The Wuhan virus—how are we doing? - Page 140 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15192084
I've been recently just been exposed to COVID, but tested negative, although two of my anti-vaxxer, anti-masker co-workers tested positive and are now under quarantine with their families. I'm so very tired of selfish and stupid people around me all day every day who don't even have the decency to do the right thing when it truly counts. We do not have a political problem, we have a socio-cultural/spiritual problem.
#15192092
boomerintown wrote:A driving license is something you need to take, in order to show that you can drive a car.

You could make the same argument. "A vaccine passport is something you need to take, in order to show that you are not the vector of a bioweapon"

Now, while we can go back and forth regarding what might be scientifically known regarding the likelihood of spread of this disease among a fully (or close to fully vaccinated population, i.e. does vaccine have any effect on spread). The fact of the matter that sometimes we have to make decisions before we have all the data. The risk of imposing this inconvenience and then later finding out that it had less than expected effect on spread vs the risks of non-imposing it and just having thousands die are certainly in favor of placing the mandates.

Like others have said, society (and the individuals living in society) have long agreed, since the begining of civilization, that many rights should be curtailed. In this society, you dont enjoy the right to murder people, to take whatever property you wish or to forcefully copulate with anyone you please regardeless of said person's wishes. But it goes more mundane than the criminal, like others have pointed, you don't have the right to smoke everywhere, to go naked on most places or to jerk off while waiting for the train to arrive. Vaccines mandates are not new either, when I came to this country, because my country of origen did not keep adequate records, I was "FORCED" to get a bunch of vaccines, such as Hepatitis, HPV, tdap and MMR and my work requires me to do annual TB checks, to get the flu (and covid) vaccine and checks me for hepatitis titters (and would mandate vaccine if they fall low).

None of this is new. The hysteria of a few conspiracists is not worth breaking up with common sense approach to civilization/society.
#15192093
My manager refuses to get vaccinated. She says she has a weak immune system. She rarely works in the office. It feels like I must watch operations in the office and I am the go-to accounting person. But she is the accounting manager aside from HR manager. She is enjoying higher pay than me and hiding away at home. My father says she is detached from everything.

I don't know how long she can keep operating like this. It feels like I have to manage myself and I keep tabs on my colleagues and other staff. Most of the time it feels like she is away from her computer, ignoring emails and not present.
#15192096
@colliric Nothing I said was hypocritical or condoning abuse. I said if you thought it was child abuse and did NOT report it, then you were in fact the condoning it.

Making a snide comment to the parents isn't going to solve any problem. You were being a "Karen". Your opinion was not asked for, and your opinion is based on what you believe, and not on actual fact.

Your idea of "abuse" might be a far cry of what abuse actually is. Making children do things that they do not want to do, and what other kids might not have to do, is what parents do every day. That is why I do not really believe you are a parent. You would know this, if such were the case.

If other parents do not care enough for their child to make them wear a mask, then that's their problem. I see small children wearing masks all the time. This shows the parents want to protect them and the people around them. It does not harm a child to wear a mask. Your saying so contradicts reason, logic and facts. I doubt the child would have to wear the mask even an hour, for a family trip to a mall.

As @XogGyux pointed out, children cry and have tantrums. This is also sign of poorly disciplined children, and not child abuse, as you were implying. You also made no mention of them striking a child in such a way as to indicate child abuse.

Making a 5 year old child wear a mask is not child abuse. It is neither psychological or physical abuse.

I made my son change a shirt, when we were going out, and he had a little fit when he was 5 years old. He wanted to wear a different shirt that wasn't appropriate for going to the temple/Wat, in. Do you think that scarred him for life? You imply it would. That's bizarre to say the least, and laughable, at best. :knife:

@MistyTiger Your manager sounds like a problem. You should talk to HR about her. It sounds like she is avoiding her job and responsibilities to you and the company that you work for.
Last edited by Godstud on 25 Sep 2021 02:01, edited 1 time in total.
#15192097
boomerintown wrote:National identity will always be based on lies in a sense, but the lies often become true when enough people believe in them.

Of course, it's normal for Italians to believe "a little lie" about their nation (best food), or Germans to believe a few little lies about Germany (best philosphers).

But when the entire existence of a people as a nation... is the lie itself... you don't have a nation at all. Just a group of employees doing jobs for Central Command. Like the armies that invade and occupy a territory.

It is with a shared belief in the concept of national unity nations exist...

No. It is with a shared belief in some concept of national unity (that has been fed to them) that the STATE can exist. That's why the STATE hates nations so much - because they give the lie to the STATE as primary unit of human cooperation.

Spain can't help but "detest" Catalunya, Canada can't help but detest "Québec" at some level. This is because the STATE attempts to pass itself off as "a nation" in order for the oligarchy to be able to skim more money from a larger population base.
#15192099
annatar1914 wrote:I've been recently just been exposed to COVID, but tested negative, although two of my anti-vaxxer, anti-masker co-workers tested positive and are now under quarantine with their families. I'm so very tired of selfish and stupid people around me all day every day who don't even have the decency to do the right thing when it truly counts. We do not have a political problem, we have a socio-cultural/spiritual problem.


The reality is, there is a very tiny percentage of "true believers". Unfortunately, most of these people are just sheeps following the lies of a wolf in a sheep's costume.
First I tell you... the VAST majority of my covid patients are unvaccinated.
Then I ask, how many of them are truly against vaccines? Well, I make it a habit of recommending it to all my patients upon discharge. So far, the vast majority have shown to me that they are highly motivated to get it, certainly not showing to be "hardcore anti-vaxxers". They failed to get it out of lazziness or out of innertia or out of misinformation, rather than true conviction.

I had 1 diffult patient last month. The spouse was very pushy regarding alternative methods of treatment. I took my time to explain all the available evidence, I sent her all the articles I had reviewed including my hand-written annotations and we exchanged daily text messages. When the patient eventually got discharged, despite I no longer being this patient's doctor, for over a month, the spouse would continue to text me and give me updates and ask my opinion because I had won their trust.

This week, my partner alerted me that one of the sickest patient in the ICU had a difficult family. Apparently, on prior days the family had called administration, fought intensivists, nurses and made scenes because "we were killing the patient by not trying ivermectin" Today this patient's family members is our ally, trust us and agrees with our plan.

Most of these people are not true believers in this nonsense. The irony is that they are becoming the fuel that makes the "media" entertaining.
#15192102
@XogGyux - only about 5% of people are leaders rather than followers (“wolves” rather than “sheep”). The other 95% simply want someone else to tell them what to believe and what to do. They are not “true believers” in anything. If you work on them, you can convince them of anything and get them to do anything. You are a responsible member of the 5%, whereas guys like Alex Jones et al. are irresponsible members of the 5%. They manipulate and use the sheeple for their own benefit.
#15192114
Potemkin wrote:@XogGyux - only about 5% of people are leaders rather than followers (“wolves” rather than “sheep”). The other 95% simply want someone else to tell them what to believe and what to do. They are not “true believers” in anything. If you work on them, you can convince them of anything and get them to do anything. You are a responsible member of the 5%, whereas guys like Alex Jones et al. are irresponsible members of the 5%. They manipulate and use the sheeple for their own benefit.

Thank goodness that commercial media and billionaires have been there for us all along, warning us to not listen to the bad guys who want to manipulate millions of suckers.
#15192119
XogGyux wrote:The reality is, there is a very tiny percentage of "true believers". Unfortunately, most of these people are just sheeps following the lies of a wolf in a sheep's costume.
First I tell you... the VAST majority of my covid patients are unvaccinated.
Then I ask, how many of them are truly against vaccines? Well, I make it a habit of recommending it to all my patients upon discharge. So far, the vast majority have shown to me that they are highly motivated to get it, certainly not showing to be "hardcore anti-vaxxers". They failed to get it out of lazziness or out of innertia or out of misinformation, rather than true conviction.

I had 1 diffult patient last month. The spouse was very pushy regarding alternative methods of treatment. I took my time to explain all the available evidence, I sent her all the articles I had reviewed including my hand-written annotations and we exchanged daily text messages. When the patient eventually got discharged, despite I no longer being this patient's doctor, for over a month, the spouse would continue to text me and give me updates and ask my opinion because I had won their trust.

This week, my partner alerted me that one of the sickest patient in the ICU had a difficult family. Apparently, on prior days the family had called administration, fought intensivists, nurses and made scenes because "we were killing the patient by not trying ivermectin" Today this patient's family members is our ally, trust us and agrees with our plan.

Most of these people are not true believers in this nonsense. The irony is that they are becoming the fuel that makes the "media" entertaining.


@XogGyux ;

Good news perhaps. Maybe there is more ignorance than malice, but one owes it to themselves and to other people to be informed about things that directly impact on the world around them, to be willing to examine the truth of things.
#15192122
When lives are at risk, ignorance(willful ignorance as it so often is in regards to this pandemic), is very much malice. It is not excusable in any way.
#15192125
MistyTiger wrote:My manager refuses to get vaccinated. She says she has a weak immune system.


That's a valid medical exemption for not getting the vaccine, since it also could overwhelm her as it relies on the immune system being strong and learning to fight back.

She has probably been advised as such by her own doctor.

It feels like I must watch operations in the office and I am the go-to accounting person.

Yep. That's what happens when your boss has a medical exemption.

But she is the accounting manager aside from HR manager. She is enjoying higher pay than me and hiding away at home. My father says she is detached from everything.

Your father doesn't have all the information, and neither do you. At least she didn't leave the job and really force you to have much more work.

I don't know how long she can keep operating like this. It feels like I have to manage myself and I keep tabs on my colleagues and other staff. Most of the time it feels like she is away from her computer, ignoring emails and not present.


Thats simply the usual benifits of working from home. Advocating she be fired for normal "working from home" behaviour is pretty stupid when most people in the world are doing that at the moment. Does she have kids?
#15192154
QatzelOk wrote:Of course, it's normal for Italians to believe "a little lie" about their nation (best food), or Germans to believe a few little lies about Germany (best philosphers).

But when the entire existence of a people as a nation... is the lie itself... you don't have a nation at all. Just a group of employees doing jobs for Central Command. Like the armies that invade and occupy a territory.


No. It is with a shared belief in some concept of national unity (that has been fed to them) that the STATE can exist. That's why the STATE hates nations so much - because they give the lie to the STATE as primary unit of human cooperation.

Spain can't help but "detest" Catalunya, Canada can't help but detest "Québec" at some level. This is because the STATE attempts to pass itself off as "a nation" in order for the oligarchy to be able to skim more money from a larger population base.


I must say I dont really understand your position fully, mine is however that the national identity is a social construction that becomes true if people believe in it and that in turn allows for the nation-state which in my opinion is the best way to organize a society. And basically it serves those in power. It can be a king who wants to wage war on others, but it can also be a democratically elected parliament. And in that case it can be the best protection ordinary people can hope for against oligarchs. But this is a pretty complicated and relativly OT discussion so I dont think this is the thread for it.

And by the way, its not a lie that the best philosophers (historically) are german. ;)

Anyway, have I missed this or did anyone answer? How far are the people who advocate this willing to push this vaccinepass idea? How much of society should be restricted for those without? For how long will it be neccessary if new variation of covid spreads new waves?

XogGyux wrote:The reality is, there is a very tiny percentage of "true believers". Unfortunately, most of these people are just sheeps following the lies of a wolf in a sheep's costume.
First I tell you... the VAST majority of my covid patients are unvaccinated.
Then I ask, how many of them are truly against vaccines? Well, I make it a habit of recommending it to all my patients upon discharge. So far, the vast majority have shown to me that they are highly motivated to get it, certainly not showing to be "hardcore anti-vaxxers". They failed to get it out of lazziness or out of innertia or out of misinformation, rather than true conviction.


This in my opinion shows that there are other meassures than vaccinepassports we should try first. Information, obviously. But also: set up dates for people to vaccinate, send them a letter, email, sms and so on that says "you got this time booked for vaccination, show up at this adress and bring ID". I think tons of people will show up.
#15192225
colliric wrote:That's a valid medical exemption for not getting the vaccine, since it also could overwhelm her as it relies on the immune system being strong and learning to fight back.

She has probably been advised as such by her own doctor.


People who are immunocompromised have been advised to get the vaccine actually. I don't know if she has talked to her doctor. But I know that she does not trust conventional doctors. She prefers natural medicine and holistic medicine.


Yep. That's what happens when your boss has a medical exemption.

I'm not sure it qualifies as a medical exemption.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the only people who shouldn't get vaccinated are those who had a severe allergic reaction, called anaphylaxis, immediately after a first vaccine dose or to a component of the COVID-19 vaccine.

Although an individual may be allergic to a given ingredient in one vaccine that is not present in another, allergies to vaccine components are extremely uncommon, according to disease experts.

"The only real exemption I can imagine is severe allergic reaction mainly in the Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vaccines, but they are very, very rare — like one in a million," Dr. Peter Chin-Hong, an infectious disease physician at the University of California San Francisco, told CBS MoneyWatch. Individuals are observed for 15 minutes post jab to monitor for these sorts of allergies.https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-vacc ... exemption/


She might not know if she is allergic to any of the ingredients in the vaccine. She is just so against it. I doubt she has read anything about the ingredients.

The last time we spoke about the vaccine she worried that her immune system would attack itself and she'd die. She has no way of knowing if that will happen. It's speculation out of fear and worry.


Your father doesn't have all the information, and neither do you. At least she didn't leave the job and really force you to have much more work.


It's about her behavior, her leadership or lack of leadership. She should be more involved with her job rather than relying on lowly employees to be her eyes and ears. The only reason I am helping her out so much is that I need this job, need to be on her good side. Believe me, it was VERY difficult to get to her good side. She is very suspicious, picky, paranoid and fussy, needy and overly sensitive. I admit to playing to some of these aspects of her personality to win her trust. And my playing worked. And I dislike manipulation but it worked, still earning my pay so it was worth it, despite the bitter taste in my mouth.



Thats simply the usual benifits of working from home. Advocating she be fired for normal "working from home" behaviour is pretty stupid when most people in the world are doing that at the moment. Does she have kids?


She is one of the top managers in the company. If the company were more formal, her title would be COO. She reports directly to the CEO. She needs to oversee operations along with the owners. She has one adult son who is very independent so he cannot be her excuse. If the company flops belly up in the next 3 years, part of the blame is on her. So she should be more responsible than other WFH staff. A COO should not be slacking off and ignoring most of the lowly staff and workers in the company. She should take her job more seriously.
#15192228
Godstud wrote:@MistyTiger Your manager sounds like a problem. You should talk to HR about her. It sounds like she is avoiding her job and responsibilities to you and the company that you work for.


She is a problem. But I cannot talk to HR about her. She is HR. The bad thing about small businesses is that they combine departments. She manages both HR and Finance. If I talk about her to anyone in the company, I might as well just quit. It will not end well for me. But that is not what I want to do right now. I do not want to lose my insurance and pay.
#15192229
annatar1914 wrote:I've been recently just been exposed to COVID, but tested negative, although two of my anti-vaxxer, anti-masker co-workers tested positive and are now under quarantine with their families. I'm so very tired of selfish and stupid people around me all day every day who don't even have the decency to do the right thing when it truly counts. We do not have a political problem, we have a socio-cultural/spiritual problem.


I've had this several times too.

I'm just so sick of this in my life.
#15192246
boomerintown wrote:This in my opinion shows that there are other meassures than vaccinepassports we should try first. Information, obviously. But also: set up dates for people to vaccinate, send them a letter, email, sms and so on that says "you got this time booked for vaccination, show up at this adress and bring ID". I think tons of people will show up.

And why not both at once?
Let me ask you this, when you go into a plane, do you want your pilot to have "received a sms or email" saying "your pilot test has beeen scheduled for wednesday" or do you prefer this pilot actually completed the test?
And by test I mean any sort of test, pilots have to undergo rigorous health tests to minimize the risks that they are going to have a heart attack, a stroke, a seizure or some other health condition midflight. Do you think it is right for society to infringe on the personal freedoms of the pilots?

The reason we do this is because that 1 pilot could be a deciding factor on a plane crashing killing hundreds of people.
A single covid infected person can be the cause of hundreds and thousands of infection that can lead to numerous deaths.

This is an spectrum. On one side of the spectrum we have "do nothing" or "recommend the vaccines". On the other end of the spectrum we have "Forcefully mandate the vaccines". Let me be clear, while I do not currently support the most "draconian" end of "forcefully mandate the vaccines" (e.i. either you get it or you go to jail), I don't think this is out of the table either and I can see scenarios where this should be considered.

Remember, the government can already deprive you of your freedom for numerous things... you steal a car worth 2K you can go to jail. Meanwhile, you fail to get a safe/free vaccine and get severely sick, run up a medical bill of several thousand dollars that you are not going to pay while possibly getting a dozen other people equally sick, and somehow society has to respect your freedumb? The idiots not getting the vaccines are contributing to the lengthening of this pandemic, the US have enough vaccines that 100% of the population could be vaccinated by next month and we could be starting to resume regular life by chritsmass. Antivaxxers are robbing the rest of the country of a normal life.
#15192282
Political Interest wrote:I've had this several times too.

I'm just so sick of this in my life.


@Political Interest ;

We'll get through this my friend. I'm in a much better place psychologically about the situation than I was yesterday. Best thing to do is take it all one day at a time. Yesterday is over, and tomorrow is a new day with new possibilities.
#15192300
annatar1914 wrote:We'll get through this my friend. I'm in a much better place psychologically about the situation than I was yesterday. Best thing to do is take it all one day at a time. Yesterday is over, and tomorrow is a new day with new possibilities.


Yes, my friend, God willing.

All we can do is survive each 24 hours. But this is life, always has been, always will be.
#15192367
Political Interest wrote:Yes, my friend, God willing.

All we can do is survive each 24 hours. But this is life, always has been, always will be.


@Political Interest ;

And also maybe, in the larger context of what we've been talking about for some time, you and I, we can see it in a better light. Consider that this Plague has been a real check on the hubristic world of Modernity, a warning of sorts. We have only to look upon the world of late 2019, before COVID-19, and we were headed for even worse disasters than COVID-19 by several orders of magnitude, i'm absolutely convinced of that.
#15192550
XogGyux wrote:And why not both at once?
Let me ask you this, when you go into a plane, do you want your pilot to have "received a sms or email" saying "your pilot test has beeen scheduled for wednesday" or do you prefer this pilot actually completed the test?

..//..

Remember, the government can already deprive you of your freedom for numerous things... you steal a car worth 2K you can go to jail.


I want licenses for airplane pilots and obviously parliaments (usually not governments) can decide about new laws. What have any of those to do with my position on vaccine-passports?

This isnt the topic for a deeper discussion about meta ethics and how we should understand positive and negative freedom and how we should weight it against other values and so on. That would be interesting for another topic though.

But lets forget that for a while, and look at it from a pragmatic point of view. So I ask you again, what is the long term game of these vaccinepassports? Do you assume enough people will vaccinate when they are in place? And if that doesnt happend, then what?
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