The Wuhan virus—how are we doing? - Page 141 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Provision of the two UN HDI indicators other than GNP.
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#15192554
A lot of people will vaccinate if not being so presents even the slightest hurdle. A lot of posts on the nonewnormal subreddit went like this:

"My university is requiring that I get vaccinated."

"That sucks, bro. Here's a list of other schools. If that's not enough here's a guide on how to live off the grid and dig your own well in the woods."

"Nah I just got vaccinated."
#15192560
boomerintown wrote:I want licenses for airplane pilots and obviously parliaments (usually not governments) can decide about new laws. What have any of those to do with my position on vaccine-passports?

This isnt the topic for a deeper discussion about meta ethics and how we should understand positive and negative freedom and how we should weight it against other values and so on. That would be interesting for another topic though.

But lets forget that for a while, and look at it from a pragmatic point of view. So I ask you again, what is the long term game of these vaccinepassports? Do you assume enough people will vaccinate when they are in place? And if that doesnt happend, then what?


Well, the reality is that businesses have had the opportunity to put their own restrictions as they see fit. Governmental agencies getting ahead of the curve and providing assistance with the anticipated need of verification of vaccination is not really such a dramatic action. It makes sense for companies, we have seen what a dramatic effect fear of covid, let alone the actual disease, can have on businesses performance. So it is natural, that they would want their costumers assured that a vacation to paris is not going to end up with a 30d stay in a hospital ICU and a 300k medical bill. A reasonable way to offer some degree of assurance is to ensure your passengers are vaccinated, masked.

This is also a deterrent. Not getting your vaccines can impact your daily life as much as the daily lives of others around you.
#15192571
Vaccine Passports....

To use an @Igor Antunov word , : "Nothingburger".

You'll have to show it once at work. You might, very infrequently, have to show it somewhere that is a large even with many people(eg. Convention). It will only be a thing until enough people have been vaccinated that it isn't an issue anymore.

They mentioned vaccine passports in AB and vaccination rates tripled. It's like what @SpecialOlympian said in his last post.

Get vaccinated and make vaccine passports unnecessary.
#15192583
Godstud wrote:Vaccine Passports....

To use an @Igor Antunov word , : "Nothingburger".

You'll have to show it once at work. You might, very infrequently, have to show it somewhere that is a large even with many people(eg. Convention). It will only be a thing until enough people have been vaccinated that it isn't an issue anymore.

They mentioned vaccine passports in AB and vaccination rates tripled. It's like what @SpecialOlympian said in his last post.

Get vaccinated and make vaccine passports unnecessary.


Nah apparently it's all ending here Dec 1st. i.e even the unvaccinated will be able to access all services including airlines.

Now I get to sit back, relax and see what these experimental vaccines do to people in a few years time.
#15192585
Igor Antunov wrote:Now I get to sit back, relax and see what these experimental vaccines do to people in a few years time.
Your statements to this effect have already been disproven and found to be false in every way, shape, and form. Stop lying and spreading false information. It makes you look more foolish than your already appear.... if that's at all possible.
#15192590
Godstud wrote:Your statements to this effect have already been disproven and found to be false in every way, shape, and form. Stop lying and spreading false information. It makes you look more foolish than your already appear.... if that's at all possible.


@Godstud ;

Not to mention that false information can kill or cripple for life, or disrupt life in ways that can make a misery of existence, of deep sadness.
#15192591
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(That last cartoon would work better with a swastika, since the Biden administration is following the fascist model more than the communist one, but it still gets the point across.)

So another week, and it looks like for the US at least, the worst is past with the rolling 7-day average of cases peaking around September 1st and the number of deaths peaking around the 14th:

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Godstud wrote:Unless you compare it to it's direct neighbours, Norway and Finland, who did spectacularly, by comparison.

I can see why you, and others wanted, to compare Sweden to USA ...

If the European Union as a whole was on the list it would come in at 36th, seven ranks above Sweden, with Portugal, France, Spain, Italy, & Belgium all even higher, but Sweden is doing so catastrophically bad.

But I haven't been comparing the US to Sweden, other than having them on the same list. I just find the need some have to talk down the performance of the country that's 15th out of the 27 EU nations for total deaths per million, and 20th for the current deaths per million over the past week--currently, Hungary, Denmark, Poland, Netherlands, Czechia, Finland, & Luxembourg are the only EU nations with lower death rates--to be rather problematic.

JohnRawls wrote:Just a reminder to everyone that Covid just surpassed the hispanic flue in the number of deaths. So if it manages to surpass the Civil war then Covid will be the largest die off event in US history.

Just out of curiosity, how do the deaths per million numbers compare?

XogGyux wrote:The primary method of spread of covid 19 is droplet. There is strong evidence that it can also spread via aerosol, but it is not the primary method of spreading.

And for the actual current science: How the Coronavirus Spreads: Biggest Threats Are in Air, Not on Surfaces. And that's based on the CDC--while its "advice" might be ludicrous (as illustrated by its refusal to consider the protection provided by the disease itself, once you've recovered), you can probably trust the actual numbers it publishes.

Doug64 wrote:SO we come back to a simple question: if someone can avoid serious risk of dying by being vaccinated and chooses not to, why am I obligated to alter my own behavior in order to protect them? Why am I morally required to be more concerned about their health than they are?

annatar1914 wrote:There is a real simple answer; ''do unto others as one would have done unto you''.

Yes, "as you would have them do unto you," not more than you would have them do unto you." I don't think others have a moral obligation to care about my health more than I do.
If you had it, You wouldn't want to wish it on anyone, even your worst enemy. You wouldn't want others to give it to you, and you would want them to take medicines that would either mitigate or destroy the threat. Similar thinking applies to masks. There are 24 hours in a day, wearing a mask for 20 minutes isn't going to hurt you and it might reduce transmission, certainly better than doing nothing about transmission at all!

And if I chose not to get the vaccine and then caught the Wuhan virus and died, the responsibility would be mine for the decision I made--a clear case of negligent suicide (as opposed to negligent homicide).
boomerintown wrote:National identity will always be based on lies in a sense, but the lies often become true when enough people believe in them.

Who was it that said that a nationality is any group that is cursed with, or wishes to be cursed with, a foreign office? I can't remember.

annatar1914 wrote:I've been recently just been exposed to COVID, but tested negative, although two of my anti-vaxxer, anti-masker co-workers tested positive and are now under quarantine with their families. I'm so very tired of selfish and stupid people around me all day every day who don't even have the decency to do the right thing when it truly counts. We do not have a political problem, we have a socio-cultural/spiritual problem.

It sounds like your co-workers made their choice and suffered the consequences. Outside of the fact that they are home instead of at work (assuming they can't work remotely), is it any business of yours?
#15192592
@Doug64 ;

Once again, showing that we're living in two realities here only one of which is right...

Yes, "as you would have them do unto you," not more than you would have them do unto you." I don't think others have a moral obligation to care about my health more than I do.



Again, you seem to think that duties and responsibilities begin and end with your own atomized individuality, that a web doesn't exist between us all in which everything we do has a reaction upon everyone else.

And if I chose not to get the vaccine and then caught the Wuhan virus and died, the responsibility would be mine for the decision I made--a clear case of negligent suicide (as opposed to negligent homicide).


Oh, but what if you permanently damaged or killed others because of your ''choice''? You like all Libertarians make your individual self-autonomy your God. See what your Idol does for you and everyone else yet?

Ah, and then here comes a retort about my personal experience recently;


It sounds like your co-workers made their choice and suffered the consequences. Outside of the fact that they are home instead of at work (assuming they can't work remotely), is it any business of yours?


I'll tell you. Ripples in a pond...

Past several weeks, my 81 year old mother has been preparing for me to take her to see her two brothers and one sister. All in their 80's, all living in elderly assisted living housing. My mother hasn't seen them for almost two years, out of fear.

When I said I had been exposed by my co-workers to COVID-19, she spent these past few days in a deep fear and anxiety that we'd have to quarantine and she'd have to reschedule her plans for another time.

Did I mention they are all elderly? >:

I look after my old and ailing parents in addition to my work, I have tried to keep them and the rest of my family safe during this Plague. It may not seem like such a big deal to you, an inconvenience I went through past few days as my mother was wondering anxiously if she'd ever see her siblings in this life again. Maybe someone like you can explain to her how much more important one's freedom to kill or be killed, maim or be maimed, is, or how your freedom trumps hers even though she was the one who did the responsible thing and cared enough about others to get her vaccines, to mask up and social distance. Yeah, the stupid and selfish win again under your narrative, I get it, and the terror my family went through means little.

I promised I wasn't going to get angry at your response. But I lie. Fuck this satanic ''freedom'' of yours, which always somehow manages to be the freedom of the Strong to trample the Weak with their goddamned cloven hoofed feet. The elevation of Error and the Truth to the same neutral playing field. Church of Christ and Temple of Satan, same rights and liberties...

Where is Right and Wrong in your miserable equations and statistics and ethics? What about Good and Evil? Duties and Responsibilities to each other, to the society from which all of us derive immeasurable benefits ultimately from God Himself?
#15192593
Yes, @annatar1914, it's the freedom to be a selfish fool, who denies any responsibility for their actions that might impact the people around them.

Social responsibility is a dirty set of words to assholes, the like of which @Doug64 represents.

How dare you inconvenience them! Forget duties and responsibilities to society as a whole. It's all FREEDUMB, over common sense and human empathy for those around you.
#15192594
Godstud wrote:Yes, @annatar1914, it's the freedom to be a selfish fool, who denies any responsibility for their actions that might impact the people around them.

Social responsibility is a dirty set of words to assholes, the like of which @Doug64 represents.

How dare you inconvenience them! Forget duties and responsibilities to society as a whole. It's all FREEDUMB, over common sense and human empathy for those around you.


@Godstud ;

Indeed. Thank you.

And of course I'm concerned about my co-workers, I've known them for decades, they've been my friends. But they weren't thinking about me or my family, or even their own until the very last moment when they were forced to get tested under the circumstances. And maybe they'll be fine when they come out of quarantine. But what about the people I don't know, who came into contact with them at some point? Are they going to be alright? I hope so.

When this Plague ends, and it will, I'm going to have to look again at some of my business and personal relationships...
#15192596
Igor Antunov wrote:If you're vaccinated and still fear the virus then please kindly go sit in the corner and reconsider your life choices.
After being vaccinated it doesn't mean that your responsibility to other people ends. I don't expect someone of your ilk to understand that, though. :knife: It might require some human empathy that you are incapable of somehow displaying. You and @Doug64 are alike in that aspect.

Igor Antunov wrote:Maybe next time don't opt into a dysfunctional experimental vaccination program.
Stop lying about the vaccines. Your claims have been disproven time and time again. You only make yourself look truly stupid by saying the same falsehoods, repeatedly.

The vaccines are not experimental. You are a fool to think so, after being exposed to facts that prove otherwise.
#15192598
Igor Antunov wrote:If you're vaccinated and still fear the virus then please kindly go sit in the corner and reconsider your life choices. Maybe next time don't opt into a dysfunctional experimental vaccination program.


@Igor Antunov ;

How about you go sit in a corner and blow it out of your ass, the shit that comes out the other direction when it comes to this subject anyway... :roll:

I fear for other people, and I detest lies.
#15192599
A well-known leader in the Australian aboriginal community has died 6 days after receiving his second Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine. Bevan Costello, an indigenous elder, got his second shot on September 9th in a special event to promote COVID-19 vaccine acceptance among indigenous people. The ‘Elder’ died 6 days later on Wednesday, September 15th of a sudden heart attack. His death has sent shockwaves through his community.

Bevan Costello, who is an elder of the Cherbourg aboriginal community in Queensland, received his shot while being interviewed by Australia’s ABC NEWS. “I feel more confident now that I’m fully vaccinated that if I come into contact with COVID I should be OK because I’m a diabetic.” Bevan said. “A lot of my people have been hesitant because of a misunderstanding of the information, mostly on social media.”

His sudden death on Wednesday September 15th, 6 days after his second shot, has created more hesitancy among the indigenous people to get vaccinated. The South Burnett and Cherbourg indigenous communities were shocked upon hearing the tragic news. “I know that he will be remembered with absolute fondness by so many people in Queensland—not only in Cherbourg, Murgon and the South Burnett district but across the wider Indigenous community in Queensland,” a community member said.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-10/ ... /100445986
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-16/ ... /100466064

6 days after his second clot shot. Poor guy.
#15192611
An old person dies of a heart attack and so @Igor Antunov blames a vaccine.

Correlation doesn't mean causation.

Heart attacks are not a side effect of the vaccines. You're like those people who blamed anything and everything on the vaccines and were proven to be full of shit. You made these claims earlier in this thread, and they were proven to be false and base don misinformation.

In the wake of idiots like you making stupid claims, the Aussie gov't put this out:
COVID-19 Vaccines
Mythbusters and frequently asked questions

https://www.healthywa.wa.gov.au/~/media ... tsheet.pdf

If someone died BEFORE they got vaccinated, you'd be trying to find some way to link it to the vaccinations.

Facts do not support your LIES.
#15192613
When you break things down by county, you get a better look at the result of not getting vaccinated. Even Red states have Blue areas, but if you go county by county, the difference becomes stark:

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#15192620
Doug64 wrote:
And for the actual current science: How the Coronavirus Spreads: Biggest Threats Are in Air, Not on Surfaces. And that's based on the CDC--while its "advice" might be ludicrous (as illustrated by its refusal to consider the protection provided by the disease itself, once you've recovered), you can probably trust the actual numbers it publishes.

This is a copy and paste from your own article that you linked:
The fucking article that you linked wrote:Masks, distancing still a priority indoors for unvaccinated

Also:
Another takeaway from the CDC's latest update on COVID-19 transmission: Masks are still an important tool in indoor settings, especially if you are unvaccinated or not yet fully vaccinated. (Some experts encourage masks for everyone in indoor public spaces, particularly if you are going to be around unvaccinated people, but the CDC on May 13 updated its guidelines to say that fully vaccinated individuals no longer need to wear a mask indoors, except in certain situations like in health care settings or on planes, trains, buses and other forms of public transportation. They should also be worn where required by local businesses and workplaces.)


And of course:
If an infected person wears a mask, then the “rate of release of these aerosol particles in an indoor environment can be much lower,” Corsi explains, which means there's essentially less virus in the air to be inhaled by others. Masks can also protect the wearer by blocking fine droplets and particles from being inhaled.


This is, in fact, not a rebuttal to my point. It is a shame that you are not even reading the very sources you post.
You are fucking deluded.
#15192637
Godstud wrote:Vaccine Passports....

To use an @Igor Antunov word , : "Nothingburger".

You'll have to show it once at work. You might, very infrequently, have to show it somewhere that is a large even with many people(eg. Convention). It will only be a thing until enough people have been vaccinated that it isn't an issue anymore.

They mentioned vaccine passports in AB and vaccination rates tripled. It's like what @SpecialOlympian said in his last post.

Get vaccinated and make vaccine passports unnecessary.


This is an interesting assumption. But what if you are wrong? What if less people choose to vaccinate the third time, in order to stop the spreading of the Delta-virus. Perhaps as a result of decreasing trust in the state due to meassures considering too far going and the means used to enforce these meassures.

I am not saying this will happend, but Australia should be enough to realize that you cant just bet everything on the scenario you think will happend. I think its very possible that you will see increasing demonstrations against vaccinapassports and as a result of that increasing state violence to stop these demonstrations and as a result of this lower trust in the state and as a result of this more scepticism towards vaccination.
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