Final nail in the coffin of Russian democracy. - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15190852
JohnRawls wrote:We are talking about people who are not in charge anymore. The eastern and southern parts of Ukraine are under Ukranian central governments control. So I am not sure what are you about here? Right now I was talking about people who might be either culturally or historically closer to Russian culture or the people in western Ukraine that might be historically closer to more right wing views lets say. This is a question of reconciling both sides so they can live peacefully, stabily and in a democratic society.


I'd say it's not possible. Just deport the pro-Russians to Russia. It's been done a lot of times during the 20th Century and it works pretty well.

(Before anyone suspects me of hypocrisy, I support China deporting the likes of me to Great Britain or any other Five Eye countries, and all patriotic overseas Chinese back to China. Just let me keep whatever possession I have)
#15190856
Patrickov wrote:I'd say it's not possible. Just deport the pro-Russians to Russia. It's been done a lot of times during the 20th Century and it works pretty well.

(Before anyone suspects me of hypocrisy, I support China deporting the likes of me to Great Britain or any other Five Eye countries, and all patriotic overseas Chinese back to China. Just let me keep whatever possession I have)


I am not sure you understand how deportation work then. Plus it falls under cultural genocide so absolutely no. (Technically there is also some kind of territorial extinction or something like that but I don't remember)
#15190864
JohnRawls wrote:I am not sure you understand how deportation work then.

Plus it falls under cultural genocide so absolutely no. (Technically there is also some kind of territorial extinction or something like that but I don't remember)


There are two kinds of deportations.

What I said is the ones like between Greece and Turkey in 1922 and between everyone else and Germany in 1946.

Obviously not the kind Germans did between 1941 and 1944. Although if that happens to me I can always find God.
#15191122
annatar1914 wrote:@litwin ;

Sad. You're sad because your OUN....

ivan, U. is an independent state and you can do nothing about it, OUN won you horde lost, just swallow and live with it

#15191125
JohnRawls wrote:We are talking about people who are not in charge anymore. The eastern and southern parts of Ukraine are under Ukranian central governments control. So I am not sure what are you about here? Right now I was talking about people who might be either culturally or historically closer to Russian culture or the people in western Ukraine that might be historically closer to more right wing views lets say. This is a question of reconciling both sides so they can live peacefully, stabily and in a democratic society.

a bunch of TV.ru BS propaganda , the majority of ATO fighters from South - Eastern Ukraine. the fact is that you LOST war against Ukraine , we WON )))

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Terr ... e_(Ukraine)
#15191130
litwin wrote:a bunch of TV.ru BS propaganda , the majority of ATO fighters from South - Eastern Ukraine. the fact is that you LOST war against Ukraine , we WON )))

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Terr ... e_(Ukraine)


Not sure why are you melanholic so much. To call ATO a win is a stretch, Crimea and Donbass are still in Putins hands last time i checked :hmm:
#15191133
litwin wrote:ivan, U. is an independent state and you can do nothing about it, OUN won you horde lost, just swallow and live with it



@litwin ;

I figure that you Banderists did plenty of ''swallowing'' for your Nazi masters during the Great Patriotic War, and now you're ready to do it again as you always are, being self-hating Slavs who are brainwashed by the Uniate and Romano-Germanic propaganda. Next thing we know on this thread, you'll probably say that you Galicians are descendants from the Germanic Goths and not Slavs at all. Again, you once-Russian people are sad, more a threat to defenseless civilians and maybe Jews and Gypsies than proud and armed Russians who remember who we are.
#15191134
JohnRawls wrote:Not sure why are you melanholic so much. To call ATO a win is a stretch, Crimea and Donbass are still in Putins hands last time i checked :hmm:

which is great ) tell your bosses to keep them as long as they can :lol:

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#15191135
annatar1914 wrote:@litwin ;

I figure that you Banderists---

do you agree that U. won your mongol horde lost ? yes or no ? and U. is an independent state ?

Image

as I said, ivan , just swallow it ))
#15191136
litwin wrote:which is great ) tell your bosses to keep them as long as they can :lol:

Image


Why is Putin my boss? This topic was about how Russia democracy is being destroyed by Putin until you hijacked it sort of. :eh:
#15191139
litwin wrote:do you agree that U. won your mongol horde lost ? yes or no ? and U. is an independent state ?

Image

as I said, ivan , just swallow it ))


@litwin ;

The Ukraine lost it's independence to the West, to it's Comrador class of collaborating Oligarchs, and Fascist scum, after your Maidan. You don't think that people forgot you Banderists burning all those people alive in Odessa, did you? And Crimean Russians and Donbass Russians escaped your Neo-Nazi clutches, a bone for you to choke on. So no, civilization won over Fascist barbarism, and the good people of the Ukraine have lost. But they will tire of you very quickly as you ruin everything there.
#15191140
annatar1914 wrote:@litwin ;

The Ukraine lost it's independence to the West, to it's Comrador class of collaborating Oligarchs, and Fascist scum, after your Maidan. You don't think that people forgot you Banderists burning all those people alive in Odessa, did you? And Crimean Russians and Donbass Russians escaped your Neo-Nazi clutches, a bone for you to choke on. So no, civilization won over Fascist barbarism, and the good people of the Ukraine have lost. But they will tire of you very quickly as you ruin everything there.


Honestly speaking the fascists are a small minority that runs rampant kinda like most radical groups in the US. The problem is that they have some sway on the decision making even if it is not large. In US radicals don't have almost any access to decision making.

Maidan was far more than just a protest against Russia as many try to pretend. In general it was an anti-corruption and anti-direction of the country protest. So the country did change direction for the EU which is what the Ukranian people actually want. The whole conflict was started by Russia to ruin Ukraine which it did to a large degree. Long term that is hardly relevant though if Ukraine succeeds in beating corruption. They have made large progress but I am not sure if it is enough to beat the corrupt Oligarchs. This is the main question we should be asking.
#15191141
@JohnRawls ;

Honestly speaking the fascists are a small minority that runs rampant kinda like most radical groups in the US.


Honestly speaking, radical groups in the US don't control their version of Homeland Security and the US Armed Forces, have a slight majority in the US Congress, and treat the President like a little bitch anytime they want something from him, like when staging provocations against their neighbors.

The problem is that they have some sway on the decision making even if it is not large. In US radicals don't have almost any access to decision making.


These groups in the Ukraine are Nazis, flat out Nazis, who get the Ukrainian government to honor the memory of men who sided with Hitler and who murdered many people in cold blood. There's no comparison for anyone who isn't a cynical EU partisan playing geopolitics or a moral relativist.
Maidan was far more than just a protest against Russia as many try to pretend. In general it was an anti-corruption and anti-direction of the country protest.


It didn't originate as a protest against Russia at all, but was hijacked by outside agents and the aforementioned groups in Ukraine. Nobody likes the Oligarchs, except maybe their Fascist mercenaries.

So the country did change direction for the EU which is what the Ukranian people actually want.


You mean, what the elites who control the EU want.

The whole conflict was started by Russia to ruin Ukraine which it did to a large degree.


It was started by the US under Obama and his poodles in the EU.


Long term that is hardly relevant though if Ukraine succeeds in beating corruption. They have made large progress


:lol: :roll:


but I am not sure if it is enough to beat the corrupt Oligarchs. This is the main question we should be asking.


If the EU elites didn't have this corrupt class of Comprador retainers in the Ukraine to oversee this poor land of cheap labor and geopolitical forward base against Russia, they would have to invent them.
#15191145
annatar1914 wrote:@JohnRawls ;



Honestly speaking, radical groups in the US don't control their version of Homeland Security and the US Armed Forces, have a slight majority in the US Congress, and treat the President like a little bitch anytime they want something from him, like when staging provocations against their neighbors.



These groups in the Ukraine are Nazis, flat out Nazis, who get the Ukrainian government to honor the memory of men who sided with Hitler and who murdered many people in cold blood. There's no comparison for anyone who isn't a cynical EU partisan playing geopolitics or a moral relativist.


It didn't originate as a protest against Russia at all, but was hijacked by outside agents and the aforementioned groups in Ukraine. Nobody likes the Oligarchs, except maybe their Fascist mercenaries.



You mean, what the elites who control the EU want.



It was started by the US under Obama and his poodles in the EU.




:lol: :roll:




If the EU elites didn't have this corrupt class of Comprador retainers in the Ukraine to oversee this poor land of cheap labor and geopolitical forward base against Russia, they would have to invent them.


You are grossly misinformed about the Oligarchs. There are 2 groups of them in Ukraine. Pro Eu and Pro Russia so bundling them all down to be pro EU is a lie. Pro EU Oligarch are actually in the minority even after the Maidan. So your point about EU elites and US elites somehow hijacking the Maidan through Ukrainian oligarchs is just false.
#15191148
JohnRawls wrote:You are grossly misinformed about the Oligarchs. There are 2 groups of them in Ukraine. Pro Eu and Pro Russia so bundling them all down to be pro EU is a lie. Pro EU Oligarch are actually in the minority even after the Maidan. So your point about EU elites and US elites somehow hijacking the Maidan through Ukrainian oligarchs is just false.


@JohnRawls ;

Hardly. I understand that you want to obfuscate the role of the EU elites in helping abominations like the Fascist groups that bully over the Ukraine now, but the Oligarchs are all for themselves. They turned to the deal that was good for them, not for the common people. And the facts on the ground were that the Fascists hijacked the Maidan, while the wealthy clans made their decision and the President and his family fled for his life. This was all engineered from abroad; CIA, BND, others... People like Litwin don't have the brains or resources to hijack a protest and turn it into a Coup.
#15191149
annatar1914 wrote:@JohnRawls ;

Hardly. I understand that you want to obfuscate the role of the EU elites in helping abominations like the Fascist groups that bully over the Ukraine now, but the Oligarchs are all for themselves. They turned to the deal that was good for them, not for the common people. And the facts on the ground were that the Fascists hijacked the Maidan, while the wealthy clans made their decision and the President and his family fled for his life. This was all engineered from abroad; CIA, BND, others... People like Litwin don't have the brains or resources to hijack a protest and turn it into a Coup.


This is a lie because you are claiming that Fascists came to power which they didn't. There is a significant extremist right wing element in the west of Ukraine but at no point were they in full control. As for the EU elites hijacking the Maidan this is not true at all. How could we hijack something that was anti-corruption and pro-eu as a symbol of that anti-corruption from the start? This is stupid.
#15191152
@JohnRawls ;

This is a lie because you are claiming that Fascists came to power which they didn't.


They can do or say whatever they want, to whoever they want, unhindered, while holding important posts in the new regime. And Fascist propaganda re-writes the textbooks of the children, while streets and the like are named after Fascist murderers of old, parades in their honor held, etc... But then, it's not all that dis-similar to your native Estonia in that respect.

There is a significant extremist right wing element in the west of Ukraine but at no point were they in full control.


They're all over, shooting at civilians in the Donbass and the like. As I said, they do whatever the hell they want in your ''anti-corrupt'' Ukraine.


As for the EU elites hijacking the Maidan this is not true at all. How could we hijack something that was anti-corruption and pro-eu as a symbol of that anti-corruption from the start? This is stupid.


No, what's stupid is your attempt to try to imply ''Hijack'' means something else other than what it does; to take something over from what it was, and use it for your own purposes.
#15191155
annatar1914 wrote:@JohnRawls ;



They can do or say whatever they want, to whoever they want, unhindered, while holding important posts in the new regime. And Fascist propaganda re-writes the textbooks of the children, while streets and the like are named after Fascist murderers of old, parades in their honor held, etc... But then, it's not all that dis-similar to your native Estonia in that respect.



They're all over, shooting at civilians in the Donbass and the like. As I said, they do whatever the hell they want in your ''anti-corrupt'' Ukraine.



No, what's stupid is your attempt to try to imply ''Hijack'' means something else other than what it does; to take something over from what it was, and use it for your own purposes.


I don't know what reality you live in but my opinion on the subject is:
1) There are far right groups in the country especially Azov for example.
2) They do not hold much power but have some sway on the decision making.
3) There are no outright nazis in the main offices.
4) The far right battalions get away with a lot of things that they shouldn't but it is not exactly that they are roaming the streets and killings people/
5) Majority of those far right battalions have been bought out by X Oligarch by now to be a sort of protection racket.
6) They are causing economic problems due to that.
7) They are not getting any real numbers in any election as I understand.

Most of what you said is a sort of a boogie man that Russia is spouting. It doesn't mean that there are no problems in that regard, just not in the way and amount that you are describing.

As for the jab about Estonia, again this is Russian propaganda.
#15191172
JohnRawls wrote:I don't know what reality you live in but my opinion on the subject is:
1) There are far right groups in the country especially Azov for example.
2) They do not hold much power but have some sway on the decision making.
3) There are no outright nazis in the main offices.
4) The far right battalions get away with a lot of things that they shouldn't but it is not exactly that they are roaming the streets and killings people/
5) Majority of those far right battalions have been bought out by X Oligarch by now to be a sort of protection racket.
6) They are causing economic problems due to that.
7) They are not getting any real numbers in any election as I understand.

Most of what you said is a sort of a boogie man that Russia is spouting. It doesn't mean that there are no problems in that regard, just not in the way and amount that you are describing.

As for the jab about Estonia, again this is Russian propaganda.


@JohnRawls ;

OMG, almost none of that was true, and what was true about it was written in a way that made them half-truths. I think we're done here, the only way you're going to see reality is when it hits you in the face. And it will.
#15191202
JohnRawls wrote:As for the jab about Estonia, again this is Russian propaganda.


Russia is invading its neighbors with the pretense of protecting its own ethnicity there. It's acting like fucking Nazi Germany in that regard, so as a distraction it comes up with this bullshit whataboutism about its neighbors being fascists, when all they want is to protect their countries from "fascist" Russian aggression.

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