somewhere in the mid to late 19th century they speeded ahead with such revolutionary ideas such as free trade, anti-imperialism and so on which weren't really just theoretical concepts but also were being implemented more and more. By 1918 America also proposed the more advanced versions of peace maintanence in the face of league of nations and after 1945 it was changed to the United Nations.

It wasn't perfect but post WW2 order didn't appear out of nowhere, the ideas that managed to create at least the Western part of the order were laid down and practiced in America since mid/late 19th century.

The "free trade" part was largely the work of the British Empire - the USA enforced strict tariffs throughout the 19th century. It was really the USA's anti-imperialism which proved to have a decisive effect on world history - it was largely because of Woodrow Wilson's liberalism and anti-imperialism that the European order collapsed after 1918, and it was the USA's refusal to support European imperialism in the 1950s which precipitated the collapse of the British, French and other empires after 1945. And this was despite the USA's own flirting with imperialism in the 1890s and 1900s, carving out its own little 'pocket empire' in the Caribbean and Central America. But self-awareness has never been the USA's strong suit. Lol.
#15190552
Potemkin wrote:The "free trade" part was largely the work of the British Empire - the USA enforced strict tariffs throughout the 19th century. It was really the USA's anti-imperialism which proved to have a decisive effect on world history - it was largely because of Woodrow Wilson's liberalism and anti-imperialism that the European order collapsed after 1918, and it was the USA's refusal to support European imperialism in the 1950s which precipitated the collapse of the British, French and other empires after 1945. And this was despite the USA's own flirting with imperialism in the 1890s and 1900s, carving out its own little 'pocket empire' in the Caribbean and Central America. But self-awareness has never been the USA's strong suit. Lol.


Kinda they still run the imperialism business with a lot of pushback back and forward in the late 19th and early 20th but mostly gave up on it after the world war 2 fast to return to it because the Soviets were taking over. It is complicated i guess.

As for "free trade", I would say UK pushed for "free trade" within its empire instead of world wide free trade that US pushed for especially after WW1 and WW2.
#15190556
JohnRawls wrote:Kinda they still run the imperialism business with a lot of pushback back and forward in the late 19th and early 20th but mostly gave up on it after the world war 2 fast to return to it because the Soviets were taking over. It is complicated i guess.

As for "free trade", I would say UK pushed for "free trade" within its empire instead of world wide free trade that US pushed for especially after WW1 and WW2.

I repeat: the USA's track record on free trade is not a good one, despite all their rhetoric during the Cold War. I need mention only the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act, for one thing. Throughout its history, the USA never saw a tariff it didn't like. Lol.
#15190559
annatar1914 wrote:
@Patrickov ;

Russia isn't ''totalitarian''



They are not far from it, and they're talking about conquering Ukraine.

Personally, I think it's time for an American presence there. It's doesn't need to be a large force, just enough to show we're committed.
By late
#15190561
Potemkin wrote:
I repeat: the USA's track record on free trade is not a good one, despite all their rhetoric during the Cold War. I need mention only the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act, for one thing. Throughout its history, the USA never saw a tariff it didn't like.



If you're going back that far (1930) tariffs were common. In addition, we were developing, capitalist economies usually protect their infant industries until they can stand on their own.

If you look postwar, then we went above and beyond free trade. Bretton Woods caused the greatest surge in international trade the world has even seen. We made that happen..

Granted, Trump is a dick, but over the last 40 years our trade policies were quite liberal, resulting in a lot of our business moving offshore.

Try harder.
#15190576
late wrote:If you're going back that far (1930) tariffs were common. In addition, we were developing, capitalist economies usually protect their infant industries until they can stand on their own.

The British ruling class were always keen on free trade throughout the 19th century, even when they probably shouldn't have been (e.g., the Irish Famine). The British Empire spread free trade across the globe, largely supplanting the mercantilism which most nations had pursued throughout their history.

If you look postwar, then we went above and beyond free trade. Bretton Woods caused the greatest surge in international trade the world has even seen. We made that happen..

Granted, Trump is a dick, but over the last 40 years our trade policies were quite liberal, resulting in a lot of our business moving offshore.

Try harder.

Until the post-1945 era, the USA had a love affair with tariffs. Trump's dickishness didn't come out of nowhere, you know. :)
By late
#15190588
Potemkin wrote:
The British ruling class were always keen on free trade throughout the 19th century, even when they probably shouldn't have been (e.g., the Irish Famine). The British Empire spread free trade across the globe, largely supplanting the mercantilism which most nations had pursued throughout their history.


Until the post-1945 era, the USA had a love affair with tariffs. Trump's dickishness didn't come out of nowhere, you know.



Sigh.

"As the story is usually told, British free trade came in the 1840s after a bitter political struggle to repeal the Corn Laws—a name given to a series of agricultural tariffs and quotas designed to keep farm prices high. This was quickly followed by rapid and dramatic reductions in duties on hundreds of imports. By the 1850s, all but a handful of commodities were admitted to Britain free of all duties. Sounds good, until you look closely at what products remained subject to high duties: those handful of items were the most contentious and some of the most highly taxed items that historically had been at the core of the mercantile debate in British history. In previous centuries they formed a large and significant fraction of British trade.

Free trade should mean just that: free trade, with all goods admitted without duties, quotas, or restrictions. That was not British policy. They removed most tariffs but mostly on items in which they had a comparative advantage. In other words, they mostly removed tariffs on items for which Britain had little to fear in terms of competition or which were of trivial importance in overall trade."
https://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2003/Nyefreetrade.html

By your own statement, we've been doing ok for about 80 years. That ain't chump change...
#15190645
late wrote:They are not far from it, and they're talking about conquering Ukraine.

Personally, I think it's time for an American presence there. It's doesn't need to be a large force, just enough to show we're committed.


@late ;

Committed to lunacy. You like so many others pervert the meanings of words and cheapen the sacrifices of millions who actually died fighting ''Totalitarianism'' in it's actual form. Nobody is talking about conquering Ukraine. Ukraine was engaged in ethnic cleansing, and still is, so Crimea returned to Russia and the Donbass won it's independence (which it still fights for) to prevent your Ukrainian Neo-Nazi pals from killing the inhabitants. Your comments are particularly grotesque and offensive to me as I actually know people from the region who are now refugees, driven out of their land by your blood brothers in groups like the Azov Battalion...
By late
#15190706
annatar1914 wrote:
@late ;

Committed to lunacy. You like so many others pervert the meanings of words and cheapen the sacrifices of millions who actually died fighting ''Totalitarianism'' in it's actual form. Nobody is talking about conquering Ukraine. Ukraine was engaged in ethnic cleansing, and still is, so Crimea returned to Russia and the Donbass won it's independence (which it still fights for) to prevent your Ukrainian Neo-Nazi pals from killing the inhabitants. Your comments are particularly grotesque and offensive to me as I actually know people from the region who are now refugees, driven out of their land by your blood brothers in groups like the Azov Battalion...



That's what Aussies call a load of dingoes kidneys..

Most guys here don't know what Russia does, and how it does it. You are counting on people not understanding..

How they undermine a country town by town by killing leaders, bribing those that can be intimidated, and creating an active opposition.

Crimea didn't "return" to Russia, it was conquered. The continuing violence motivated reprisals.

But your propaganda is well done, which always makes me wonder.

Btw, since you brought up lunacy, this won't go unanswered forever. Look at history, this is going to get ugly on a very large scale... Now that's lunacy.
#15190778
late wrote:That's what Aussies call a load of dingoes kidneys..

Most guys here don't know what Russia does, and how it does it. You are counting on people not understanding..

How they undermine a country town by town by killing leaders, bribing those that can be intimidated, and creating an active opposition.

Crimea didn't "return" to Russia, it was conquered. The continuing violence motivated reprisals.

But your propaganda is well done, which always makes me wonder.

Btw, since you brought up lunacy, this won't go unanswered forever. Look at history, this is going to get ugly on a very large scale... Now that's lunacy.


@late ;

Boomer paranoia, it's one hell of a drug. Maybe it's replaced the cocaine and other drugs with that generation. But more likely, it probably contributed to the paranoia if anything. Nothing you said was even remotely true or factual.
#15190850
annatar1914 wrote:@late ;

Boomer paranoia, it's one hell of a drug. Maybe it's replaced the cocaine and other drugs with that generation. But more likely, it probably contributed to the paranoia if anything. Nothing you said was even remotely true or factual.

His generation was brought up to regard Russia as America's Enemy #1; as America's dark shadow, the "Evil Empire" against which America defined itself. Like most Americans of his generation, he doesn't seem to be able to let go of that Cold War brainwashing.
#15190855
annatar1914 wrote:[usermention=41202]

@late[/usermention] ;

Boomer paranoia, it's one hell of a drug. Maybe it's replaced the cocaine and other drugs with that generation. But more likely, it probably contributed to the paranoia if anything. Nothing you said was even remotely true or factual.



That's a logical fallacy called Ad Hominem, attacking the person because you can't attack the argument.

Ya got bupkus, sweetie. If you follow this sort of thing, it's old news...
#15190866
Potemkin wrote:
His generation was brought up to regard Russia as America's Enemy #1; as America's dark shadow, the "Evil Empire" against which America defined itself. Like most Americans of his generation, he doesn't seem to be able to let go of that Cold War brainwashing.



Again, Ad Hominem.

That's the way Putin rolls...
#15190867
Potemkin wrote:His generation was brought up to regard Russia as America's Enemy #1; as America's dark shadow, the "Evil Empire" against which America defined itself. Like most Americans of his generation, he doesn't seem to be able to let go of that Cold War brainwashing.


From what I observe Russia and / or China apologist narratives often employ this accusation. However, the track record of both China and Russia towards political, social and individual freedom means that the so-called "Cold War brainwashing" is actually very well founded, and the socialist / anti-American people are the ones who need to answer questions, not us.
#15190921
Potemkin wrote:His generation was brought up to regard Russia as America's Enemy #1; as America's dark shadow, the "Evil Empire" against which America defined itself. Like most Americans of his generation, he doesn't seem to be able to let go of that Cold War brainwashing.


@Potemkin ;

That's exactly what it is, a kind of reflexive and reactionary spasm. I have dealt with such people all my adult life, family and friends even. It's sad how even bright people, even nice people, can be so abysmally stupid and out of touch with the real situation, with regards to this.
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