[Beren]

This may be a wise course of action on my part, since all current civilizational governance leads to war, genocide, and ecological ruin.

And it's all backed up by lies.

My bet is that you'd be more useful in opposition than in government anyway.

[Heisenberg]

Yes, I am negative or critical of the United States of America

I should clarify this refers to the USA as a state, and not everyday Americans. Having lived here for five years, I'm quite fond of Americans as people.

But on the world stage, the USA, much like the UK and the EU, is an almost entirely regressive force. I don't really know how you can look at America's foreign policy since the end of the Second World War and find much to admire.

[AFAIK]

But on the world stage, the USA, much like the UK and the EU, is an almost entirely regressive force.

Could you go into detail about the EU? Other than trade negotiations does it have a unified foreign policy of significance?

[Rich]

But on the world stage, the USA, much like the UK and the EU, is an almost entirely regressive force. I don't really know how you can look at America's foreign policy since the end of the Second World War and find much to admire.

There's loads to admire. Thank you America for all you have done!

The defence of West Germany and Western Europe.
The defence of Japan, Taiwan, Thiland etc.
The Korean war.
The Vietnam war, a valiant struggle that although lost, held back the totalitarian Communist fascist advance.
The deployment of Cruise in Europe to counter the SS20s.
Support for Pakistan and the Afghan Mujahedin against the Soviets.
Liberation of Grenada
liberation of Panama
Support for Israel
Removal of Saddam

That'll do for starters.

[Godstud]

@Rich You are sadly delusional. Pretty much everything you put on your list is a bunch of lies. Cute, though, that you are simple enough to think that the world should thank USA for being a shitty imperialist country and starting numerous wars resulting in millions of dead.

[Potemkin]

:lol: @Rich You are sadly delusional. Pretty much everything you put on your list is a bunch of lies. Cute, though, that you are simple enough to think that the world should thank USA for being a shitty imperialist country and starting numerous wars resulting in millions of dead.

Your belief in American Exceptionalism is touching, @Godstud, but misplaced. There is nothing special about the USA, either good or bad. Every civilisation of any importance for the past five millennia has been a shitty imperialist country and started numerous wars resulting in million of dead. As Walter Benjamin once lamented: "Every document of civilisation is simultaneously a document of barbarism." Why should the USA be any different?

[Heisenberg]

Could you go into detail about the EU? Other than trade negotiations does it have a unified foreign policy of significance?

Honestly, I'm mostly using "EU" as shorthand for the major European powers, rather than the organisation itself.

France, in particular, is incredibly destructive in Africa and the Middle East, and Germany did everything in its power to turn Greece into a beggar nation not too long ago.

All that being said, the EU is also essentially the political wing of NATO, and participates in the "G7", which has historically existed primarily to enforce continued western domination of formerly colonised countries, so I don't think it's quite accurate to say it only makes trade deals.

[Patrickov]

:lol: (Member Rich is) sadly delusional. Pretty much everything you put on your list is a bunch of lies. Cute, though, that you are simple enough to think that the world should thank USA for being a shitty imperialist country and starting numerous wars resulting in millions of dead.

For his mentioning of Taiwan alone, I strongly side with Rich in his post and condemns the words of both you, Potemkin and Heisenberg.

In particular, your words seem to suggest that the USA has been wrong in supporting Taiwan (despite them tactically accepting China as their ally in balancing against the USSR -- I see it as a mistake in some way), and implies that China has rights to conquer Taiwan.

[late]

Chose a piece of land that people live on, pretty much anywhere...

It's been fought over repeatedly, odds are atrocity was involved, often repeatedly.

Do we need to get better? Absolutely.

Take Taiwan as an example, the three way relationship we have with Taiwan and China is convoluted, complex, and bizarre.

But it works.

Diplomacy is the art of replacing bullets with words. That's what I want to see. After WW2 the West decided to use trade to bring nations closer together. Nations that do business don't usually go to war.

What I find amusing is that problems have solutions. But people have intellectual limits keeping them from finding those solutions. I suspect if we can't, then the species doesn't have all that long to survive.

[Godstud]

@Patrickov Stop making assumptions about what people think about things that we didn't even mention. No one mentioned USA and Taiwan. It's just dumb that you'd get that from what we said, and it's very disingenuous of you.

[Patrickov]

@Patrickov Stop making assumptions about what people think about things that we didn't even mention. No one mentioned USA and Taiwan. It's just dumb that you'd get that from what we said, and it's very disingenuous of you.

Rich did mention the USA played a part in preserving Taiwan (#15192802) and you called him delusional without making any particular quote (#15192804), so I think I am rational in assuming that you are condemning his whole message.

I am afraid the disingenuous person here is not me.

[late]

Rich did mention the USA played a part in preserving Taiwan (#15192802) and you called him delusional without making any particular quote (#15192804), so I think I am rational in assuming that you are condemning his whole message.

I am afraid the disingenuous person here is not me.

Or maybe both of you are using too broad a brush..

[Patrickov]

Or maybe both of you are using too broad a brush..

Fair enough.

Still, those people not recognizing the good deeds done by the USA irritates me.

[late]

Fair enough.

Still, those people not recognizing the good deeds done by the USA irritates me.

I've had to negotiate those turbulent political waters for over 40 years.

The trick is to point them in the right direction, when you can. I was listening to the radio earlier, and they were talking about one of the first lawyers to try and deal with Guantanamo. There are now over 600 lawyers working on it, but there was just a handful in the beginning.

But about 94% of the prisoners have been released, and he had a lot to do with it. More importantly, he fought it on the grounds that it was several kinds of wrong, and won.

As I always say, it's a fight. Don't get me wrong, I love these forums, and at 70, I don't have a lot of fight (or time) to work the issues. But I used to.

I am trying to work myself into getting into local politics. I hate local politics, always have. But it's even worse these days, landlords are financially raping their tenants, and City Hall doesn't say a word. City Hall also allowed this horrid situation to happen. They set zoning so tight that there was always more tenants than rents, driving the price to absurd levels BEFORE the pandemic created a big surge of people coming here to be safer.

Anyway.. yes, we've done a lot of good, but the reality is that we've been doing a lot of bad since the 1800s. We conquered Cuba, and held onto a little piece so we would have a military presence permanently in the Caribbean. Imperial ambitions...

[Pants-of-dog]

Fair enough.

Still, those people not recognizing the good deeds done by the USA irritates me.

The USA supported a dictatorship in Taiwan, from what I recall.

Specifically, the USA supported the Kuomintang during the White Terror.

Is that a good thing?

[Rich]

The USA supported a dictatorship in Taiwan, from what I recall.

Specifically, the USA supported the Kuomintang during the White Terror.

Is that a good thing?

Oh yes. A lot of the time its not been a choice between fascism on the one hand and democracy, free speech and the rule of law on the other. it was and often still is a choice between fascisms. We were absolutely right to side with Stalin's terror machine in WWII after Stalin was attacked by his former ally, Adolph Hitler. I see no reason to apologise for making this choice. In fact I'm critical of the United States, both for not entering the war earlier and for not landing in North Africa earlier once they did. Until the Soviet forces of Uranus met at Kalach in November 1942 it was vital to do all we could however modest to divert resources away from the Soviet theatre and keep the Soviet regime in being and at war.

But if it hadn't been for FDR's insane and wicked unconditional surrender demand then the Communists would have been no where near as powerful after WWII and we wouldn't have faced such unpalatable choices.

[Pants-of-dog]

Please note that openly supporting dictatorships and human rights abuses is exactly what people accuse communists of doing.

Pot, please meet kettle.

[QatzelOk]

My bet is that you'd be more useful in opposition than in government anyway.

All politicians should be "in opposition" before they get to try their hand at writing the rules. Not just me.

So this statement also suggests that we don't do politics correctly, often voting for pretty faces with no experience like Trudeau or Macron or Juan Guaido.

Or... old boys with decades of scams behind them like Biden or Hillary or Trump.

[Godstud]

@Patrickov I never mentioned the word "Taiwan" anywhere. Fuck your mealy mouth bullshit.

Still, those people not recognizing the good deeds done by the USA irritates me.

I acknowledge that the USA can do good things, but their foreign policy is warfare and misery the world over, and a few good deeds can't compensate for that, so I am not going to sit here and mention each individual good deed that they've done over the decades and pretend that millions of dead don't lie in the shadows of the wars they've engaged in.

@Pants-of-dog They always forget that the underlying cause of even their good deeds it for US to exert control.

[AFAIK]

Diplomacy is the art of replacing bullets with words. That's what I want to see. After WW2 the West decided to use trade to bring nations closer together. Nations that do business don't usually go to war.

I'd credit nuclear weapons with that. European powers leapt at the chance to fight each other during WWI despite having plenty of trade passing between them and didn't sincerely pursue peace until after nukes were developed.