The Wuhan virus—how are we doing? - Page 136 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Provision of the two UN HDI indicators other than GNP.
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#15191530
Soooo. It is supposed to be a good thing that Swedes do not wear a mask?

Well. No wonder there is no Intertel chapter in Sweden.
#15191533
Just a reminder to everyone that Covid just surpassed the hispanic flue in the number of deaths. So if it manages to surpass the Civil war then Covid will be the largest die off event in US history.
#15191549
Doug64 wrote:You do understand the difference between droplet- and aerosol-spread disease, right? The difference is why all those plastic shields businesses have put up might be worse than useless--while they protect against droplets just fine, they also interfere with air circulation and so can cause exposure to the aerosol-carried virus to be increased. And guess what is the the primary means of spread for the Wuhan virus is?


Dude, your ass is very eloquent, you seem to talk out of your ass with so much ease.
The primary method of spread of covid 19 is droplet. There is strong evidence that it can also spread via aerosol, but it is not the primary method of spreading.
Before I dive further into this nonsense of stupidity that you are forcing me into that you will simply ignore let's point out the obvious.
If your concern is that Covid-19 is an AIRBORNE pathogen and that simple masks do not protect against covid-19, then that would mean that you advocate in favor of N-95 mask wearing for everyone in public, correct? And that you do not advocate to open non-essential businesses unless they have strict isolation policies, advanced ventilation systems and negative pressure environments?
I highly suspect that this is NOT the conclusion that you want to arrive to. Let me tell you something, if you start with the premise that COVID is mostly spread over aerosol particles, this is the conclusion that is the most logical.

Now... Droplets and aerosol are not referring to any magical properties of the medium of transport. Droplets and aerosol refer to the particle size of a water-based "particle" in the air. Droplet usually refers to larger sized particles that tend to fall to the floor quickly due to gravity, while aerosol refers to very tiny "particles" that because they are so small, they can bet kept in suspension in the atmosphere for much longer periods of time due to properties such as buoyancy. As you can imagine, this is mostly a spectrum, rather than a strict cut off. For instance:
Image
And as you can imagine. The larger the particle, the more virus it can carry. So there is an indirect correlation between the "particle size" and the "viral load" that can be delivered per "particle". Now, I am not familiar with any literature that has attempted to estimate the minimum "viral load" required to infect anyone, but we can make some reasonable assumptions nonetheless. For instance, it is not hard to imagine, that a covid patient directly coughing in your face without any sort of barrier to interfere with the droplets is more likely to result in your inoculation as compared to the same scenario with the person coughing on the other side of the room 10m apart.
Now.
There is evidence that covid can transmit via airborne, that is true, but the extent of how much this form of transmision contributes to the overall spread in the population is not really known, thought it is not thought to be the primary method.
Think about of terms of transportation.... I am capable of traveling on a submarine. But if you had to take a guess of how I commute to work, you are better off guessing im using a car, a bus or a train/metro.

To demonstrate my point. Let's look about another organism. Pseudomonas auruginosa. This is a bacteria that can cause pneumonia. There is a study suggesting that the bacteria can survive in aerosol particles https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4112489/. Do we routinely use N95 masks for p seudomonas? No. Do we routinely use regular masks for someone with pseudomonas pneumonia and/or skin infections? No. It is not the main method of transmission, and the viability of the pathogen does not necessarily mean that it can deliver sufficient quantity of viable pathogen to cause infection on healthy individuals (things might be different for other people at higher risk).

We have evidence that facemasks work, we even have evidence that faceshields work:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7891045/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7432258/

Frankly, I can provide far more evidence, links and material. But there is a little voice in my ear telling me that you will just shit all over this and go spread more nonsense.
#15191551
QatzelOk wrote:I read your post twice, and I'm still not scared. Even though you tried to scare me (and all readers).

Maybe you can incorporate scary images and end-of-days quotes from the usual suspects next time?


So the Swedish model is the one that you like then right? That means that Cuba, which has compulsory mask-wearing and is vaccinating kids and toddlers is doing the WRONG thing according to your values and beliefs. I just want a straight answer that I can later quote when you start spewing BS about how nice Cuba is, so which one is it going to be? :lol:
#15191604


Supported every single second of the protests today...

The Shine Of Rememberance is just a damn stone building. It's no sacred place at all, they're all not even buried there. That's just modernised idolatry. The Australia that those brave soldiers defended is long gone, they defended 1910s and 1940s Australia, not these modern woke SJW nutcase politicians idea of Australia. Most of those soldiers were Straight White Christians and would be horrified by what this country has become.

Fuck the police.
#15191646
Drlee wrote:Soooo. It is supposed to be a good thing that Swedes do not wear a mask?

Well. No wonder there is no Intertel chapter in Sweden.


That was a little bit of a joke. But my point is more that Sweden is an extreme in one end, while countries like France, Italy, Spain and so on is in the other. But the spread is far worse in the latter countries.

But Norway is probably a better example, since the spread is so extremly small there, even though relativly few people wear masks. Obviously there are a lot of factors which makes it a lot easier for Norway to keep it down compared to France, but the degree that masks effect it? I just dont see it.

Its a reasonable theory if you just look at the risk when comparing two people shaking hands with masks and two people shaking hands without masks all else equal.

But when looking at issues regarding society as a whole isnt a something you can understand through isolated cases such as this. There are tons of factors involved that you dont see and wont take into account.

This is why instead of trying to make some deduction based on a premise you should zoom out and look for patterns. So, basically the reversed way from "obviously masks protect, thats why people use them in healthcare".

Where can we see, on a macro level, the patterns that seem to confirm the theory that masks make a difference? This is still my question. Perhaps there are similar states within USA you can compare where the degree of maskwearing differs significantly? That would be interesting.

But looking at european countries I cant see any pattern whatsoever that suggests masks is is an effective solution. What happends when in terms of spreading the virus somebody eventually takes their masks off in public (perhaps to drink something)? What are the effect masks have on peoples behaviour (how carefull they are and so on)? You tend to ignore these questions and just narrow it down to some circular argument that masks matter because masks matter.
Last edited by boomerintown on 22 Sep 2021 15:52, edited 1 time in total.
#15191648
boomerintown wrote:That was a little bit of a joke. But my point is more that Sweden is an extreme in one end, while countries like France, Italy, Spain and so on is in the other. But the spread is far worse in the latter countries.

But Norway is probably a better example, since the spread is so extremly small there, even though relativly few people wear masks. Obviously there are a lot of factors which makes it a lot easier for Norway to keep it down compared to France, but the degree that masks effect it? I just dont see it.

Its a reasonable theory if you just look at the risk when comparing two people shaking hands with masks and two people shaking hands without masks all else equal.

But when looking at issues regarding society as a whole isnt a something you can understand through isolated cases such as this. There are tons of factors involved that you dont see and wont take into account if you try to base your understanding through this way.

This is why instead of trying to make some deduction based on a premise you set up you should look at whats actually seems to be going on and from that try to explain it. So, basically the reversed way from "obviously masks protect, thats why people use them in healthcare".

Where can we see the patterns that seem to confirm the theory that masks make a large difference. This is what I still wonder? Perhaps there are similar states within USA you can compare where the degree of maskwearing differs significantly? That would be interesting.

But looking at european countries I cant see any pattern whatsoever that suggests masks is a key solution. You can also ask what happends when somebody eventually takes their masks off in public (perhaps to drink something) or the effect masks have on peoples behaviour (how carefull they are and so on).


So what is your argument?
#15191650
boomerintown wrote:That I dont see any pattern on a macro level showing that masks matter in western countries.


Perhaps the reason you do not see any is because you have not looked.

Have you looked?
#15191653
Pants-of-dog wrote:Perhaps the reason you do not see any is because you have not looked.

Have you looked?


Yes, for instance in the data I showed previously. In 2020 the results were even more extreme.
Image

Maybe it does matter. But shouldnt you see some kind of pattern then?

Where did you look?
#15191658
@boomerintown SE Asia has been far more successful than Western countries in battling Covid, and that is likely partly due to mask use.

Mask use makes a difference whether you believe it, or not.

Largest study of masks yet details their importance in fighting Covid-19
Scientists conducted a randomized trial across 600 villages and more than 340,000 people in Bangladesh and found that even some adoption of surgical masks made a difference.
https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science ... 9-rcna1858
#15191659
Pants-of-dog wrote:Why would we see a pattern in that graph?

It does not take into account things like infection rates.

If this is the only place you looked, then no, you did not look for it.


Well, it is you who are making the claim. "It is important that people wear masks.", so really the burden of evidence is on you. And yes I am trying to find patterns, but I cant find it.

Image

But again, and this might be foreign to you, it is YOU who need to support your claims. Its not up to others to disprove you if you bring nothing to the table.
#15191663
Godstud wrote:@boomerintown SE Asia has been far more successful than Western countries in battling Covid, and that is likely partly due to mask use.

Mask use makes a difference whether you believe it, or not.

Largest study of masks yet details their importance in fighting Covid-19
Scientists conducted a randomized trial across 600 villages and more than 340,000 people in Bangladesh and found that even some adoption of surgical masks made a difference.
https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science ... 9-rcna1858


I am not talking about Asia. I specifically said in west, because our cultures are so extremly differet - especially in regards to epidemics - that it says virtually nothing to compare western countries to them.

If it mattered, it should be clear within west.
#15191664
boomerintown wrote:Well, it is you who are making the claim. "It is important that people wear masks.", so really the burden of evidence is on you. And yes I am trying to find patterns, but I cant find it.


No.

You made the argument that there is no “pattern on a macro level showing that masks matter in western countries”.

I then asked you if you had looked.

And now we see that you have not looked.

Image

But again, and this might be foreign to you, it is YOU who need to support your claims. Its not up to others to disprove you if you bring nothing to the table.


This seems to show that Sweden had high infection rates and low rates of wearing masks. This seems to provide evidence that there is a “pattern on a macro level showing that masks matter in western countries”.
#15191666
Pants-of-dog wrote:No.

You made the argument that there is no “pattern on a macro level showing that masks matter in western countries”.


That is not my claim. I said I cant find any patterns, and therefore I am sceptical to how much difference it makes.

Pants-of-dog wrote:No.

This seems to show that Sweden had high infection rates and low rates of wearing masks. This seems to provide evidence that there is a “pattern on a macro level showing that masks matter in western countries”.


If you think this is pattern I dont know what to say. It is one datapoint. You see patterns by looking at several datapoints. You find high spread country, but also several very low spread countries with extremly small level of mask wearing. Meanwhile you find several high wearing mask countries with large spread. If you seriously think you see a pattern on this image suggestion that mask wearing place a role I think this discussion is pointless.
#15191667
boomerintown wrote:That is not my claim. I said I cant find any patterns, and therefore I am sceptical to how much difference it makes.


Exactly.

Your claim is that you cannot find any patterns.

And I explained that this is because you are not looking for patterns.

If you think this is pattern I dont know what to say. It is one datapoint. You see patterns by looking at several datapoints. You find high spread country, but also several very low spread countries with extremly small level of mask wearing. Meanwhile you find several high wearing mask countries with large spread. If you seriously think you see a pattern on this image suggestion that mask wearing place a role I think this discussion is pointless.


Again, you are ignoring many factors. You cannot see a pattern because the information you are looking at does not, for example, account for social distancing.
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