Are you critical or negative about the United States of America? - Page 7 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Polls on politics, news, current affairs and history.

Are you negative or critical of the United States of America?

Yes, I am negative or critical of the United States of America
22
61%
No, I am not negative or critical of the United States of America
5
14%
I am neither negative nor positive about the United States of America
9
25%
#15191594
watOn wrote:Yup, Canada has had residential schools instead. And as I mentioned the US is probably closing Guantanamo now that it's out of both Afghanistan and Iraq.
Residential schools are not a current problem, and indeed lie quite a ways in the past. Canada is facing the problem, and dealing with it. USA is not.

Nice try for a Whataboutism, though. I guess when you have no argument you fall back on logical fallacies or just diversions.

watOn wrote:Surely one would acknowledge when countries are continually trying to improve.
Pretending that Guantanamo Bay is going to "improve" is delusional. How many presidencies have said they'd close it down?

Pretending that US foreign policy is going to change radically, is another delusion.


Stick to the topic. Canada and Cuba are the topic.
#15191595
Godstud wrote:Residential schools are not a current problem, and indeed lie quite a ways in the past. Canada is facing the problem, and dealing with it. USA is not.


The USA is in fact dealing with the Guantanamo problem. There are far less prisoners than there were at the height of the War on Terror, and by leaving Iraq and Afghanistan it's evident it will keep winding down.

Godstud wrote:Nice try for a Whataboutism, though. I guess when you have no argument you fall back on logical fallacies or just diversions.


Not at all, it's simply an illustration of the perils of the Nirvana fallacy.

Godstud wrote: Pretending that Guantanamo Bay is going to "improve" is delusional. How many presidencies have said they'd close it down?

Pretending that US foreign policy is going to change radically, is another delusion.


Stick to the topic. Canada and Cuba are the topic.


That "radical change in US foreign policy" has already happened given the US already left Afghanistan and Iraq. And as I said the Guantanamo issue has been improving for quite a while now.
#15191596
The only one pushing fallacies is you and your "whataboutisms". The topic is USA, not Canada, Cuba, or anywhere else. If you can't argue a point with any honesty. You're just another American whose country can do no wrong.

watOn wrote:That "radical change in US foreign policy" has already happened given the US already left Afghanistan and Iraq. And as I said the Guantanamo issue has been improving for quite a while now.
How? Ever presidency in the last 15 years has vowed to get rid of it, yet it remains.
#15191597
Let's smoke a bowl in the piece pipe.

I guess, everywhere sucks, but you learn to make do.

I should escue this place, but I guess maybe I'm stuck here.

Fuck politics, honestly.

I'm loading a bowl, I just took a good hit on the weed that was in the chamber, and I'm going to smoke a good bowl to @Godstud and @Potemkin and @wat0n.

And fuck all this political bullshit. Shit ain't never going to change and there ain't much we can do about it.

The powerful do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must. (Thucydides.)

Fucking true, though.

This is a good place to have friends and stuff, but I don't think I can go on raging over politics, which are way out of my control. Just can't do it anymore.

Imma pack a big fat bowl though, and dedicate it to @QatzelOk .
#15191598
Godstud wrote:The only one pushing fallacies is you and your "whataboutisms". The topic is USA, not Canada, Cuba, or anywhere else. If you can't argue a point with any honesty. You're just another American whose country can do no wrong.


Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib are examples of the US gone wrong, actually. That doesn't mean the issue of Guantanamo is not improving and that prisoners have not been released ever since. That's far, far better than what's happened in Cuba itself, where this year's protests led to a hardening of the repression and hundreds of new prisoners, not less of them.

I also highly doubt Canada or any other Western country would have acted differently had something like 9/11 happened in Toronto and Ottawa. I bet the Canadian government would have requested NATO assistance as well, and would have kept its own camps for whatever enemies it caught, or would have just performed a targeted killing, simply because Canadians would have demanded a harsh response against attacks killing thousands in some of its major cities.

Godstud wrote: How? Ever presidency in the last 15 years has vowed to get rid of it, yet it remains.


Every presidency in the last 15 years was also fighting in Afghanistan. Leaving Afghanistan and Iraq is a game changer in that regard, I'd be surprised if Biden didn't close Guantanamo within this administration, once it finds some other countries willing to take the prisoners, simply because the US doesn't seem to have much to gain out of that as long as they don't resume their prior activities. Maybe Canada or Thailand will?

@Crantag enjoy your trip, I'm more of a drinking guy :)
#15191599
wat0n wrote:enjoy your trip, I'm more of a drinking guy :)

I drink to excess every day.

I should tamper it down.

I'm smoking some good quality indica.

Welcome to the hotel pofo, is what I think of this fucking place.

But, it is good to make friends and stuff.

I have serious news fatigue, and I am just sick of all the bullshit, and I honestly don't give a shit anymore.

Can't believe I used to care about all this shit so much.

Good to know you though, buddy, and yeah, nice talking to you.

Hotel PoFo.

(The Eagles suck, but this song is, I don't know, whatever it is.)

#15191600
I imagine all the Greeks and the Romans and the Egyptians bitching about all the same shit we all bitch about.

Some shit just never changes.

I guess there was a time when I could be really angry about politics, without even recognizing my anger.

Maybe I am approaching a higher plane ;).

It is not worth being pissed about anymore.

It isn't good to be angry over shit you can't control anyway, but this has been a tough couple, few years, and I'm burned out, but I am also seeing that it was never worth being pissed off over this shit you can't control in the first place, and that shit just is what it is.


On the thread topic, I guess Leonard Cohen said it well, about America.

"I love the country, but I can't stand the scene."


#15191602
wat0n wrote:Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib are examples of the US gone wrong, actually. That doesn't mean the issue of Guantanamo is not improving and that prisoners have not been released ever since. That's far, far better than what's happened in Cuba itself, where this year's protests led to a hardening of the repression and hundreds of new prisoners, not less of them.

Have you given 2 thoughts about the prisoners in the American gulag?

The US locks up a quarter of the world's prisoners.

Is that not fucked up to you?

I have been to jail, and it is not a fun place.

Open your eyes.

America has nothing approaching any moral high ground when it comes to incarceration, but nothing short of a revolution can fix it.

America ran guantanamo and abu grahab, and they are still running guantanamo.

My jail was probably worse than guantanamo, 24 hour halogen lights, don't know what time it is, nothing to do except lay on a cement floor, if you can find a space, it was horrible.

And before you judge me, my charges were dropped, and I was innocent. The state considers me innocent, and all of my charges were dropped, all of both of them.

My advice is take all of that American propaganda and bullshit you've been taught your whole life, place it into a nutshell, and throw that nutshell into the river, because it is all bullshit.
#15191605
Democracy, Free Speech and the Rule of Law are the essential element of anti-fascism. And while they can never be absolutes, this doesn't excuse the US's enslavement and torture of of non American so called terrorist suspects. @Potemkin you suggested a while back that I was wasting my time by bringing up the case of Khalid Sheik Mohammed. I beg to differ. Now its arguable that virtually all politicing is a waste of time, but I would suggest bringing it up does have an effect and makes a lot of people deeply uncomfortable. You know you're having an effect when people are desperately trying to make you shut up.

My initial response to the American reaction to 9/11 was one of total and utter contempt. None of the nineteen hijackers were American citizens. The likelihood of Al Qaeda being able to repeat anything on the scale of 9/11 was negligible, yet Americans responded with total hysteria.

As a British person one notable moment for me was seeing Lindsay German of the Leninist-Trotkyist Socialist Workers Party and later leader of the anti war movement condemning the 9/11 attacks. I always defended 9/11 as a legitimate act of war. It was the cause, in this case Islam, that I condemned not the tactic. Osama, KSM, some official in the Pakistani ISI, who ever actually was in charge of this mission's tactic was exactly the same as the tactic of Winston Churchill in 1940 when he ordered the repeated bombing of civilian targets in Berlin. to goad and enrage the enemy into entering a battle in which they would suffer a decisive defeat. Both Osama and Winston proved wise tacticians. Both the occupation of Afghanistan and the German blitz of British cities were failures. It should be noted though that although a failure the German Blitz and particularly the attack on Coventry were inspirational to Bomber Command, who built upon the German's earlier work to perfect the art of fire bombing cities.
#15191614
Crantag wrote:Have you given 2 thoughts about the prisoners in the American gulag?

The US locks up a quarter of the world's prisoners.


It really depends.

For non-free countries, there is little difference between prison and normal population (e.g. North Korea, and to a lesser extent China)
Worse, such countries can boost that they "concern prisoners' human rights as much as everyone else" (I actually know there's a Chinese criminal drama TV series claiming exactly this).
#15191615
Rich wrote:The likelihood of Al Qaeda being able to repeat anything on the scale of 9/11 was negligible, yet Americans responded with total hysteria.


Will you not want to punish someone who has intentionally killed your loved ones?
Will a responsible government not want to punish someone who has intentionally killed people under their protection?

Whether the wrongdoer could repeat the feat is irrelevant.

IMHO if Politics_Obeserver was around he would have every reason to jump and lecture you.


Rich wrote:It was the cause, in this case Islam, that I condemned not the tactic.


Admittedly I hold similar view to them and some of those similar to them (e.g. ISIS).
They have wrong targets but what they do can be seen, at least, as a reference for strugglers.
#15191627
Crantag wrote:Have you given 2 thoughts about the prisoners in the American gulag?

The US locks up a quarter of the world's prisoners.

Is that not fucked up to you?

I have been to jail, and it is not a fun place.

Open your eyes.

America has nothing approaching any moral high ground when it comes to incarceration, but nothing short of a revolution can fix it.

America ran guantanamo and abu grahab, and they are still running guantanamo.

My jail was probably worse than guantanamo, 24 hour halogen lights, don't know what time it is, nothing to do except lay on a cement floor, if you can find a space, it was horrible.

And before you judge me, my charges were dropped, and I was innocent. The state considers me innocent, and all of my charges were dropped, all of both of them.

My advice is take all of that American propaganda and bullshit you've been taught your whole life, place it into a nutshell, and throw that nutshell into the river, because it is all bullshit.


Well, that's an interesting point - but don't drug consumption crimes represent the plurality of all incarceration cases in the US?

Because it also seems the US is moving onto changing its view about drug use in general...
#15191628
Fasces wrote:Not really. At this point, I think you just go around being a contrarian for its own sake.

They have weird blindspots on things like abortion access, but generally speaking, I see far less casual chauvinism and a more egalitarian mindset from Americans than most European countries and in terms of legal protections and subsidies, the US is definitely ahead of the curve. On other social issues, such as discussions/awareness of race or sexual orientation or gender identity, the US is also similarly ahead of the curve compared to most of the world, including developed countries.


Not at all trying to be "contrarian". I have yet to see a gender equality ranking where the US is on top. The US is not a world leader in that regard.

E.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Gender_Gap_Report

Image

Or here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Inequality_Index

Or take this LGBT social acceptance index:
Image

I frankly don't even understand where you get this from. The US was always somewhat behind Western Europe when it comes to gender and LGBT.

I guess when it comes to race the situation is different.
#15191634
It makes more sense to compare the US to Canada than to Cuba about certain things. But yes, I agree with @wat0n that the USA is basically a developing autocratic country in many respects too.

So, the argument was made that the Canadian version of Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo is the residential schools.

This is not true.

The Canadian residential school system is the Canadian equivalent of the US Indian Boarding School system. The USA had its own system that it does not talk about nor has made any attempt at dealing with.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/America ... ng_schools

Canada, and Cuba for that matter, have no version of Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo. The reason these two countries do not have any detention facilities for terrorists is because Canadians and Cubans do not go around bombing and invading countries and creating blowback.

Canada and Cuba do not invade other countries. They do not end up causing resentment which then turns into violence which then turns into terrorism. They do not need to then imprison “terrorists”.
#15191640
Pants-of-dog wrote:It makes more sense to compare the US to Canada than to Cuba about certain things. But yes, I agree with @wat0n that the USA is basically a developing autocratic country in many respects too.

So, the argument was made that the Canadian version of Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo is the residential schools.

This is not true.

The Canadian residential school system is the Canadian equivalent of the US Indian Boarding School system. The USA had its own system that it does not talk about nor has made any attempt at dealing with.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/America ... ng_schools

Canada, and Cuba for that matter, have no version of Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo. The reason these two countries do not have any detention facilities for terrorists is because Canadians and Cubans do not go around bombing and invading countries and creating blowback.

Canada and Cuba do not invade other countries. They do not end up causing resentment which then turns into violence which then turns into terrorism. They do not need to then imprison “terrorists”.


Cuba has something worse than Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib, used for its own dissidents rather than international terrorists as exposed by several human rights reports. After all, as you acknowledged yourself, Cuba needs to do this to stop opposition movements from succeeding getting a multi-party democracy ("a typical CIA means to get regime change", I recall you said).

Canada does not have these issues because the US does the dirty job for it, and for much of the West for that matter.

And the Indian boarding schools have largely been closed for a while, just like Canadian residential schools have been. Showing, again, both countries have been improving on these practices over time (can't say the same about Cuba, unfortunately).
#15191643
Pants-of-dog wrote:If anyone wishes to show evidence that any other country has detention facilities like this, please do so. To be clear, we are talking about detention facilities for non-citizens who do not get a trial and are held indefinitely where they are tortured.


Oh so it's okay if they have facilities for citizens where they are held without a fair trial and where they are tortured, like in Cuba or Chile under Pinochet?
#15191645
Pants-of-dog wrote:So the US is comparable to Chile under Pinochet.

Yes, I agree.

Both jailed political dissidents, both jailed people without trial, both attack leftists and Indigenous people.

Yes, the USA is similar to a capitalist dictatorship in the developing world. I agree.


I know reading comprehension is not your strong suit, at all, but it doesn't take more than elementary English to note the two analogous entities in my post are actually present day Cuba and Chile under Pinochet when it comes to the human rights of their citizens.

So tell me, why is it okay for a country to jail and torture its own citizens for political dissidence without giving them a fair trial? Note this definitely does not happen in the big, bad US nor in big, bad Canada.
  • 1
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
  • 19
"Whether we like it or not"

You are weird, why are you quoting me then? :lol[…]

If i were a celeb I wouldn't say anything politica[…]

1] It seems to be a lot easier to claim I make […]

I personally can't wait for a country known for i[…]