The Wuhan virus—how are we doing? - Page 137 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Provision of the two UN HDI indicators other than GNP.
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#15191672
XogGyux wrote:So the Swedish model is the one that you like then right? That means that Cuba, which has compulsory mask-wearing and is vaccinating kids and toddlers is doing the WRONG thing according to your values and beliefs. I just want a straight answer that I can later quote when you start spewing BS about how nice Cuba is, so which one is it going to be? :lol:

I haven't been to Cuba in years, and so I'm not really sure what is going on there right now or why. So I'm sticking to logic to see what is going on, not clashing narratives that I have to "believe in" once I've chosen the ones I like.

Image

Logic can't help a person once they've crawled too far into the hole of narrative, like you have with this post above.

Try to crawl back out, and then try to focus on the importance of *our emperor's shiny new clothes* that are not being worn in Sweden.
#15191682
QatzelOk wrote:I haven't been to Cuba in years, and so I'm not really sure what is going on there right now or why.

Thank you. I will save this quote for the future, I am sure I'll have plenty of opportunities to use it. We will see :lol: .

So I'm sticking to logic to see what is going on, not clashing narratives that I have to "believe in" once I've chosen the ones I like.

Image

Logic can't help a person once they've crawled too far into the hole of narrative, like you have with this post above.

Try to crawl back out, and then try to focus on the importance of *our emperor's shiny new clothes* that are not being worn in Sweden.
RE: THE WUHAN VIRUS—HOW ARE WE DOING?

The irony. I don't think you realize you are in fact not sticking to logic. While serious arguments could be made about certain vaccines mandates and/or closures. There is virtually no logical argument that can be made against mask use. Zip, zero. Even if their effect was grossly overstated, and they only prevent a minuscule number of infections, they are fairly unobtrusive, cheap, and easily accessible, there is no believable LOGIC against their widespread use. You are well immersed in this narrative of absolute personal freedom and ignoring logic and reason.
#15191691
Pants-of-dog wrote:Cubans are already vaccinating kids as young as three.

2, is what I read, which is not the point. I don't really have anything againstt vaccinating kids so long as it is reasonably well tested and properly done. I have said prior on prior tests that I am against compulsory/obligated vaccines in theory, though I am certainly open to consider scenarios where they might be enforced, I just think it is better for the sake of society/community if it remains something that is encouraged and voluntary because it helps maintain trust. That being said, I can see times where it may make sense to enforce it.
Also, I see a difference between enforcing (e.g. with some sort of governmental assistance, you will get the vaccine even if it means you will get detained and get it in prison and/or remain in prison if you don't get it ) and "encouragement"/cohersion (e.g. You don't get goverment benefits if you are not vaccinated, you don't get to work for the federal goverment if you are not vaccinated, you don't get medicare/medicaid if you are not vaccinated, you don't get tax breaks X or Y if you are not vaccinatted, etc).

For the record, I don't see anything wrong in theory with what Cuba is doing. To my understanding, their vaccines remain voluntary and people seem to want to get them. I cannot comment on their efficacy or lack of it simply because I have not read any literature in their efficacy. While I have a general distrust of the government, the society as a whole, I believe are fairly trustworthy and while I have not lived there in a long time and things have changed I don't really have anything to suspect wrongdoing at this time. Assuming vaccines are reasonably efficacious and safe, I think the way they are proceeding in terms of masks mandates and vaccine use is fairly reasonable.
I am capable of analyzing the system independently of the system's actions. But it has become clear to me, that some members, including @QatzelOk have much interpreting gray area and think they live in a black and white world, which it is fantasy.
That is why, as I suspected, he was unable to tell me that he disagreed with the Cuban's Approach, instead of tried to weasel out of a proper answer, but I still think I got what I wanted out of him.
#15191784
@Doug64 , on our continuation of our conversation on the ''common good'', you replied;


I suspect most of our disagreement isn't over what constitutes the "common good" but whether it should be mandated by the government.


I depends on what you think ''government'', is, and where it's Authority comes from. I think we ought to discuss that. Note, I don't believe in ''natural law'' or ''ethics and morality'' in a secular sense.

There's a difference between recognizing universal principles and requiring that those principles be applied the same way in all cases. Murder is always the unjustified deliberate ending of a human life, but the circumstances can cause what is considered murder to vary wildly.


Oh, I'm a firm believer on that, in that there's a degree of culpability in most cases for wrongdoing.


SO we come back to a simple question: if someone can avoid serious risk of dying by being vaccinated and chooses not to, why am I obligated to alter my own behavior in order to protect them? Why am I morally required to be more concerned about their health than they are?


There is a real simple answer; ''do unto others as one would have done unto you''. If you had it, You wouldn't want to wish it on anyone, even your worst enemy. You wouldn't want others to give it to you, and you would want them to take medicines that would either mitigate or destroy the threat. Similar thinking applies to masks. There are 24 hours in a day, wearing a mask for 20 minutes isn't going to hurt you and it might reduce transmission, certainly better than doing nothing about transmission at all!
#15191805
@colliric Who cares if some old forgetful woman doesn't have her papers. She's still free to travel home make and make one there.

Right?


Right?!


You talk about freedom in one breath and then are a misogynistic Nazi in the next. stuff it!
#15191808
colliric wrote:https://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1440897443285979136?s=19

Papers please....


If everyone got vaccinated there would be no need for papers. Because everyone would be vaccinated, and we wouldn't have to deal with idiots protesting for their right to DDOS intensive care units with their bodies.

colliric, listening to some rightwing dipshit: Huh, yes, I guess spermjacking is a real phenomenon that affects many men and could happen to me so I care about it. Spermjacking is as important an issue as abortion.

Also colliric: I must do more research before I listen to my country's medical experts. I will not be vaccinejacked. I totally promise to do the research btw.
#15191816
The way countries divide its populations based on vacine passports is something that worries me, and I dont think anyone will benefit it in the long run.

What holds a nation together is always a sense of belonging, that you are a "canadians", "germans", "french" or whatever it might be. An issue such as a pandemic needs to be a common project for the entire population, and you need to be tolerant even towards those who dont vaccinate.

Regulations - aswell as the lack of regulations - needs to be universal. I can understand that certain jobs, such as in healthcare and elder care, and maybe teachers, needs to require vaccination. But banning people from entering restaurants and other places is a very dangerous route.

Before these somewhat populistic and short term solutions are applied one should ask, what are their consequences for the sense of a national identity and trust in the state?
#15191819
The threat of vaccine passports made vaccination rates triple in my home province in Canada.

As already mentioned, once most people get vaccinated, this vaccine passport stuff will disappear.

Be socially responsible. Don't be a cunt. Get vaccinated.
#15191823
SpecialOlympian wrote:If everyone got vaccinated there would be no need for papers. Because everyone would be vaccinated, and we wouldn't have to deal with idiots protesting for their right to DDOS intensive care units with their bodies.

colliric, listening to some rightwing dipshit: Huh, yes, I guess spermjacking is a real phenomenon that affects many men and could happen to me so I care about it. Spermjacking is as important an issue as abortion.

Also colliric: I must do more research before I listen to my country's medical experts. I will not be vaccinejacked. I totally promise to do the research btw.


Stop being such a sarcastic bastard.... Honestly.

As already mentioned, once most people get vaccinated, this vaccine passport stuff will disappear.


..... That's exactly what they said about Income Tax.
#15191831
Godstud wrote:The threat of vaccine passports made vaccination rates triple in my home province in Canada.

That was their purpose. There were no health benefits to this law at all. Vaccinated people can carry and spread COVID.

As already mentioned, once most people get vaccinated, this vaccine passport stuff will disappear.

...just two weeks to flatten the curve. :lol:
#15191837
@boomerintown What holds a nation together is always a sense of belonging, that you are a "canadians", "germans", "french" or whatever it might be. An issue such as a pandemic needs to be a common project for the entire population, and you need to be tolerant even towards those who dont vaccinate.


Why do I need to be "tolerant" of someone who is willfully endangering me, my family and my friends? I should have nothing but disdain for such a selfish and deluded person.

Regulations - aswell as the lack of regulations - needs to be universal. I can understand that certain jobs, such as in healthcare and elder care, and maybe teachers, needs to require vaccination. But banning people from entering restaurants and other places is a very dangerous route.


Your word is "dangerous". What is dangerous about excluding someone who could spread disease from entering a restaurant? What specifically is the danger?

Before these somewhat populistic and short term solutions are applied one should ask, what are their consequences for the sense of a national identity and trust in the state?


Couple of answers. The US has virtually no sense of national identity anymore. We have democrats and republicans or liberals and conservatives. Nothing more. Patriotism is dead unless the term is used in support of a political party. It is not much different in other countries these days. The EU has reduced national identity to a mere curiosity or linguistic oddity.

As for "trust in the state". Tell me how a vaccine mandate would make a thinking person mistrust the state? Be specific. Consider while you are doing this that every single state/school district in the US has vaccine mandates and has for generations.

@boomerintown I am waiting for you to stop parroting right wing talking points and actually explain why you believe this stuff you are saying. This is a forum where we explain why we believe what we believe. Have at it.
#15191842
@Drlee

First of all, parroting right wing talking points? This issue have nothing to do with an economic left-right scale.

The dangers I am referring to is risking to undermine the sense of unity within the country (to the degree that it exist), creating rifts, dividing people into categories where you remove individual freedom for some, eroding trust in the state, and so on.

But I agree that USA is in a unique position right now, with extreme polarization that makes it hard to talk about unity, so I am not claiming to know what is best for you. But dont talk about the EU. The EU has nothing to do with national identity, and the national identity is very strong in most european countries. Certainly in Sweden.

And to answer your first question, I think we should be carefull with the language we use. People can refuse vaccination for different reasons. Perhaps they dont believe in it or the dangers of covid, perhaps they are afraid of the vaccine, and perhaps they just want to know more before they vaccinate. I think very few people intend to harm others.

My position is that I think people should be vaccinated and expect most to do. But that we should be vary carefull in violating any persons individual freedom, and with individual freedom follows the choice of not getting vaccinated. Instead we should encourage the ones who are sceptical but open up society for everyone.

But I also understand this might not be realistic everywhere, and it is also a cultural issue. In some countries you might have to put safety above freedom to a certain degree in order to protect people.

I dont believe there is any universal solution everyone can use. I just want to raise arguments for the position I advocate, but I understand that there are many good arguments against it too.
#15191855
colliric wrote:
Papers please....


If the worst thing that is happening is that people cannot go to a fast food place, then this is not a newsworthy issue.

Probably saved her from eating some of that crap.

———————

@boomerintown

If a nation ends up dividing itself because of a vaccine passport, then that nation is simply too weak to last in the modern world.

In reality, you will just some angry white conservatives protesting and the police will stand there and watch them for a while and then everyone will go home.
#15191857
Pants-of-dog wrote:
If a nation ends up dividing itself because of a vaccine passport, then that nation is simply too weak to last in the modern world.

In reality, you will just some angry white conservatives protesting and the police will stand there and watch them for a while and then everyone will go home.


I am not saying the nation will divide itself because of a vaccine passport, I am saying that it undermines the sense of unity when you divide people.

I also think you should be carefull in applying the american situation to other country. In Sweden its mainly (almost exclusivly i think) first and second generation migrants in segregated areas who dont vaccinate. Because of lower trust in state functions, less knowledge about how to vaccinate and perhaps why you should vaccinate. They sometimes dont follow national media; instead taking in news from their home countries and language skills are often a problem.

In order to integrate them into society the last thing we should do is probably to restrict their freedom because they didnt vaccinate. A classic "angry white conservative" perspective in USA?
#15191861
boomerintown wrote:I am not saying the nation will divide itself because of a vaccine passport, I am saying that it undermines the sense of unity when you divide people.


Then we should ask who are the people being divisive about vaccine passports.

I also think you should be carefull in applying the american situation to other country. In Sweden its mainly (almost exclusivly i think) first and second generation migrants in segregated areas who dont vaccinate. Because of lower trust in state functions, less knowledge about how to vaccinate and perhaps why you should vaccinate. They sometimes dont follow national media; instead taking in news from their home countries and language skills are often a problem.

In order to integrate them into society the last thing we should do is probably to restrict their freedom because they didnt vaccinate. A classic "angry white conservative" perspective in USA?


I did not bring up any of this, so is this a new argument that you would like me to look at?
#15191864
Pants-of-dog wrote:I did not bring up any of this, so is this a new argument that you would like me to look at?


You said that the only thing you get are angry white conservatives protesting.

I am simply pointing out that there is a reality outside of USA and other perspectives to take into account and that while this might be true in USA, it says nothing about the reality in other countries. Something to have in mind.
#15191866
boomerintown wrote:You said that the only thing you get are angry white conservatives protesting.


Yes, that is what I meant in terms of the actual real impact this will have in US society: almost none. The inly impact will be a few angry white protesters who will have no negative relationships with the police.

I am simply pointing out that there is a reality outside of USA and other perspectives to take into account and that while this might be true in USA, it says nothing about the reality in other countries. Something to have in mind.


And I was not discussing that.

So I assume you are making a new argument here. Feel free.
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