[Pants-of-dog]

So we recognise that the US jails non-citizens without a trial and tortures them. We have no evidence in this thread that any other countries do this.

We should also recognise that the USA jails US citizens without trial as well.

In fact, this also happened in Guantanamo.

[boomerintown]

So we recognise that the US jails non-citizens without a trial and tortures them. We have no evidence in this thread that any other countries do this.

We should also recognise that the USA jails US citizens without trial as well.

In fact, this also happened in Guantanamo.

Indeed. The question is just what the alternative to USA as a "world police" is?

Perhaps it is the case that USA is the superpower that showed the least respect for human rights in the history of humanity except every other we have seen (including China today)?

[Pants-of-dog]

Indeed. The question is just what the alternative to USA as a "world police" is?

Perhaps it is the case that USA is the superpower that showed the least respect for human rights in the history of humanity except every other we have seen (including China today)?

The USA is not the “world police”.

For example, the US Support for Saudi oppression of Yemen does not involve any policing. And the US is constantly at war invading other countries.

Perhaps we would be better off without any superpowers at all.

[boomerintown]

The USA is not the “world police”.

For example, the US Support for Saudi oppression of Yemen does not involve any policing. And the US is constantly at war invading other countries.

Perhaps we would be better off without any superpowers at all.

Yeah, the world would be a better place with peace and respect, and so on. But this isnt the alternative.

The alternative if USA didnt exist would be that China and Russia would have a far bigger influence in the world as a whole, which I dont think would be better.

Unfortunatly we seem to be going in this direction, and the disaster in Afghanistan was a sign from USA to both its enemies and allies that it is questionable exacly how reliable the US is today.

[wat0n]

So we recognise that the US jails non-citizens without a trial and tortures them. We have no evidence in this thread that any other countries do this.

We should also recognise that the USA jails US citizens without trial as well.

In fact, this also happened in Guantanamo.

It's funny that you mention it, as the only (former) US citizen in Guantanamo, then transferred to military prisons in the US mainland, actually managed to beat the USA gov't in court precisely on the grounds that he had a right to a fair trial:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdi_v._Rumsfeld

He was then released, stripped of his citizenship and deported to Saudi Arabia as a result.

Can Cubans in 2021 secure a release from jail under any procedural grounds? Or are they like Chileans under Pinochet, who would never manage to do anything even remotely like that once they were sent to jail? Note that in both cases these are the guys who are lucky enough not to simply be tortured, executed without trial and then be simply disappeared by their own governments in their own countries.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yeah, the world would be a better place with peace and respect, and so on. But this isnt the alternative.

The alternative if USA didnt exist would be that China and Russia would have a far bigger influence in the world as a whole, which I dont think would be better.

Unfortunatly we seem to be going in this direction, and the disaster in Afghanistan was a sign from USA to both its enemies and allies that it is questionable exacly how reliable the US is today.

You seem to be arguing that we should merely accept the injustices that the US forces on the rest of us, because you imagine a scenario where someone worse does the same thing.

In other words, you are accepting that the US does bad things, and justifying because you do not want others to do these same bad things.

——————-

So yes, we do see the US imprisoning its own citizens without a trial for political reasons.

They did it in Guantanamo. They did it in Iraq.

And it is perfectly legal:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa ... _Year_2012

The most controversial provisions to receive wide attention were contained in subsections 1021–1022 of Title X, Subtitle D, entitled "Counter-Terrorism", authorizing the indefinite military detention of persons the government suspects of involvement in terrorism, including U.S. citizens arrested on American soil. Although the White House[11] and Senate sponsors[12] maintain that the Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF) already grants presidential authority for indefinite detention, the Act states that Congress "affirms" this authority and makes specific provisions as to the exercise of that authority.[13][14] The detention provisions of the Act have received critical attention by, among others, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), the Bill of Rights Defense Committee, and some media sources which are concerned about the scope of the President's authority, including contentions that those whom they claim may be held indefinitely could include U.S. citizens arrested on American soil, including arrests by members of the Armed Forces.[15][16][17][18][19] The detention powers currently face legal challenge.

[wat0n]

Clearly the Hamdi case shows that's not true, regardless of whatever yearly defense authorization act you may cite. It also does not say anything about the "without trial" part.

[Godstud]

So tell me, why is it okay for a country to jail and torture its own citizens for political dissidence without giving them a fair trial? Note this definitely does not happen in the big, bad US nor in big, bad Canada.

This does happen in USA.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/omar-khad ... l-1.782774

[Pants-of-dog]

Please note that because it is a military action against terrorists, a trial is not needed when arresting detainees, and even if a trial is held, the military can refuse to disclose any documents or evidence for security reasons.

From a practical perspective, there is no trial system where the government is held accountable for human rights violations.

[boomerintown]

You seem to be arguing that we should merely accept the injustices that the US forces on the rest of us, because you imagine a scenario where someone worse does the same thing.

In other words, you are accepting that the US does bad things, and justifying because you do not want others to do these same bad things.

If I was an american Id see it as my responsibility to do something about this. But I am not.
I do however prefer USA to China or Russia as an ally and Id be a lot more concerned about Russia, who trespass into our air space and have advanced military practices simulating an invasion of one of our islands, if it wasnt for US military presence in Europe.

(https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/6198898)

[wat0n]

Please note that because it is a military action against terrorists, a trial is not needed when arresting detainees, and even if a trial is held, the military can refuse to disclose any documents or evidence for security reasons.

From a practical perspective, there is no trial system where the government is held accountable for human rights violations.

The Hamdi case, which set a precedent that American citizens enjoy the right to a fair trial even if caught as a result of a military operation, arose from a military action, actually. He was caught in Afghanistan, during an operation to stop a jailbreak. The US also caught another US citizen, but he wasn't sent to Guantanamo and got 20 years in a civilian court.

[wat0n]

This does happen in USA.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/omar-khad ... l-1.782774

He's not an American citizen.

[QatzelOk]

So tell me, why is it okay for a country to jail and torture its own citizens for political dissidence without giving them a fair trial? Note this definitely does not happen in the big, bad US nor in big, bad Canada.

Canadian mining companies operate all over the world. They are "Canadian" in the sense that they are chartered in Canada, a country that ethnic-cleansed great swaths of land in order to extract minerals and transport them.

Today, the Big Bad USA army and Big Bad French army... are very active in areas where "Canadian" mining companies extract minerals at fire-sale prices from increasingly polluted countries with worsening civil problems.

These consequences are the calling card of the USA and its opportunistic allies.

[Pants-of-dog]

If I was an american Id see it as my responsibility to do something about this. But I am not.

Your personal position is noted.

Please note that this is not an argument.

I do however prefer USA to China or Russia as an ally and Id be a lot more concerned about Russia, who trespass into our air space and have advanced military practices simulating an invasion of one of our islands, if it wasnt for US military presence in Europe.

(https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/6198898)

Your personal preference is noted.

Please note that this is not an argument.

————————

Since the records for these military courts are sealed for national security reasons, it is impossible to argue that all these prisoners have been let go, since there is no way of verifying the truth.

Much like the black sites that the CIA has operated in the past and probably still does so today.

[wat0n]

When Guantanamo prisoners are released, they aren't just let go to do whatever they want in the US or whatever. They are sent to another country, under what's basically an extradition - whatever happens after is up to the receiving country, but they are usually wanted for some crime there and jailed.

That means the releases of Guantanamo prisoners are, in fact, verifiable. Just consult the receiving countries.

[Pants-of-dog]

And once again, there would be no record if these prisoners are still not released from whatever black site they are in.

Speaking of being detained without any sort of trial or even being charged, has there been any movement on the Customs and Border Protection agents who detained protesters by shoving them into unmarked vans and holding them without charges for hours?

Because that is comparable to dictatorships too.

[wat0n]

I thought you were talking about Guantanamo. Changing the goalposts much?

Can't comment about black sites that may or may not exist and which any country may or may not have. My understanding is that the prisoners in the US black sites were moved to... Guantanamo.

I also cannot comment about whatever incident you are talking about since there is no link to read. If these people were eventually released then it's hardly important or comparable to what happens in actual dictatorships.

[Pants-of-dog]

Please note that my arguments about indefinite detention without trial mentioned more places than just Guantanamo. For example, I also mentioned Iraq.

And this is because Camp X-Ray, and now Camp Delta, are or were not the only detention sites for whomever the US government kidnapped.

And then there is the practice of extraordinary rendition.

[Tainari88]

I am critical of the USA government first of all. The people who are governed by corrupt governments filled with plutocrats and lie their asses off about being democratic and fair should be always criticized.

If you don't let them know that they are in the wrong and have pressure put on them there is no incentive for them to change and negotiate or be deposed from power positions. That is just basic political pressure 101.

The USA has some nasty and inhumane history. They squander resources and are a problem with their need to control the world through occupying armies and bases and pressuring nations through banks controlled by a USA based or backed military industrial complex. They need competition and they need to understand that they can't continue the way they are without some heavy consequences.

[AFAIK]

I don't understand this discussion about countries not mentioned in the OP. Just because Pinochet committed crimes in Chile that doesn't excuse similar behaviour today. You may as well argue that we shouldn't prosecute serial killers and rapists because of all the ones who got away with it previously.